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5/31-6/3 Red Sox @ Astros Series Thread
redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 2, 2018 17:02:52 GMT -5
I'm reading the posts and I really don't know what hell has broken loose. I don't see anybody hear saying the Sox aren't a good team or that they are going to miss the playoffs. I don't hear that they suck or that their manager should be fired or that half the team should be traded away. What exactly is brutal?
All I hear are some reasonable concerns going forward. Do you get a purple heart if you don't ever mention concerns or list any potential weaknesses that you worry could hurt the Sox' chances?
Those concerns are there win or lose, but when they win you're not going to talk about those concerns because it detracts from the joy of winning, but the concerns are still there, so when is it ok to talk about them?
2018 is a year where the talk is not going to be "are the Red Sox any good?". They're damn good. The question is "will they be good enough?" And you hope that going in to the playoffs the things you want to see are there, such as good health for Betts, Pedroia getting healthy, Sale being at his best, Price pitching like an ace, the bullpen having depth, the lineup having depth instead of being top-heavy, their catching situation more settled, JBJ's bat stabilized and a bunch of other questions and things to look for.
The sense of urgency is more this year, because this is the year the Sox have their core at their best, before the Yankees go on their spending spree, before key Red Sox players become free agents, and before the Sox have to rely on a really barren farm system to supply them with players for their own team of for another team for a deal for an impact player. This is a prospect forum. It's not hard to look down the road over the next two or three years and speculate what the system is going to produce. I don't see any potential Betts, Benintendis, Devers, Moncadas or any surefire starting pitcher. Dombrowski is going to have his work cut out for him. It's then we'll see how truly good a GM he is while the payroll, even without Hanley, doesn't have a ton of wiggle room, and the system is mostly depleted. So yeah, there's a pressure to win this year that doesn't exist most years.
This isn't like the Celtics who will likely be in it for the foreseeable future. It's more like the Patriots whose window is beginning to close in the next season or two.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 2, 2018 17:24:36 GMT -5
Yeah on Pedey....nobody wants to think it...no stud in the wings either. Holt has better adhesive than the others you mentioned to be sure but that is not great consolation as we lose that position badly to the Yankees...(as others). The Sox remind me a bit of the Cs. Of course Mookie and Martinez are great talents but the team is as a whole seemingly overachieving (20-17 since the fast start). They are starting to get significant injuries and, by necessity, adopting "next man up". Their tenacity is admirable but there is a pretty big talent dropoff (and no Scary Terry). We have no money to add talent, are not going to trade our core and have nothing of impact in our farm D-league. But Cora appears a baseball Stevens with his seemingly unflappable, intelligent, reasoned demeanor. He'll get the most from the players. They're 22-17 since starting 17-2. 22-17 is itself a 91-win pace. So yes, if you exclude the entire first eighth of the season, in which they played incredibly well, and arbitrarily choose the beginning of a losing streak to begin counting, then they are merely quite good. Another way to look at it: if they "only" play at a 91-win pace the rest of the season, they will end up at 98 wins. And yet another way to look at it: overall the Red Sox are on pace for 109 wins. That is [checks notes] good. Apparently two games has convinced this entire board that the Red Sox aren't competitive with the Astros. This is despite the fact that they, um, have a better record. Granted, without Mookie they probably are the worse team, but if his injury doesn't turn into anything catastrophic then all this doomsaying is just pure eeyoreism. My math was faulty so you are correct on the post strong start record. I do think that the Sox have overachieved a bit. When have we ever had a 109 win team?....So is this the historically greatest Sox team? Mookie and Martinez...Wow...way beyond expectations...career year stuff. The bottom third of the order hasn't been good, the prospects for material change there is not overwhelming and IF we are without Pedey for stretches going forward, and IF Mookie has a potentially serious or lingering injury (for which there was some intimation), well....From recall stomach muscle injuries seem to linger and Mookie puts a lot of torque in his swing. He'll need to get completely healthy. But hey let's hope none of those ifs materialize. To me this series is a bit like Celts at Golden State....a chance to measure. But yup I do skew to the negative sometimes....
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Post by incandenza on Jun 2, 2018 17:27:57 GMT -5
I'm reading the posts and I really don't know what hell has broken loose. I don't see anybody hear saying the Sox aren't a good team or that they are going to miss the playoffs. I don't hear that they suck or that their manager should be fired or that half the team should be traded away. What exactly is brutal? I count five different posters on page 9 of this thread who imply or say outright that the Red Sox cannot compete with the Astros. Nothing wrong to point out the challenges the team faces, nor to say that the Astros are a marginally better team, but to say we can't compete with them sure seems like some premature despair-wallowing, especially considering the Red Sox actually have a better record than the Astros.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 2, 2018 17:47:43 GMT -5
I'm reading the posts and I really don't know what hell has broken loose. I don't see anybody hear saying the Sox aren't a good team or that they are going to miss the playoffs. I don't hear that they suck or that their manager should be fired or that half the team should be traded away. What exactly is brutal? I count five different posters on page 9 of this thread who imply or say outright that the Red Sox cannot compete with the Astros. Nothing wrong to point out the challenges the team faces, nor to say that the Astros are a marginally better team, but to say we can't compete with them sure seems like some premature despair-wallowing, especially considering the Red Sox actually have a better record than the Astros. It seems to me the frustration is not merely losing the last two games with the Astros. It's losing 8 of the last 10 games to Houston, a team that you could potentially be facing in the playoffs. It's not out of the realm of possibility that the Sox continue to struggle against Houston this weekend. Justin Verlander is pitching as well as he has ever pitched and at this point we don't really know which David Price we'll get. And the Sox have to deal with Charlie Morton tomorrow. Their rotation is amazing. I still think the Astros bullpen can be had. The Yankees certainly took their liberties with that pen. And the Stros' lineup doesn't look as deep as it did last season. I think the losses that sting most for the Sox will be games with NY first and foremost and Houston secondly, because the memory of losing to them is still pretty fresh and you want to feel like the team has progressed beyond being the team that Houston treated like a doormat while winning 6 of 8. Hasn't happened yet and might not happen this series. Like I said, it's losing 8 of 10 and potentially getting swept 4 straight. This series is certainly not life and death but it is a measuring stick series and it's also a series that could dump the Sox back out of first place. My concern that is beginning to rare its head is the lack of depth in the lineup. I get the 22 million reasons why they dumped Hanley, but the joke was that he was dumped to activate Pedroia, who lasted all of 3 games, and now here they are trading in Hanley for Sam Travis, who has been awful at Pawtucket. Hope Adam Lind can be ready soon. Hanley wasn't playing particularly well overall, but his presence had them at 10 viable regulars for 9 spots (before Nunez got hurt and Swihart rusted I might have said they had 12 viable regulars for 9 spots). So naturally when they could dump Hanley, Betts goes down with an injury. They would have been better off had Pedroia stayed on the DL until he's completely ready....makes me worry about Pedroia. Twice last year Nunez came back before he was ready and now he's a shell of his former self. Hope Pedroia doesn't come back too soon again and that when he does come back, he's not a shell of himself. That would make me sad.
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Post by p23w on Jun 2, 2018 17:54:39 GMT -5
Lol the nationality of the RHP doesn't matter as much p33w. Just because you're right handed and Dominican, that doesn't mean that you're great at baseball. It does if your name is Pedro Martinez. Nationality is big with him. The fact that Severino is a Yankee does not.
Clemens changed Shillings career after giving him advice during the off season in Houston (circa 1991/2). Even Pedro Martinez had brothers who were right handed pitchers that never made it to the big leagues. Pedro's older brother was a decent major leaguer.
What matters is the talent and the ability to pitch in big situations. This team hasn't shown that they can do it yet against the very best of the competition (especially in the playoffs). Porcello and Pomeranz have shown to crumble in the playoffs, Price has shown to be inconsistent. Sale is always worn down by the time the playoffs begin. Eduardo has never made it through a whole year fully healthy. Not to mention that all of a sudden that this team can only put a competitive game with Houston only half the time, while being blown out in the other half they are playing them. Talent is good. Health, for most pitchers is paramount during the post season. Pitch count means a lot to guys like Sale and Price (as it was for Pedro). Guys like Ryan, Verlander, Clemens, Shilling seem less fazed by high pitch counts. This team can play with Houston. Missing Betts hurts a bunch. Pomeranz was not that bad. Sale had a brainfart in the first inning and was sabotaged by his defense in the fourth. It happens. The addition of JD scares Hinch (as is should). A healthy Red Sox team can play Houston heads up. Last year means squat.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 2, 2018 18:03:12 GMT -5
Yeah I mean, it's one thing if the Sox lost half or more of the games to the Astros by a run or two while keeping things close.
It's another thing that the Astros have completely blown doors against the Sox half of the time. They have beaten your beat pitching convincingly in every fashion (starting pitching [Sale especially] and bullpen), they also have shut down your offense with a expection of one or two games.
For the time being, the Astros are the better team convincingly until the Sox prove otherwise. It's demoralizing. You trade for a top 5 pitcher in baseball, he gets hit hard in two games versus this team. One of those times came when you needed him the most in the postseason.
I'll stop posting about it though. I really hate pointing out deficiencies with the Sox, hopefully things turn around.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 2, 2018 18:05:48 GMT -5
Pedro had more than one older great brother (who pitched), that was kind of my point with the nationality thing.
Pedro is willing to help anyone in baseball because he's an ambassador of the game. The Severino story is just highlighted because Severino actually made the strides to become dominant in this league.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 2, 2018 18:23:38 GMT -5
I doubt that there's any pitcher on the Red Sox pitching staff that Pedro won't help.
And for the record Ramon Martinez was an excellent pitcher. Some remember him at the end of his career helping the Sox out down the stretch in 1999, but he was trying to come back from an injury from which he never recovered. Prior to that he was the Dodgers ace (after Hershiser). He was really good. At the time it would have been hard to imagine that his skinny little brother who was much smaller could be better, but Pedro wound up being the best.
Ted Williams was similar to Pedro. He would even actually give some of the Yankees batters tips because he couldn't stand pitchers.
The Astros are a concern but lesser than the Yankees in my opinion because I really think whoever finishes first in the East will probably have the best record in the league. I hope to be wrong but I honestly think the Yankees will have the best record and that the Sox will be in the Wild Card game and that if they win that they will be facing the Yankees so ultimately I think the Yankees are the bigger priority.
If I'm wrong and the Sox finish first (great) then the odds are the Sox will have the best record and will wind up playing the Wild Card winner, which most likely would be NY. Either way it's likely NY in the ALDS. If they get past the ALDS, then odds are they'd play Houston in the ALCS, but that's further away and if they get past the Yankees, then it's all gravy anyways. I think if the Sox were to be able to beat NY the momentum could build up as they play Houston (Cleveland wouldn't beat Houston, would they?).
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Post by wildsox on Jun 2, 2018 18:33:02 GMT -5
Great Inning working the count making Verlander work then Nunez swings at the first pitch and fouls out. Geez
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Post by incandenza on Jun 2, 2018 18:35:13 GMT -5
Great Inning working the count making Verlander work then Nunez swings at the first pitch and fouls out. Geez Yeah, I was just admiring how they were working the pitch count and saw Nunez coming up and was like, "Welp, only one more pitch this inning." Sure enough. But hey, got a run off Verlander! Good start!
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Post by wildsox on Jun 2, 2018 18:38:59 GMT -5
Great professional at-bat by JD Martinez using the shift to his advantage
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 2, 2018 18:41:07 GMT -5
So Fox gets this game and then has a golf tournament run over. It was not as if we didn't have enough to hate Fox for already.
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bosox
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Post by bosox on Jun 2, 2018 18:43:11 GMT -5
Nice inning by Price.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 2, 2018 18:44:09 GMT -5
I'm reading the posts and I really don't know what hell has broken loose. I don't see anybody hear saying the Sox aren't a good team or that they are going to miss the playoffs. I don't hear that they suck or that their manager should be fired or that half the team should be traded away. What exactly is brutal? I count five different posters on page 9 of this thread who imply or say outright that the Red Sox cannot compete with the Astros. Nothing wrong to point out the challenges the team faces, nor to say that the Astros are a marginally better team, but to say we can't compete with them sure seems like some premature despair-wallowing, especially considering the Red Sox actually have a better record than the Astros. I honestly don’t know why the people you’re talking about watch baseball.
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bosox
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Post by bosox on Jun 2, 2018 18:45:39 GMT -5
So Fox gets this game and then has a golf tournament run over. It was not as if we didn't have enough to hate Fox for already. Agreed. Fox has it online via Fox Sports Go if you have an account with your cable company or dish. It also meant I had to connect the computer to the tv to watch it on the big screen.
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Post by jbuttah on Jun 2, 2018 18:48:11 GMT -5
So Fox gets this game and then has a golf tournament run over. It was not as if we didn't have enough to hate Fox for already. Agreed. Fox has it online via Fox Sports Go if you have an account with your cable company or dish. It also meant I had to connect the computer to the tv to watch it on the big screen. And what is that background noise that sounds like a swarm of metallic bees?
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 2, 2018 18:49:36 GMT -5
I doubt that there's any pitcher on the Red Sox pitching staff that Pedro won't help. And for the record Ramon Martinez was an excellent pitcher. Some remember him at the end of his career helping the Sox out down the stretch in 1999, but he was trying to come back from an injury from which he never recovered. Prior to that he was the Dodgers ace (after Hershiser). He was really good. At the time it would have been hard to imagine that his skinny little brother who was much smaller could be better, but Pedro wound up being the best. Ted Williams was similar to Pedro. He would even actually give some of the Yankees batters tips because he couldn't stand pitchers. The Astros are a concern but lesser than the Yankees in my opinion because I really think whoever finishes first in the East will probably have the best record in the league. I hope to be wrong but I honestly think the Yankees will have the best record and that the Sox will be in the Wild Card game and that if they win that they will be facing the Yankees so ultimately I think the Yankees are the bigger priority. If I'm wrong and the Sox finish first (great) then the odds are the Sox will have the best record and will wind up playing the Wild Card winner, which most likely would be NY. Either way it's likely NY in the ALDS. If they get past the ALDS, then odds are they'd play Houston in the ALCS, but that's further away and if they get past the Yankees, then it's all gravy anyways. I think if the Sox were to be able to beat NY the momentum could build up as they play Houston (Cleveland wouldn't beat Houston, would they?). You know what? I give the Red Sox the exact same chance in the playoffs whether they swept the Astros or if the Astros swept us for the entire season. It’s totally meaningless. This woe is us crap should stop. With neutral BABIP luck they probably won the last two games. I don’t even care if the Red Sox have to win the Wild Card game. I’m not going to spend 162 games whining about the Yankees and thinking the world will end if the Red Sox miss winning the division after winning 102 games. Life is too short to not enjoy an excellent Red Sox team.
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bosox
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Post by bosox on Jun 2, 2018 18:52:44 GMT -5
Agreed. Fox has it online via Fox Sports Go if you have an account with your cable company or dish. It also meant I had to connect the computer to the tv to watch it on the big screen. And what is that background noise that sounds like a swarm of metallic bees? I don't hear it on my connection.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 2, 2018 18:56:26 GMT -5
Agreed. Fox has it online via Fox Sports Go if you have an account with your cable company or dish. It also meant I had to connect the computer to the tv to watch it on the big screen. And what is that background noise that sounds like a swarm of metallic bees? Yeah, what is that? I've been hearing that on Fox broadcasts for years. They should do something about that!
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Post by jbuttah on Jun 2, 2018 19:02:37 GMT -5
And what is that background noise that sounds like a swarm of metallic bees? Yeah, what is that? I've been hearing that on Fox broadcasts for years. They should do something about that! The shot from behind the pitcher is too zoomed in as well. It feels claustrophobic. NESN and the college game on ESPN right now gives a bit wider view.
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Post by jbuttah on Jun 2, 2018 19:05:59 GMT -5
Small thing, but where was Benintendi going on that flyout. If he'd taken the proper position, might've held him to a double.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 2, 2018 19:07:29 GMT -5
Small thing, but where was Benintendi going on that flyout. If he'd taken the proper position, might've held him to a double. He was going to where the ball would have been if the park wasn’t built with forced ridiculous angles to make it “interesting”.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 2, 2018 19:12:50 GMT -5
Houston’s triple was hit 100 mph. JBJ just had a 107 mph out. That’s the story of this series.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 2, 2018 19:20:37 GMT -5
98 mph 366 foot 2 run home run for Houston because the Red Sox are cursed apparently again. Red Sox are the better team.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 2, 2018 19:30:50 GMT -5
Now Price can't contain Houston either. Wonderful.
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