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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 28, 2018 19:35:44 GMT -5
Ok you convinced me, Jaylen Brown not shooting well and Hayward being terrible coming back from injury and Roziers inability to be a real factor consistently off the bench is Kyrie’s fault. Trade him - time to move on. Clearly better off without him.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 29, 2018 14:52:22 GMT -5
Ok you convinced me, Jaylen Brown not shooting well and Hayward being terrible coming back from injury and Roziers inability to be a real factor consistently off the bench is Kyrie’s fault. Trade him - time to move on. Clearly better off without him. Not to mention that the idea would be to get Hayward and Horford more involved as playmakers, which they haven't been able to do. And Rozier is a terrible fit next to Kyrie anyway. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2018 11:50:40 GMT -5
sports.yahoo.com/celtics-search-identity-led-brad-stevens-toughness-decision-142051226.htmlAnother article saying the team playing this way isn't a surprise for an Irving lead team and how its the exact opposite of last years playoff team. How minutes are an issue. How Irving is calling out the young guys to the media for some stupid reason, yet he's the reason why they are playing different. Too much pressure my a##, they thrived in the preasure packed playoffs, it's not the preasure. My god he almost sounds like LeBron, we need more Veterans, 14 to 15 year ones. It's all them, not me. Great leader right there. A good leader chews them out in private and takes responsibility as the leader that he is at least somewhat at fault. LeBron didn't once throw his teammates under the bus last year in the playoffs even after he went off and they lost. It was I need to be better and he was! Our other Vets have all made comments, but aren't pointing the blame at least publicly. Go read the comments, plenty of people see that Irving has some issues, even though he's a great scorer. Given the way Irving is playing we don't have a great fit for SG. As I said before Smart kinda makes the most sense. Yet given his lack of shooting isn't close to perfect. Rozier is likely the best option offensively, he's the best shooter out of the bunch right now. He can create his own shot in a way Brown struggles with and he can run the offense. Yet its the worst fit defensively. Brown might be the best fit defensively, but he's the worst fit offensively of the three. He needs the ball and people to create for him. Like Don said he does let his D and overall play slip if not heavily involved. He was a different player in the 4th quarter of that Knicks game after they kept going to him in the third. Got that big steal that cut it to 3 points late in the game. I'd be highly interested if you keep starting Smart how Brown would play in place of Morris. As the article points out Irving likes leaning on Smart offensively and defensively. I get the offensive part. It's what I've been saying, allows Irving to focus more on just scoring and not worry about the team offense. The role he was great at in Cleveland. Scorer and secondary creator. The fact he finally sees that and seems to be kinda demanding Smart stays in the starting lineup is great news and a good first step.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 30, 2018 14:52:15 GMT -5
Given his scoring woes, couldn't Hayward be your primary distributor. Or more Horford doing so like he did last year? Then SG could be based on what you need most (not that we have a shooter to fill the role, which would be ideal).
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 30, 2018 16:53:11 GMT -5
Given his scoring woes, couldn't Hayward be your primary distributor. Or more Horford doing so like he did last year? Then SG could be based on what you need most (not that we have a shooter to fill the role, which would be ideal). umass is ignoring that whatever shortcomings Irving has as a playmaker could be mitigated by getting Smart, Hayward and Horford more involved in that role. Their inability to do so consistently thus far is on Brad or on those guys who are all having subpar years and it's hard to say Kyrie should be playing more team ball when the team is playing like sh*t. |
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 30, 2018 17:22:32 GMT -5
I always read this thread even though I don't contribute, but I have to say that I've learned a lot while reading and have even started watching the NBA again at times. I quit watching the NBA when Bird and Magic retired and hero ball took over when everyone wanted to be like Michael Jordan. Larry and Magic always made their teammates better and that's what I loved about both of them. Jordan learned that later in his career, but everyone who idolized him didn't notice and instead focused on looking cool while dunking and taking 40 shots a game while everyone else stood around watching them. And those guys are supposed to be anything but the point guard.
The point I'm making is that Irving sounds like a player I'd hate. I don't really have any basis for saying this since I'm not watching much at all, but I find myself agreeing with what umass is saying. Sorry umass. lol
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 30, 2018 18:30:54 GMT -5
Given his scoring woes, couldn't Hayward be your primary distributor. Or more Horford doing so like he did last year? Then SG could be based on what you need most (not that we have a shooter to fill the role, which would be ideal). umass is ignoring that whatever shortcomings Irving has as a playmaker could be mitigated by getting Smart, Hayward and Horford more involved in that role. Their inability to do so consistently thus far is on Brad or on those guys who are all having subpar years and it's hard to say Kyrie should be playing more team ball when the team is playing like sh*t. Yeah I mean, if everyone was playing well and they're barely losing a lot of close games, then I could see it. The Celtics are either getting blown out or blowing away bad teams for the most part. The only exception was the Toronto game so far. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2018 20:22:14 GMT -5
sports.yahoo.com/celtics-search-identity-led-brad-stevens-toughness-decision-142051226.htmlAnother article saying the team playing this way isn't a surprise for an Irving lead team and how its the exact opposite of last years playoff team. How minutes are an issue. How Irving is calling out the young guys to the media for some stupid reason, yet he's the reason why they are playing different. Too much pressure my a##, they thrived in the preasure packed playoffs, it's not the preasure. My god he almost sounds like LeBron, we need more Veterans, 14 to 15 year ones. It's all them, not me. Great leader right there. A good leader chews them out in private and takes responsibility as the leader that he is at least somewhat at fault. LeBron didn't once throw his teammates under the bus last year in the playoffs even after he went off and they lost. It was I need to be better and he was! Our other Vets have all made comments, but aren't pointing the blame at least publicly. Go read the comments, plenty of people see that Irving has some issues, even though he's a great scorer. Given the way Irving is playing we don't have a great fit for SG. As I said before Smart kinda makes the most sense. Yet given his lack of shooting isn't close to perfect. Rozier is likely the best option offensively, he's the best shooter out of the bunch right now. He can create his own shot in a way Brown struggles with and he can run the offense. Yet its the worst fit defensively. Brown might be the best fit defensively, but he's the worst fit offensively of the three. He needs the ball and people to create for him. Like Don said he does let his D and overall play slip if not heavily involved. He was a different player in the 4th quarter of that Knicks game after they kept going to him in the third. Got that big steal that cut it to 3 points late in the game. I'd be highly interested if you keep starting Smart how Brown would play in place of Morris. As the article points out Irving likes leaning on Smart offensively and defensively. I get the offensive part. It's what I've been saying, allows Irving to focus more on just scoring and not worry about the team offense. The role he was great at in Cleveland. Scorer and secondary creator. The fact he finally sees that and seems to be kinda demanding Smart stays in the starting lineup is great news and a good first step. This is the best “blaming of a guy I’ve ever read” “But these disappointing Celtics are flashing one trait we probably should have seen coming from an Irving-led roster — they’ve relied more on glitz than grit, a turnabout nobody foresaw after the undermanned C’s scrapped their way to Game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals last May. This isn’t to say Irving lacks toughness or grit. He played through a broken face and until a nagging knee issue became unbearable last season. His defense this season has been better than advertised, and he’s been as active as any player in the NBA despite being six months removed from season-ending knee surgery. But the game looks like it comes so damn easy to him, and through the first six weeks his teammates have played like the results should, too.”  Translation: My preconceived notions of the guy are that he’s all flash no substance and that’s what the team is playing like yet nothing he’s doing other than making the game look easy shows that’s he’s all glitz so I’m just going to say that’s what the issue is. His teammates have played like the results should be easy so that’s his fault despite him playing his ass off. Let’s ignore them not playing their asses off. 🙄 Sorry I stopped reading the article after that point because it’s really long and I’m going to have trouble taking any of his narratives serious after that sound logic he started out with. We do remember this team was the best record in the East before he got hurt last year right? |
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 30, 2018 20:37:10 GMT -5
Yeah Kyrie is a baller and he's crazy talented. Like crazy "he won an NBA title by hitting a huge 3" talented. The hard part in the NBA is getting guys like that and you don't punt them away because things are not perfect initially. I for one really hope he stays another 5-10 years here.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 1, 2018 5:16:57 GMT -5
Crazy take, the Celtics looked a lot better without Jalen Brown on the floor last night.
Actually not that crazy, because Jalen Brown is bringing down this team with the exception of like 3 games this year. His poor shooting is hard to watch.
The team has been doing better with Smart in the starting lineup because Smart has been a better player than Brown this year. The fact that he can handle the ball is a bonus next to Kyrie, who can play off the ball.
I want the Celtics to trade Brown after the year.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 1, 2018 5:30:40 GMT -5
The Celtics actually looked good with Baynes and Theis playing the Center position too.
If Horford wants to play like a small baller, then put him in the PF position for the rest of the year. Let Baynes and Theis do the dirty work on the boards that Horford is adverse to doing in 50 percent of the games of a season.
No more small lineups. Play to this strength instead.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 1, 2018 9:08:18 GMT -5
The Celtics actually looked good with Baynes and Theis playing the Center position too. If Horford wants to play like a small baller, then put him in the PF position for the rest of the year. Let Baynes and Theis do the dirty work on the boards that Horford is adverse to doing in 50 percent of the games of a season. No more small lineups. Play to this strength instead. I disagree with you about Jaylen, I think if anything the rotations were a bit better last night with fewer wings needing to get minutes. Brown shouldn't be taking minutes from Smart, he should be taking minutes from Morris. I think Danny needs to trade one of these guys away and Morris is the one to go. As it is there is not enough minutes for everyone and it's really hurting some guys. But I do agree very much about Baynes and Theis playing center. Brad needs to let go of his small ball obsession, Horford is not Draymond Green. |
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 1, 2018 11:55:03 GMT -5
I don't care if it was ruled a goaltend....That was an eye opening, jaw dropping, adrenaline pumping swat by Williams. Holy intimidating athleticism Batman!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 1, 2018 12:04:50 GMT -5
Given his scoring woes, couldn't Hayward be your primary distributor. Or more Horford doing so like he did last year? Then SG could be based on what you need most (not that we have a shooter to fill the role, which would be ideal). umass is ignoring that whatever shortcomings Irving has as a playmaker could be mitigated by getting Smart, Hayward and Horford more involved in that role. Their inability to do so consistently thus far is on Brad or on those guys who are all having subpar years and it's hard to say Kyrie should be playing more team ball when the team is playing like sh*t. Really? I've said things like that all season and got nothing is wrong with Irving from RJP, Pedro and you for over a year. That is the first time one of you has said Irving has short comings as a pg and playmaker. Every other time it was I was crazy, Irving is awesome. I was calling for Smart to start before he did. I've said the plan was likely to have Hayward shoulder a large amount of it, yet he's just not the same player right now. The whole point is Irving needed to accept that he couldn't be the #1 scorer and playmaker all in one like LeBron and that just hapened. I only watched the first half but most of the PG duties were on Smart and Rozier. Heck when Irving caught fire hitting that deep three he went back and was demanding the ball and the in bounder still gave it to Smart. Which was good to see. Irving did get it a few times with Rozier playing, yet gave it up to him. After some practice time it sure seems the plan is to make Irving more of a SG and go to the basket more. Heck Rozier that almost never commits TOs, had a couple trying to feed people down low. Tommy yelling at him for turning down an open jumper to drive and take a harder shot. I liked that though. It shows Stevens has drilled into them recently to drive more and take less Jumpers. Overall I really liked what I was seeing. It's what I've wanted them too do for a while now! |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 1, 2018 12:17:29 GMT -5
sports.yahoo.com/celtics-search-identity-led-brad-stevens-toughness-decision-142051226.htmlAnother article saying the team playing this way isn't a surprise for an Irving lead team and how its the exact opposite of last years playoff team. How minutes are an issue. How Irving is calling out the young guys to the media for some stupid reason, yet he's the reason why they are playing different. Too much pressure my a##, they thrived in the preasure packed playoffs, it's not the preasure. My god he almost sounds like LeBron, we need more Veterans, 14 to 15 year ones. It's all them, not me. Great leader right there. A good leader chews them out in private and takes responsibility as the leader that he is at least somewhat at fault. LeBron didn't once throw his teammates under the bus last year in the playoffs even after he went off and they lost. It was I need to be better and he was! Our other Vets have all made comments, but aren't pointing the blame at least publicly. Go read the comments, plenty of people see that Irving has some issues, even though he's a great scorer. Given the way Irving is playing we don't have a great fit for SG. As I said before Smart kinda makes the most sense. Yet given his lack of shooting isn't close to perfect. Rozier is likely the best option offensively, he's the best shooter out of the bunch right now. He can create his own shot in a way Brown struggles with and he can run the offense. Yet its the worst fit defensively. Brown might be the best fit defensively, but he's the worst fit offensively of the three. He needs the ball and people to create for him. Like Don said he does let his D and overall play slip if not heavily involved. He was a different player in the 4th quarter of that Knicks game after they kept going to him in the third. Got that big steal that cut it to 3 points late in the game. I'd be highly interested if you keep starting Smart how Brown would play in place of Morris. As the article points out Irving likes leaning on Smart offensively and defensively. I get the offensive part. It's what I've been saying, allows Irving to focus more on just scoring and not worry about the team offense. The role he was great at in Cleveland. Scorer and secondary creator. The fact he finally sees that and seems to be kinda demanding Smart stays in the starting lineup is great news and a good first step. This is the best “blaming of a guy I’ve ever read” “But these disappointing Celtics are flashing one trait we probably should have seen coming from an Irving-led roster — they’ve relied more on glitz than grit, a turnabout nobody foresaw after the undermanned C’s scrapped their way to Game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals last May. This isn’t to say Irving lacks toughness or grit. He played through a broken face and until a nagging knee issue became unbearable last season. His defense this season has been better than advertised, and he’s been as active as any player in the NBA despite being six months removed from season-ending knee surgery. But the game looks like it comes so damn easy to him, and through the first six weeks his teammates have played like the results should, too.” Translation: My preconceived notions of the guy are that he’s all flash no substance and that’s what the team is playing like yet nothing he’s doing other than making the game look easy shows that’s he’s all glitz so I’m just going to say that’s what the issue is. His teammates have played like the results should be easy so that’s his fault despite him playing his ass off. Let’s ignore them not playing their asses off. 🙄 Sorry I stopped reading the article after that point because it’s really long and I’m going to have trouble taking any of his narratives serious after that sound logic he started out with. We do remember this team was the best record in the East before he got hurt last year right? The Celtics as a group have made Irving a better defender. The way the team plays has rubbed off on him this year. He tries the best he can, which is great. My issues and what that article is basically saying is they need Irving to do that on offense. As in go to the basket, take the harder tougher shots that get you hit, draw fouls and set an example for the team to follow. Sure he can hit all these crazy hard jumpers, yet very few guys can make those tough shots all the time like he does. That rubs off on other guys and creates a jump shooting team. A lot of this kinda seems moot now anyways. They seem to be taking away a good amount of Irvings PG duties and the team seems way mord focused on going to the basket. Heck Irving got 4 FT attempts in 27 minutes which is his best showing in a while. I remember them being in second place when Irving went down and that young team trying to catch Toronto. Almost positive they weren't in first when Irving went down. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 1, 2018 12:25:40 GMT -5
Granted I only watched the first half, but I think we missed Horford. Those guys just went crazy going to the basket. Got a second quarter lead on us. TT had a double double or was very close in the first half. It was the pick and role D that Horford excells at was a big issue.
The second half was different after giving up 52 points in the first, they gave up 43 in the second. So they made changes or the Cavs just started missing shots.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 1, 2018 14:58:58 GMT -5
Really? I've said things like that all season and got nothing is wrong with Irving from RJP, Pedro and you for over a year. That is the first time one of you has said Irving has short comings as a pg and playmaker. Every other time it was I was crazy, Irving is awesome. I was calling for Smart to start before he did. I've said the plan was likely to have Hayward shoulder a large amount of it, yet he's just not the same player right now. The whole point is Irving needed to accept that he couldn't be the #1 scorer and playmaker all in one like LeBron and that just hapened. I only watched the first half but most of the PG duties were on Smart and Rozier. Heck when Irving caught fire hitting that deep three he went back and was demanding the ball and the in bounder still gave it to Smart. Which was good to see. Irving did get it a few times with Rozier playing, yet gave it up to him. After some practice time it sure seems the plan is to make Irving more of a SG and go to the basket more. Heck Rozier that almost never commits TOs, had a couple trying to feed people down low. Tommy yelling at him for turning down an open jumper to drive and take a harder shot. I liked that though. It shows Stevens has drilled into them recently to drive more and take less Jumpers. Overall I really liked what I was seeing. It's what I've wanted them too do for a while now! I don't think anyone claimed Kyrie is John Stockton out there, he's very vanilla as a creator. The problem is you act as if these shortcomings make him a net negative for the team, which it doesn't, or that the team is worse because they're starting Kyrie in place of Rozier, which it isn't. You don't need a single great playmaker when the team has so many dudes that are above average at that on their position, the thing is that they haven't been good thus far. Just as important as Smart starting was Hayward having his best game as a Celtic yet. Kyrie doesn't need to accept that he isn't the singular playmaker on the squad, Brad needs to tell him that. But in order for that to work, the other guys need to play well. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 1, 2018 16:04:18 GMT -5
That's the thing he can be a net negative. Doesn't me he always is, but we have a good amount of evidence that proves just that. It's way more pronounced when he tries to be a LeBron type guy. You know the top scorer and playmaker. He's never been good at that. Just look at the Cavs before LeBron and his time with the Celtics. The Celtics offense improved when he went out for example last year.
I believe he has the ability to become a net positive. You see the ability, its clearly there. Yet for that to happen he has to put the team first and not his numbers. Even if he's on fire the right thing is to keep playing team ball and keep everyone involved. That means he doesn't take over 50% of the shots when games are close. He has to trust his teammates. If they are struggling he needs to help them. Example third quarter of that Knicks game with Brown. You don't just keep playing one on one ball because your teammates missed some shots!
It's funny the most pronounced game of the year when Irving has the ball taken out of his hands and into Smart and Rozier hands. Bam Hayward has his best game, Smart plays well, Rozier plays well, the whole team plays well. Missing two starters. Not sure how that doesn't prove my point. Yet your like well look Hayward played well, yea Irving wasn't dominating the ball as much. The team made a big effort to drive and go inside. They played more team ball. Hayward is the anti Irving in a lot of ways. He's all about team ball, he's not a good fit and loses value if you play like the Rockets. At the same time he doesn't look 100%. I swear I saw him at least once acting like his ankle was hurting him after he drove to the basket.
If it was only as easy as a coach telling a player to change and bam he's all good. Come on, it doesn't work that way. Irving needs to accept that and it seems he's starting too a little bit. At the same time you basically have to teach him how to play a totally different way. That takes crazy time and isn't easy. He has to learn to play Celtics team ball, which is so many ways is the opposite of the way he's played his entire career. It worked with the Cavs because of LeBron, Irving had to give him the ball and allow him to be the man. He was the best player in the league. Yet Irving hated that so much he forced a trade because he wanted to be LeBron. The problem is he just isn't LeBron. In a way he has the ability, there isn't anything he can't do as a PG. He's just has a scorer mentality and plays that way. So yea he has to accept it and want to change. Otherwise it just won't happen. Taking the ball out of his hands will help, but it won't change him. It just reduces him dominating the ball so much. It's something a lot of great scorers struggle with, some figure it out, some don't. The thing that I'm 100% positive of is only Irving came make that happen. He has to want to. The big three talked about that in detail and how it was easier because they were older. Yet it was still crazy hard. They did it to finally win a Championship, something Irving already has, making things even harder.
Paul Pierce has a good podcast on his thoughts about the Celtics offense. One big thing, they need to push the pace.
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 1, 2018 16:14:27 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 1, 2018 20:56:25 GMT -5
These uniforms need to be burned immediately. My wife is so mad about them tho so it’s actually pretty great
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 1, 2018 21:59:23 GMT -5
Stevens might be one of the worst coaches ever at using timeouts.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 1, 2018 22:37:02 GMT -5
Gotta love glow in the dark uniforms. Tibs has them practicing in the dark and they thought why not try them in a game. Maybe the worst looking uniforms ever! They know people have massive 4K LED TVs right?
All joking a side great game By Hayward! Almost had a triple double.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 1, 2018 22:59:40 GMT -5
That's the thing he can be a net negative. Doesn't me he always is, but we have a good amount of evidence that proves just that. It's way more pronounced when he tries to be a LeBron type guy. You know the top scorer and playmaker. He's never been good at that. Just look at the Cavs before LeBron and his time with the Celtics. The Celtics offense improved when he went out for example last year.Did it? I'm too lazy to check the numbers but the Celtics were leading the East with a healthy Irving. But I'll concede that Irving doesn't need to be the primary scorer for this team to be successful. And I think he knows that. It's probably a thing that will come naturally once everyone starts clicking. Anyway, tonight was HUGE, the Wolves have been playing pretty good ball lately. Hayward being Hayward again would be monumental and with no Brown tonight everyone got a lot of minutes. Danny needs to clear a bit of the logjam at the wings, it's clear this team works better with Smart as the 2 guard and that kind of limits up a lot of minutes. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 1, 2018 23:26:59 GMT -5
www.si.com/nba/2018/03/24/kyrie-irving-knee-surgery-recovery-boston-celtics-playoffsIrving last played March 11th, they went 3-2 when this article was written without Irving and were 4.5 games behind Toronto. They weren't in first when he got injured. You can't lose 2 games and drop 4.5 behind. It was one of the story lines when the news came out. They were unlikely to catch Toronto even with Irving and the third place team was a good distance behind. The injury wasn't going to cost us in seeding for the playoffs. Go back and read my past posts. I gave a fairly detailed breakdown of how they increased scoring without Irving. Ok so I did the math Raptors were 49-17 and the Celtics were 46-21 after Irvings last game. We were 3.5 games behind at that point.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 2, 2018 7:17:11 GMT -5
Can we move on from the Kyrie talk? I mean if we want to mention it, fine but let’s refrain from big “statistical” breakdowns and deep dive narratives. If you want to believe this team is better without him go for it. Most, not all people, will disagree and the fact is we will never know. Teams are living breathing things and they are ever evolving. I’m sure if this team goes on a huge run and continues to play like it did last night it will be despite Kyrie not because of him or it will be because he magically became a better player and change his game. Whatever... it’s becoming repetitive; i really don’t even read the posts anymore.
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