SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,008
|
Post by ericmvan on Dec 26, 2018 23:35:21 GMT -5
You guys are unwittingly trying to cajole me into doing a statistical rundown of every Red Sox closer season since the days of Dick Radatz, aren't you?
(Trying to resist: what's the emoji for that?)
Well, at least here's the history of the closer position since 1962. A slash indicates a shared job, while a comma indicates a succession (in '81 Clear shared the job with Burgmeier, then Campbell). An asterisk indicates a guy who had less than half the team saves, but shared the job with various and sundry. Significant temporary injury replacements are in parentheses. Guys who were supposed to close and got hurt almost immediately are omitted.
I think a lot of teams once used a RHR and LHR to share the job, as the Sox did much of the time from 1968 to 1986.
Corrections / additions in bold.
Year Closer 1962 Dick Radatz 1963 Dick Radatz 1964 Dick Radatz 1965 Dick Radatz 1966 Dick Radatz; Don McMahon / John Wyatt 1967 John Wyatt* 1968 Lee Stange / Sparky Lyle 1969 Sparky Lyle / Vicente Romo 1970 Sparky Lyle* 1971 Sparky Lyle / Ken Tatum 1972 Ken Tatum / Bill Lee; Bobby Bolin / Bob Veale 1973 Bob Veale, Bobby Bolin 1974 Diego Segui 1975 Dick Drago, Jim Willoughby, Drago 1976 Jim Willoughby / Tom Murphy 1977 Bill Campbell 1978 Bob Stanley / Dick Drago 1979 Dick Drago / Bill Campbell 1980 Tom Burgmeier / Bob Stanley 1981 Mark Clear / Tom Burgmeier, Bill Campbell 1982 Mark Clear, Bob Stanley 1983 Bob Stanley 1984 Bob Stanley 1985 Bob Stanley, Stanley / Steve Crawford, (Crawford only) 1986 Bob Stanley / Joe Sambito; Calvin Schiraldi 1987 Wes Gardner / Calvin Schiraldi 1988 Lee Smith 1989 Lee Smith 1990 Lee Smith, Jeff Reardon (, Jeff Gray,) Reardon 1991 Jeff Reardon 1992 Jeff Reardon, Greg Harris 1993 Jeff Russell 1994 Jeff Russell, Ken Ryan 1995 Ken Ryan, Stan Belinda, Rick Aguilera 1996 Heathcliff Slocumb 1997 Heathcliff Slocumb, Tom Gordon 1998 Tom Gordon 1999 Tom Gordon (, Tim Wakefield, Derek Lowe) 2000 Derek Lowe 2001 Derek Lowe, Ugueth Urbina 2002 Ugueth Urbina 2003 official committee, Brandon Lyon, Byung-Hyun Kim 2004 Keith Foulke 2005 Keith Foulke (, Curt Schilling, Mike Timlin) 2006 Jonathan Papelbon (, Mike Timlin) 2007 Jonathan Papelbon 2008 Jonathan Papelbon 2009 Jonathan Papelbon 2010 Jonathan Papelbon 2011 Jonathan Papelbon 2012 Alfredo Aceves 2013 Joel Hanrahan, Andrew Bailey, Koji Uehara 2014 Koji Uehara (, Edward Mujica) 2015 Koji Uehara (, Robbie Ross, Jr.) 2016 Craig Kimbrel 2017 Craig Kimbrel 2018 Craig Kimbrel
|
|
gerry
Veteran
Enter your message here...
Posts: 1,768
|
Post by gerry on Dec 27, 2018 3:51:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the list, Eric. It connected some dots for me, as Closers were keepers and helped define eras like Ted, Yaz, Lynn/Rice/Dewey, Remdog and 1967. I was all in for the Sox from the late 40’s through around 1976 when raising kids became all consuming, and the Sox took a back seat, and almost disappeared for me, except for hating the nyfy through the 90’s. As time started becoming my own again around 2000 I began getting all in again, just in time for 2003 and 2004. Awesome. Awesome. And awesome thrice. Then the Theo/Cherington/Dombrowski troika produced the record 3 Division Titles in a row and the clincher WS mini-dynasty. Radatz, Spaceman, Steamer, Papelbon, Koji, Kimbrel. Is Barnes next? I hope so.
|
|
jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 4,111
|
Post by jimoh on Dec 27, 2018 8:02:34 GMT -5
You guys are unwittingly trying to cajole me into doing a statistical rundown of every Red Sox closer season since the days of Dick Radatz, aren't you?
(Trying to resist: what's the emoji for that?)
Well, at least here's the history of the closer position since 1962. A slash indicates a shared job, while a comma indicates a succession (in '81 Clear shared the job with the two lefties in succession). [...] 1981 Mark Clear / Tom Burgmeier, Bill Campbell ] [ Great work Eric and a lot of fun. But is it a typo that makes Bill Campbell one of “the two lefties” in 1981?
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2018 8:09:39 GMT -5
You guys are unwittingly trying to cajole me into doing a statistical rundown of every Red Sox closer season since the days of Dick Radatz, aren't you? (Trying to resist: what's the emoji for that?) Well, at least here's the history of the closer position since 1962. A slash indicates a shared job, while a comma indicates a succession (in '81 Clear shared the job with the two lefties in succession). An asterisk indicates a guy who had less than half the team saves, but shared the job with various and sundry. Significant temporary injury replacements are in parentheses. Guys who were supposed to close and got hurt almost immediately are omitted. I think a lot of teams once used a RHR and LHR to share the job, as the Sox did much of the time from 1968 to 1986.
Year Closer 1962 Dick Radatz 1963 Dick Radatz 1964 Dick Radatz 1965 Dick Radatz 1966 Dick Radatz; Don McMahon / John Wyatt 1967 John Wyatt* 1968 Lee Stange / Sparky Lyle 1969 Sparky Lyle / Vicente Romo 1970 Sparky Lyle* 1971 Sparky Lyle / Ken Tatum 1972 Ken Tatum / Bill Lee; Bobby Bolin / Bob Veale 1973 Bob Veale, Bobby Bolin 1974 Diego Segui 1975 Dick Drago, Jim Willoughby, Drago 1976 Jim Willoughby / Tom Murphy 1977 Bill Campbell 1978 Bob Stanley / Dick Drago 1979 Dick Drago / Bill Campbell 1980 Tom Burgmeier / Bob Stanley 1981 Mark Clear / Tom Burgmeier, Bill Campbell 1982 Mark Clear, Bob Stanley 1983 Bob Stanley 1984 Bob Stanley 1985 Bob Stanley, Steve Crawford 1986 Bob Stanley / Joe Sambito; Calvin Schiraldi 1987 Wes Gardner / Calvin Schiraldi 1988 Lee Smith 1989 Lee Smith 1990 Lee Smith, Jeff Reardon (, Jeff Gray,) Reardon 1991 Jeff Reardon 1992 Jeff Reardon 1993 Jeff Russell 1994 Jeff Russell, Ken Ryan 1995 Ken Ryan, Stan Belinda, Rick Aguilera 1996 Heathcliff Slocumb 1997 Heathcliff Slocumb, Tom Gordon 1998 Tom Gordon 1999 Tom Gordon, Tim Wakefield, Derek Lowe 2000 Derek Lowe 2001 unofficial committee, Derek Lowe, Ugueth Urbina 2002 Ugueth Urbina 2003 official committee, Brandon Lyon, Byung-Hyun Kim 2004 Keith Foulke 2005 Keith Foulke (, Curt Schilling, Mike Timlin) 2006 Jonathan Papelbon (, Mike Timlin) 2007 Jonathan Papelbon 2008 Jonathan Papelbon 2009 Jonathan Papelbon 2010 Jonathan Papelbon 2011 Jonathan Papelbon 2012 Alfredo Alceves 2013 Joel Hanrahan, Andrew Bailey, Koji Uehara 2014 Koji Uehara (, Edward Mujica) 2015 Koji Uehara (, Robbie Ross, Jr.) 2016 Craig Kimbrel 2017 Craig Kimbrel 2018 Craig Kimbrel
Eric, for 1976 you forgot to include Rollie Fingers. I'm sure he would have been the closer if the Red Sox had a manager smart enough to use him.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Dec 27, 2018 9:53:29 GMT -5
Looks right to me. Reardon was traded in August of 1992, and I think Greg Harris was nominally the closer for the last six weeks or so. Not that he got many chances. I'd forgotten that team was 42-43 at the break and just kind of hanging out in the middle of the division. In my memory that team was so awful, but the pitching staff was actually really solid.
It's amazing how overlooked Bobby Valentine's insanely bad usage of Alfredo Aceves was until you remember that wasn't even one of the 25 worst things about Bobby Valentine. Aceves was useful as a guy who was a rubber-armed swingman who could go multiple innings /slash/ popular crazy person. He was dynamite in the role Johsnon and Velazquez were in this year, and his usage in 2011 was one of Francona's best works as a strategist. So what does Valentine do? Sticks him in a role that neglects his ability to go multiple innings, and maximizes the risk inherent in using an actual crazy person in such a focused, high-leverage role.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,008
|
Post by ericmvan on Dec 27, 2018 11:14:58 GMT -5
Looks right to me. Reardon was traded in August of 1992, and I think Greg Harris was nominally the closer for the last six weeks or so. Not that he got many chances. I'd forgotten that team was 42-43 at the break and just kind of hanging out in the middle of the division. In my memory that team was so awful, but the pitching staff was actually really solid. It's amazing how overlooked Bobby Valentine's insanely bad usage of Alfredo Aceves was until you remember that wasn't even one of the 25 worst things about Bobby Valentine. Aceves was useful as a guy who was a rubber-armed swingman who could go multiple innings /slash/ popular crazy person. He was dynamite in the role Johsnon and Velazquez were in this year, and his usage in 2011 was one of Francona's best works as a strategist. So what does Valentine do? Sticks him in a role that neglects his ability to go multiple innings, and maximizes the risk inherent in using an actual crazy person in such a focused, high-leverage role. I saw that Greg Harris saved a few game and almost put him in. I forgot that Reardon was traded and figured he was just hurt a little. I will add him!
I could do more work with injuries. In '85 for instance, Stanley and Crawford shared the job in July and August and then Stanley missed September. I clarified that.
As far as Bill Campbell being a lefty -- that's how I remember him! Obviously I'm confusing him with someone, but who?
Edit: Added that Tom Gordon got hurt in 1999. I knew that, I just forgot that I did!
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,008
|
Post by ericmvan on Dec 27, 2018 11:55:17 GMT -5
Looks right to me. Reardon was traded in August of 1992, and I think Greg Harris was nominally the closer for the last six weeks or so. Not that he got many chances. I'd forgotten that team was 42-43 at the break and just kind of hanging out in the middle of the division. In my memory that team was so awful, but the pitching staff was actually really solid. It's amazing how overlooked Bobby Valentine's insanely bad usage of Alfredo Aceves was until you remember that wasn't even one of the 25 worst things about Bobby Valentine. Aceves was useful as a guy who was a rubber-armed swingman who could go multiple innings /slash/ popular crazy person. He was dynamite in the role Johsnon and Velazquez were in this year, and his usage in 2011 was one of Francona's best works as a strategist. So what does Valentine do? Sticks him in a role that neglects his ability to go multiple innings, and maximizes the risk inherent in using an actual crazy person in such a focused, high-leverage role. Another correction -- Derek Lowe started 2001 as the closer. He had almost no traditional opportunities and they handed out a bunch of 3-inning saves in blowouts, making it look like there was a virtual committee, and he blew his second opportunity and they used Rod Beck the next day.
I completely forgot about 3-inning "saves" when I looked at game logs. They used to be much more common, I think.
|
|
|
Post by vermontsox1 on Dec 27, 2018 13:07:01 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2018 14:36:23 GMT -5
Looks right to me. Reardon was traded in August of 1992, and I think Greg Harris was nominally the closer for the last six weeks or so. Not that he got many chances. I'd forgotten that team was 42-43 at the break and just kind of hanging out in the middle of the division. In my memory that team was so awful, but the pitching staff was actually really solid. It's amazing how overlooked Bobby Valentine's insanely bad usage of Alfredo Aceves was until you remember that wasn't even one of the 25 worst things about Bobby Valentine. Aceves was useful as a guy who was a rubber-armed swingman who could go multiple innings /slash/ popular crazy person. He was dynamite in the role Johsnon and Velazquez were in this year, and his usage in 2011 was one of Francona's best works as a strategist. So what does Valentine do? Sticks him in a role that neglects his ability to go multiple innings, and maximizes the risk inherent in using an actual crazy person in such a focused, high-leverage role. I saw that Greg Harris saved a few game and almost put him in. I forgot that Reardon was traded and figured he was just hurt a little. I will add him! I could do more work with injuries. In '85 for instance, Stanley and Crawford shared the job in July and August and then Stanley missed September. I clarified that.
As far as Bill Campbell being a lefty -- that's how I remember him! Obviously I'm confusing him with someone, but who?
Edit: Added that Tom Gordon got hurt in 1999. I knew that, I just forgot that I did!
Andy Hassler?
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,008
|
Post by ericmvan on Dec 27, 2018 16:02:18 GMT -5
I saw that Greg Harris saved a few game and almost put him in. I forgot that Reardon was traded and figured he was just hurt a little. I will add him! I could do more work with injuries. In '85 for instance, Stanley and Crawford shared the job in July and August and then Stanley missed September. I clarified that.
As far as Bill Campbell being a lefty -- that's how I remember him! Obviously I'm confusing him with someone, but who?
Edit: Added that Tom Gordon got hurt in 1999. I knew that, I just forgot that I did!
Andy Hassler? Rob Murphy.
A decade later. Why did I have them combined in my mind? I equated them at the time.
Murphy pitched in 237 games in 1987-9 (last 2 years with the Reds, first with the Sox), throwing 290 innings! With a 136 ERA+ and 5.3 bWAR. The Reds in 1988 had a surplus of LHR (John Franco and Norm Charlton being the others) and I remember hoping we could get him and being really glad that we did (with Nick Esasky for Todd Benzinger, Jeff Sellers, and Luis Vazquez).
After we burnt him out in '89 with a career-high 105 IP he pitched six more years: 324 G, 270 IP, 81 ERA+, -2.2 bWAR.
On August 11th of his debut year with us he had a 2.13 ERA and 653 OPS allowed. The rest of the way he was 4.34, 768. He had a 3.86, 759 the next April and 7.30, 1037 the rest of the way, in 57 G and 41 IP.
I remember thinking they'd learned nothing from running Campbell into the ground ten years earlier.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2018 19:15:39 GMT -5
Rob Murphy.
A decade later. Why did I have them combined in my mind? I equated them at the time. Murphy pitched in 237 games in 1987-9 (last 2 years with the Reds, first with the Sox), throwing 290 innings! With a 136 ERA+ and 5.3 bWAR. The Reds in 1988 had a surplus of LHR (John Franco and Norm Charlton being the others) and I remember hoping we could get him and being really glad that we did (with Nick Esasky for Todd Benzinger, Jeff Sellers, and Luis Vazquez). After we burnt him out in '89 with a career-high 105 IP he pitched six more years: 324 G, 270 IP, 81 ERA+, -2.2 bWAR.
On August 11th of his debut year with us he had a 2.13 ERA and 653 OPS allowed. The rest of the way he was 4.34, 768. He had a 3.86, 759 the next April and 7.30, 1037 the rest of the way, in 57 G and 41 IP. I remember thinking they'd learned nothing from running Campbell into the ground ten years earlier.
Would never have guessed you confused Rob Murphy with Bill Campbell. That Murphy & Esasky deal for Benzinger & Sellers was one of Lou Gorman's best deals. He made another good deal that season trading Spike Owen for John Dopson. Too bad they lost Bruce Hurst to free agency or maybe the Red Sox could have won the 1989 division title. At least it would have been a lot closer. I remember Murphy being toast by 1990. Maybe if he hadn't been he could have been an effective option for closer and perhaps they might not have felt the need to trade Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen. Dennis Lamp also had a down year in 1990 after having a nice 1989 season. Only unknown Jeff Gray stepped up that season in the pen and he really looked like he'd have a nice career as he was pitching well in 1991 but then he had a stroke and he never came back.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Dec 27, 2018 21:20:15 GMT -5
Is this still the 2019 bullpen thread?
|
|
jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 4,111
|
Post by jimoh on Dec 27, 2018 21:21:41 GMT -5
Bill Campbell is vividly etched in my mind. He was one of our first big free-agent signings. Then he started 1977 by pitching in each of the first three games and giving up ten runs. One of the papers even used the headline "What Til Next Year" after the third game. Of course he pitched very well after that until as you say Zimmer used him too much and he like everyone wilted in late 77.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2018 21:45:30 GMT -5
Is this still the 2019 bullpen thread? Maybe when something actually happens?
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 28, 2018 21:19:43 GMT -5
Jon Heyman Verified account @jonheyman
Yankees are focusing on pen while they wait on Machado market to play out. Ottavino, Britton and Robertson all in play. Still possible they could sign more than 1, depending on price. Remember, like Red Sox they are currently down two, as both Britton and Robertson were theirs. . . . . It wouldn't surprise me to see the Yankees have to outbid the Sox for arms then have the Sox use the trade route to pick up relievers. For example, a catcher, Nunez + money if Pedroia is healthy, Workman & Hembree could be traded for upgrades to Hembree and Workman.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Dec 29, 2018 10:22:34 GMT -5
Jon Heyman Verified account @jonheyman Yankees are focusing on pen while they wait on Machado market to play out. Ottavino, Britton and Robertson all in play. Still possible they could sign more than 1, depending on price. Remember, like Red Sox they are currently down two, as both Britton and Robertson were theirs. . . . . It wouldn't surprise me to see the Yankees have to outbid the Sox for arms then have the Sox use the trade route to pick up relievers. For example, a catcher, Nunez + money if Pedroia is healthy, Workman & Hembree could be traded for upgrades to Hembree and Workman. The Pedroia health situation will never be known until it happens. Even if he’s feeling good they won’t know if he can last past a certain point until he does. It’s precarious situation that has an element of optimism to it but will always be wrapped in an unknown.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 29, 2018 12:21:40 GMT -5
Jon Heyman Verified account @jonheyman Yankees are focusing on pen while they wait on Machado market to play out. Ottavino, Britton and Robertson all in play. Still possible they could sign more than 1, depending on price. Remember, like Red Sox they are currently down two, as both Britton and Robertson were theirs. . . . . It wouldn't surprise me to see the Yankees have to outbid the Sox for arms then have the Sox use the trade route to pick up relievers. For example, a catcher, Nunez + money if Pedroia is healthy, Workman & Hembree could be traded for upgrades to Hembree and Workman. The Pedroia health situation will never be known until it happens. Even if he’s feeling good they won’t know if he can last past a certain point until he does. It’s precarious situation that has an element of optimism to it but will always be wrapped in an unknown. True but the question is the 25th roster spot. There isn't room for Pedroia, Nunez and Lin. Lin is the only reasonable shortstop after Xander.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 29, 2018 13:07:43 GMT -5
The Pedroia health situation will never be known until it happens. Even if he’s feeling good they won’t know if he can last past a certain point until he does. It’s precarious situation that has an element of optimism to it but will always be wrapped in an unknown. True but the question is the 25th roster spot. There isn't room for Pedroia, Nunez and Lin. Lin is the only reasonable shortstop after Xander. Holt is fine for a game or two. If Xander goes on the DL, then Lin comes up. Lin won't be on the 25 man without injuries IMO.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Dec 29, 2018 13:53:44 GMT -5
True but the question is the 25th roster spot. There isn't room for Pedroia, Nunez and Lin. Lin is the only reasonable shortstop after Xander. Holt is fine for a game or two. If Xander goes on the DL, then Lin comes up. Lin won't be on the 25 man without injuries IMO. Exactly. Just won a WS without Lin. Pedey would replace the 3rd catcher from past season I could probably get behind 3 catchers but they very rarely took advantage of having 3 strategically.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Dec 29, 2018 14:33:42 GMT -5
[/quote]The Pedroia health situation will never be known until it happens. Even if he’s feeling good they won’t know if he can last past a certain point until he does. It’s precarious situation that has an element of optimism to it but will always be wrapped in an unknown.[/quote]
My fear is that Pedroia plays the game 100% full throttle, especially on defense that injury is a greater risk.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,008
|
Post by ericmvan on Dec 30, 2018 12:58:06 GMT -5
Nick Cafardo reports that the Sox are looking to sign a veteran reliever to a 1-year deal. Which fits in exactly with what I've thought they would do: 1) Sign Ottavino or Robertson to be the closer. 2) Sign the best upside, re-establish value veteran to a 1-year deal. Look at the relievers who were consensus Top 50 FA: Rnk PLAYER Yr AAV 12 Craig Kimbrel 18 David Robertson 20 Adam Ottavino 22 Jeurys Familia 3 $10.00 24 Andrew Miller 2 $12.50 26 Zach Britton 29 Joe Kelly 3 $8.33 34 Joakim Soria 2 $7.50 37 Kelvin Herrera 43 Jesse Chavez 2 $4.00 44 Cody Allen After the big three, 5 of the other 7 have signed, including 4 of the next 5. Herrera has his injury-driven terrible second half hanging over him, while Allen went from a 1.8 average bWAR to 0.0. Chavez was the opposite, coming off a crazy career year at age 34. Herrera and Allen are probably the leading candidates for a 1-year deal.
Britton may actually be the 4th most sought-after guy, in which case we have a market where teams needing a new closer and the agents for the closer candidates are all waiting for Kimbrel, but all the best set-up guys have signed already.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 30, 2018 13:03:52 GMT -5
Ottavino is so up and down it's a bit scary to give him more than 1 season anyway. I agree with the Cody Allen suggestion and was thinking about him a few weeks ago, although Tito may have Tazawa'd him with overuse.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 30, 2018 18:49:06 GMT -5
I still think it's a better idea to trade a catcher and a reliever (Hembree or Workman) for a better cost controlled reliever and a prospect. One bird with two scones and solves a lot of issues.
|
|
|
Post by vermontsox1 on Dec 30, 2018 19:48:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Smittyw on Dec 30, 2018 19:51:10 GMT -5
I still think it's a better idea to trade a catcher and a reliever (Hembree or Workman) for a better cost controlled reliever and a prospect. One bird with two scones and solves a lot of issues. Now that would be grabbing the flower by the thorns.
|
|
|