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2019-20 Boston Celtics Season
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 17, 2019 17:55:00 GMT -5
That loss is on Smart.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2019 7:22:46 GMT -5
That loss is on Buddy Hield and Bogdonovic but mostly Hield. Guy was unconscious.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 18, 2019 11:43:16 GMT -5
I thought we are talking about right now, we don't have Hayward right now. Isn't that part of the reason Smart is playing bigger guys because we don't have Hayward? He took his spot. I really don't want to say anything negative given he's playing great right now. Yet you seem to be going to the extremes saying he can guard four positions. He can do that in small samples during certain lineups, yet Smart can't guard your standard PFs, heck he struggles with elite SFs that have good size. Like he can guard LeBron at times, it gives LeBron a different type of defender to worry about, but Smart isn't elite a guarding a guy like that, he has too much size and is stronger. As far as leadership couldn't he still provide that from the bench like Irving in 2017? No I’m talking about for the season. Leadership - sure some but a lot of what he provides is leadership by example by how he plays and brings it every single night. Guarding 4 positions... no one can guard LeBron for more than spurts. And doing it in spurts is super valuable. Gives the team a lot of options. Sure there is some value to that, but Steven's teams play hard all the time. Overall it's a young hungry team, not an older team filled with Veteran's. You have Walker and Hayward for leadership both having been the number one option and stars on their former teams. Frankly the comments that started this show Walkers leadership he's building up his teammates, not tearing them down. Article a few weeks ago how Walker tells his teammates to keep shooting and don't worry about it when they go cold. Compared to Irving yelling at them and asking what are you doing? I just don't see the team falling a part without Smart. Sure they will lose something he's a good player. The great thing about team play is that when the whole team buys in, you can plug other players in and the wheels don't fall off. A perfect example was 2017 when both Irving and Smart went down, Rozier and Larkin stepped up. It's not just LeBron but all elite SFs, Durant, Leonard, Paul George, etc. We haven't even mentioned the ton of PFs he stands no chance against. A guy like Semi could do about as good of a job on LeBron as anyone, with his strength, speed and athleticism if the Refs would allow him to. He doesn't get many minutes because his offense is horrible, but he's a very good defender. He's a guy that can guard three positions, just like Smart can. We are getting a little crazy saying he can guard four positions.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 18, 2019 11:52:59 GMT -5
That loss is on Buddy Hield and Bogdonovic but mostly Hield. Guy was unconscious. I didn't watch the game, heck didn't even know it was on, thought they'd have an extra day off after 3 games in five days. Smart was 2-16, the 16 shots were tied tops on the team. We lost by one point, kinda seems it's on Smart. It happens no big deal, but if he makes one more shot we win or passes and another guy makes a shot. Everyone else had a good shooting night. I'd say the same thing if it was Tatum, Brown or Walker.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2019 12:31:20 GMT -5
That loss is on Buddy Hield and Bogdonovic but mostly Hield. Guy was unconscious. I didn't watch the game, heck didn't even know it was on, thought they'd have an extra day off after 3 games in five days. Smart was 2-16, the 16 shots were tied tops on the team. We lost by one point, kinda seems it's on Smart. It happens no big deal, but if he makes one more shot we win or passes and another guy makes a shot. Everyone else had a good shooting night. I'd say the same thing if it was Tatum, Brown or Walker. Yea... watch the game Heild was unconscious and looking at a box score is a silly way to draw a conclusion and place blame on a game you didn’t watch.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 18, 2019 14:02:50 GMT -5
I didn't watch the game, heck didn't even know it was on, thought they'd have an extra day off after 3 games in five days. Smart was 2-16, the 16 shots were tied tops on the team. We lost by one point, kinda seems it's on Smart. It happens no big deal, but if he makes one more shot we win or passes and another guy makes a shot. Everyone else had a good shooting night. I'd say the same thing if it was Tatum, Brown or Walker. Yea... watch the game Heild was unconscious and looking at a box score is a silly way to draw a conclusion and place blame on a game you didn’t watch. The box score does a very good job of showing Heild had a huge game, how does that negate Smarts 2-16? If they won by 20 or something like that you might have a point. Even if Heild was awesome guarding Smart he shouldn't have taken 16 shots when he was having a horrible shooting night or Heild was playing great D. What am I missing? I don't even have a huge issue with the last shot, not really who you want taking it, but it wasn't a horrible attempt. The box score shows Theis had 14 points on 6 attempts, Tatum 14 points on 13 attempts, Walker 15 points on 12 attempts, Brown 18 points on 16 attempts and Smart with 5 points on 16 attempts. We lost by one point and were held below 100 for only the second time this year. The first time we got out rebounded by 20 and a bunch of guys had off nights. Again not a big deal, it happens. It just seems crystal clear what happened. Heck if Smart is the big leader you think, he's going to say my bad I have to play better.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 18, 2019 14:33:03 GMT -5
Smart was fouled on that last shot though.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Nov 18, 2019 14:37:07 GMT -5
Yea... watch the game Heild was unconscious and looking at a box score is a silly way to draw a conclusion and place blame on a game you didn’t watch. The box score does a very good job of showing Heild had a huge game, how does that negate Smarts 2-16? If they won by 20 or something like that you might have a point. Even if Heild was awesome guarding Smart he shouldn't have taken 16 shots when he was having a horrible shooting night or Heild was playing great D. What am I missing? I don't even have a huge issue with the last shot, not really who you want taking it, but it wasn't a horrible attempt. The box score shows Theis had 14 points on 6 attempts, Tatum 14 points on 13 attempts, Walker 15 points on 12 attempts, Brown 18 points on 16 attempts and Smart with 5 points on 16 attempts. We lost by one point and were held below 100 for only the second time this year. The first time we got out rebounded by 20 and a bunch of guys had off nights. Again not a big deal, it happens. It just seems crystal clear what happened. Heck if Smart is the big leader you think, he's going to say my bad I have to play better. 1) Marcus Smart is always accountable. He probably said something to that affect in the post game. 2) Just seems to me that you're always quick to blame Smart when he goes 2-16 from the field, yet when Tatum (or anyone else) goes 1-18 (like he did a week ago), there's always a excuse or reason behind it. Smart has been your punching bag for years now.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2019 15:59:41 GMT -5
Yea... watch the game Heild was unconscious and looking at a box score is a silly way to draw a conclusion and place blame on a game you didn’t watch. The box score does a very good job of showing Heild had a huge game, how does that negate Smarts 2-16? If they won by 20 or something like that you might have a point. Even if Heild was awesome guarding Smart he shouldn't have taken 16 shots when he was having a horrible shooting night or Heild was playing great D. What am I missing? I don't even have a huge issue with the last shot, not really who you want taking it, but it wasn't a horrible attempt. The box score shows Theis had 14 points on 6 attempts, Tatum 14 points on 13 attempts, Walker 15 points on 12 attempts, Brown 18 points on 16 attempts and Smart with 5 points on 16 attempts. We lost by one point and were held below 100 for only the second time this year. The first time we got out rebounded by 20 and a bunch of guys had off nights. Again not a big deal, it happens. It just seems crystal clear what happened. Heck if Smart is the big leader you think, he's going to say my bad I have to play better. What’s clear is you didn’t watch the game so there’s no reason to discuss it with you. My bad for responding in the first place.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 18, 2019 17:15:10 GMT -5
Smart was fouled on that last shot though. There was zero reason for him not to pull the ball out after he came up with the offensive rebound. That’s the type of mistake you expect a freshman in college to make.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2019 17:26:36 GMT -5
Smart was fouled on that last shot though. There was zero reason for him not to pull the ball out after he came up with the offensive rebound. That’s the type of mistake you expect a freshman in college to make. That wasn’t the last play though but now your comment makes sense to me. Yes, he should have pulled that out or called timeout. However, no one else even comes up with that rebound.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 19, 2019 7:16:07 GMT -5
Good win last night. Been recording the games then watching. Sloppy game at times but they’ve gotta be exhausted. If they win 1 of the next 2 that’d be good but won’t be easy.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 19, 2019 11:46:14 GMT -5
Yeah, great stuff last night. I watched the first half and then checked out for the rest of it and I'm glad we won. Not really a pretty game, but when you consider that the Celtics lost a game they should have won and immediately won a game they should have lost then all is good. Great defensive performance, if they can keep up the offensive movement AND crank up the defense they're legit title contenders.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 19, 2019 12:40:23 GMT -5
Saw a tweet today and an article the other day about trading the Memphis pick for a big. I feel like everyone forgets this team is hard capped because of the sign and trade in the offseason. It’s going to very hard for them to make a big deal that would have them use that pick.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 19, 2019 13:27:33 GMT -5
I think they are a good 19M away from the hardcap though. The larger issues are:
1. Only Atlanta has Cap Space to help facilitate an "uneven" deal. 2. There really isn't anyone likely available that would be an upgrade to what they have and/or worth legitimate assets. 3. How good is that pick really going to be? Teams will likely pause on it's worth (especially while it's still protected).
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 19, 2019 13:56:30 GMT -5
I think they are a good 19M away from the hardcap though. The larger issues are: 1. Only Atlanta has Cap Space to help facilitate an "uneven" deal. 2. There really isn't anyone likely available that would be an upgrade to what they have and/or worth legitimate assets. 3. How good is that pick really going to be? Teams will likely pause on it's worth (especially while it's still protected). I thought hard capped teams had to match salary on a trade but I was wrong on that. Regarding number 3... you never know how good a pick will be, but chances are very high it’s a lottery pick so it’s got a lot of value. Contending teams don’t have lottery picks to trade. Your number 2 answers why the pick isn’t worth trading. Plus, the Celtics can’t really afford to trade it... they need a good young player on a cheap contract especially after they extend Tatum and if they plan to keep Hayward.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 19, 2019 14:08:22 GMT -5
Actually, you may have caught ME on that one. I'll have to look.
Really 2 and 3 are combined. I don't mean to suggest it doesn't have value, it's just more room for disagreement on it's value between C's and another team. Combine that with a lack of sure options and . . .
Actually, you're addition should probably go at/near the top of the list. Some cheap talent will be critical to sustainability for this group. Good call.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 19, 2019 19:43:37 GMT -5
The Celtics also have their pick and the Bucks pick. So they have options that don't include the Grizz pick.
I completely agree you want some cheap talent, but do we really want 6-8 rookies added in two years? Even if you don't include Waters and next year's second round pick that's a lot of young guys on a team that seems ready to compete for a Championship.
The hardest part is we don't have many salaries to trade
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Post by beantown on Nov 20, 2019 3:18:08 GMT -5
Ainge should and will hold on to the pick, which could easily end up being in the 5-10 range or better if it kicks to next year. No available bigs with salary matching out there to match that value right now
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 20, 2019 9:32:22 GMT -5
The Celtics also have their pick and the Bucks pick. So they have options that don't include the Grizz pick. I completely agree you want some cheap talent, but do we really want 6-8 rookies added in two years? Even if you don't include Waters and next year's second round pick that's a lot of young guys on a team that seems ready to compete for a Championship. The hardest part is we don't have many salaries to trade I don’t think anyone would object to trading one of the other first round picks for the right player. Oddly enough, maybe Baynes would fit that bill... keeps improving his outside shot and the salary is easy to match... is he an upgrade though on our 3 man rotation right now? Our 3 guys are good enough that it will take a really good player to be an upgrade and those guys are either expensive or not available. They won’t be able to keep the 5 rookies from this year plus 3 new rookies, I don’t think... Waters and Taco are still long shots to be on the team next year.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 20, 2019 11:45:01 GMT -5
Watching that Suns game I thought man it would be nice to have Baynes. He would add a toughness we don't have. I'm not sure the Suns trade him, they want to win or at minimum take a big step forward. Also is he worth a first round pick? He's still a matchup big, like he'd be huge against the Sixers with their size, but he won't be able to play big minutes against every team. He also doesn't add scoring to our bench.
It's too bad Favors makes so much, he'd be perfect. He can score in the post, rebound and play great D. He can also guard centers and PFs. You could play him with Kanter if you wanted to go really big. I love Baynes, but I really want a guy with a little more versatility, espically if we are trading a first for him.
The new lotto rules kinda change everything, heck we were one ball away from getting the #3 pick from the Kings. The Grizz look good at 5-9, much more talent than your average rebuilding team in year one. I'm torn on getting that pick in the 7-10 range this year or hoping next year you can get higher.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 20, 2019 11:54:25 GMT -5
Watching that Suns game I thought man it would be nice to have Baynes. He would add a toughness we don't have. I'm not sure the Suns trade him, they want to win or at minimum take a big step forward. Also is he worth a first round pick? He's still a matchup big, like he'd be huge against the Sixers with their size, but he won't be able to play big minutes against every team. He also doesn't add scoring to our bench. It's too bad Favors makes so much, he'd be perfect. He can score in the post, rebound and play great D. He can also guard centers and PFs. You could play him with Kanter if you wanted to go really big. I love Baynes, but I really want a guy with a little more versatility, espically if we are trading a first for him. The new lotto rules kinda change everything, heck we were one ball away from getting the #3 pick from the Kings. The Grizz look good at 5-9, much more talent than your average rebuilding team in year one. I'm torn on getting that pick in the 7-10 range this year or hoping next year you can get higher. I don’t know he’s worth a first but that’s kind of the point. It’s a weird spot to be in. The Grizz really don’t look good. They’ve just won 4 games by a total of 8 points. Their net rating is second worst in the NBA and there is a large gap between them and the 6th worst. Their record is a small sample size anomaly based on the numbers. Now it’s bad news they’ve won a few extra games while being terrible as it’s a missed opportunity (from a Celtics perspective) because if they improve then they’ll win more games than we want. However, if they keep the same numbers as they have now they’ll be a bottom 5 team. But that doesn’t guarantee a top 6 pick. I’m guessing they’ll trade a few vets like Crowder but that may be wishful thinking as they didn’t trade a guy like Evans when it was obvious they should.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 20, 2019 11:54:36 GMT -5
I guess I'm not that worried about adding 2-3 rookies next year but that probably speaks to my confidence in the maturation of GWill, Edwards and RWill (especially in the roles they are likely to be assigned next year) by the time the deadline rolls around. IF we're talking spots 10-15 on the team I'm okay having them filled by Langford, some rookie deals and a minimum contract or 2.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 20, 2019 13:18:14 GMT -5
I guess I'm not that worried about adding 2-3 rookies next year but that probably speaks to my confidence in the maturation of GWill, Edwards and RWill (especially in the roles they are likely to be assigned next year) by the time the deadline rolls around. IF we're talking spots 10-15 on the team I'm okay having them filled by Langford, some rookie deals and a minimum contract or 2. Assuming Hayward stays... who are you replacing off the 15 man roster to keep 3 rookies? Keep in mind Taco and Waters aren’t on the 15 man roster... so are you assuming they are gone? You have to subtract 3 guys from the current 15 to add 3 firsts and you need to subtract another for each of Taco and Waters... I like Waters game but can you really roll with him Kemba and Edwards on the same team?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 20, 2019 13:23:43 GMT -5
Watching that Suns game I thought man it would be nice to have Baynes. He would add a toughness we don't have. I'm not sure the Suns trade him, they want to win or at minimum take a big step forward. Also is he worth a first round pick? He's still a matchup big, like he'd be huge against the Sixers with their size, but he won't be able to play big minutes against every team. He also doesn't add scoring to our bench. It's too bad Favors makes so much, he'd be perfect. He can score in the post, rebound and play great D. He can also guard centers and PFs. You could play him with Kanter if you wanted to go really big. I love Baynes, but I really want a guy with a little more versatility, espically if we are trading a first for him. The new lotto rules kinda change everything, heck we were one ball away from getting the #3 pick from the Kings. The Grizz look good at 5-9, much more talent than your average rebuilding team in year one. I'm torn on getting that pick in the 7-10 range this year or hoping next year you can get higher. I don’t know he’s worth a first but that’s kind of the point. It’s a weird spot to be in. The Grizz really don’t look good. They’ve just won 4 games by a total of 8 points. Their net rating is second worst in the NBA and there is a large gap between them and the 6th worst. Their record is a small sample size anomaly based on the numbers. Now it’s bad news they’ve won a few extra games while being terrible as it’s a missed opportunity (from a Celtics perspective) because if they improve then they’ll win more games than we want. However, if they keep the same numbers as they have now they’ll be a bottom 5 team. But that doesn’t guarantee a top 6 pick. I’m guessing they’ll trade a few vets like Crowder but that may be wishful thinking as they didn’t trade a guy like Evans when it was obvious they should. We'll see it's just way to early to even know what teams to look at or frankly what our biggest need even is. Will the young guys improve? Overall I agree it won't be the easiest thing to do given we don't have many salaries to trade and finding a player worth a first. I look at it differently, like Morant is legit. He's already capable of leading them to wins. Jackson could be a KG lite type player. Brooks is a young 3 and D guy. Clarke looks like the beast I thought he was in the draft team leading PER and box score numbers coming off the bench and then the veteran JV giving them 12 and 9 in 23 minutes signed long-term. They have legit NBA depth with Crowder, Anderson and Jones. It's a very good thing Iggy is sitting out waiting for a trade. I just love the young combo of Morant, Jackson and Clarke. They should only get better as this season goes along and who knows about next year if they add another really good young player. Then Morant and Jackson who are both 20 take a step forward. They add some free agents. It really though all comes down to Morant who is already averaging 18.5 and 6 Assists per game while shooting 46% and 41.4% from deep.
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