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2019-20 Boston Celtics Season
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 9, 2020 16:02:42 GMT -5
Now I haven't seen much of Thomas playing this year, but the numbers show he's not close to what he once was. He isn't the guy that can carry an offense anymore. He's not close to the elite guy at getting to the rim. He's much more of just a shooter. He plays on a crappy team, so it's not like he doesn't get his chances either. If the guy was even close to the player we remember the Clippers aren't buying him out and he'd be the top target for every contender.
He's not replacing Wannamaker. He runs our offense well, plays hard, is good defensively and has shot the ball well. He's out third PG anyways. A guy that likely doesn't play much in the playoffs.
You have Langford finally making an impact, you don't want to give his minutes to Thomas. I'd rather cut Green and make Waters a full-time player if you wanted another PG. Thomas is so bad defensively, that the bar for him offensively to make a net impact is very high. I just don't see Danny adding that burden to Stevens unless we have any injury.
Still think a guy like Bismack Biyombo makes sense, but that could also be unlikely and teams like Houston would likely go after him hard. They could also give him a bigger role.
At the same time things don't look that bad as Langford and Williams are starting to play better. Yet that makes Green basically worthless. Still wouldn't mind cutting Green to add Bender with a team option for next year. He likely doesn't help this year, but is finally showing signs of being a good shooter. He's the type of guy I'd love to see Stevens work his magic on. The perfect type of guy to be the 15th guy on the bench, but heck he's likely better than Poirier is.
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,046
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Post by mobaz on Feb 10, 2020 8:50:30 GMT -5
Looking forward to next season, is Marcus Smart becoming expendable if Hayward stays? Smart is overqualified as a 6th/7th man and the Hayward/Tatum/JB combo has been providing great ball movement and D. His salary is movable, and getting either a microwave scorer or a big man upgrade is the only clear way for the team to get better beyond internal growth of the Jays. You'd lose the toughness and depth and crazy defensive flexibility. I don't think I'd do it, but I also don't know how this team gets from Top 3 East Hopeful to true title contender. Maybe waiting out the Jays ceiling is it.
I'm also really interested to see how Romeo ends up. He could end up on the Rozier path where his growth is stunted by the strong depth ahead of him.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 10, 2020 8:55:10 GMT -5
IMO there is no big man upgrade that is likely available that would warrant trading Marcus Smart.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 10, 2020 9:29:09 GMT -5
I get wanting a big man but why are people so obsessed with it? Traditional bigs are not all that valuable in today’s NBA.
Also, I disagree Marcus is overqualified as a 6th man. That’s exactly what he’s made for. A great 6th man is a guy who can easily start for you when you need it but you’d prefer he wasn’t a starter on a top team and he’s a guy who has versatility in some way. Smart can run the offense, be solid as a scorer in the right matchup and defend up and down the lineup.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Feb 10, 2020 10:01:59 GMT -5
Honestly I'm against trading Smart but there are only a few dials to turn if Danny feels the need to try to reach the next level.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 10, 2020 10:46:55 GMT -5
Let’s be honest. Tatum and Brown are the next level or they aren’t and really it’s likely Tatum. Does he become a top 5-10 guy or not? It’s amazing we are sitting here in year 3 confident he’s a top defender at least in a team concept. That paves the way for him to be a 2 way beast. His play making development has taken a quiet leap forward. Now it’s about scoring efficiency at all 3 levels.
I’m not suggesting peripheral and supporting moves aren’t important but the ceiling hinges on those guys.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 10, 2020 16:34:57 GMT -5
I get wanting a big man but why are people so obsessed with it? Traditional bigs are not all that valuable in today’s NBA. Also, I disagree Marcus is overqualified as a 6th man. That’s exactly what he’s made for. A great 6th man is a guy who can easily start for you when you need it but you’d prefer he wasn’t a starter on a top team and he’s a guy who has versatility in some way. Smart can run the offense, be solid as a scorer in the right matchup and defend up and down the lineup. Umm because we have seen us get killed by bigger teams many times this year. Heck last game there was over a ten rebound advantage in the first half, which is why we were down. That was with Adams and Noel. The top of the East all have size. It makes sense to have an option like Bismack Biyombo. A guy who can rebound and defend at a high level. You don't need a 30 minute a night guy, but having the option to go big with a guy like Baynes is still something that is very useful in today NBA. Don't let last game against the Sixers fool you, when Embiid was clearly not in shape after missing games with an injury. Their size killed us the first three games. We're just lucky Simmons can't shoot, which forces Embiid to stretch the floor. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2020 6:08:07 GMT -5
I get wanting a big man but why are people so obsessed with it? Traditional bigs are not all that valuable in today’s NBA. Also, I disagree Marcus is overqualified as a 6th man. That’s exactly what he’s made for. A great 6th man is a guy who can easily start for you when you need it but you’d prefer he wasn’t a starter on a top team and he’s a guy who has versatility in some way. Smart can run the offense, be solid as a scorer in the right matchup and defend up and down the lineup. Umm because we have seen us get killed by bigger teams many times this year. Heck last game there was over a ten rebound advantage in the first half, which is why we were down. That was with Adams and Noel. The top of the East all have size. It makes sense to have an option like Bismack Biyombo. A guy who can rebound and defend at a high level. You don't need a 30 minute a night guy, but having the option to go big with a guy like Baynes is still something that is very useful in today NBA. Don't let last game against the Sixers fool you, when Embiid was clearly not in shape after missing games with an injury. Their size killed us the first three games. We're just lucky Simmons can't shoot, which forces Embiid to stretch the floor. Sorry let me be more clear. Obsessed with getting a big named big money big. Like Adams or Capella or Drummond. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 11, 2020 14:43:38 GMT -5
Why wouldn't you want a Drummond or Capela? Drummond was just traded for a 2nd round pick and Capela and a first for Covington.
Our problem is we had no crap contracts to trade. So every trade involved Hayward or Smart. You don't trade those guys for a center. Yet if we are just talking why do we want a center. It's simple, Theis is very good guarding small ball centers. Yet he doesn't add much on offense, isn't a great rebounder and can't guard actual centers. Kanter can score and rebound, but a smart team that is good at pick and roll or teams will good post scorers can cause him problems.
A team built on D, could reach a new level with a more rounded center. A guy that can dominate the paint. We don't have that and I truly fear good coaches will expose that in the playoffs. Robert Williams was the type of guy that could have changed that, but he's raw and needed playing time yet has missed half the season. Going forward maybe we don't need anyone if he reaches his ceiling. He made a massive jump from year one to this year, but still has a long way to go.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2020 18:10:08 GMT -5
Why wouldn't you want a Drummond or Capela? Drummond was just traded for a 2nd round pick and Capela and a first for Covington. Our problem is we had no crap contracts to trade. So every trade involved Hayward or Smart. You don't trade those guys for a center. Yet if we are just talking why do we want a center. It's simple, Theis is very good guarding small ball centers. Yet he doesn't add much on offense, isn't a great rebounder and can't guard actual centers. Kanter can score and rebound, but a smart team that is good at pick and roll or teams will good post scorers can cause him problems. A team built on D, could reach a new level with a more rounded center. A guy that can dominate the paint. We don't have that and I truly fear good coaches will expose that in the playoffs. Robert Williams was the type of guy that could have changed that, but he's raw and needed playing time yet has missed half the season. Going forward maybe we don't need anyone if he reaches his ceiling. He made a massive jump from year one to this year, but still has a long way to go. I don’t want Drummond or Capela for the reasons you just stated. Why are we going fantasy land? Yea, sure I want one of those guys if you can magically add them to the team, but it doesn’t work that way. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 11, 2020 22:39:55 GMT -5
Tatum is playing some DPOY level of defense right now, like maybe not the top spot but definitely in the conversation. Refs were really atrocious in this one, it's a small miracle to be ahead at the break.
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 12, 2020 0:12:48 GMT -5
Ugh. I appreciate the effort to make it a game even when the whole team seems to be off, but they got within 2 late and had 2 guys on Rockets with 5 fouls and then it all came undone. It's frustrating and worrisome because they've had problems with execution in the 4th all season long, even in wins.
Kanter against the Rockets is a massive failure, team had to play zone because there was no other way to play defense. Theis wasn't great either. My early feeling about the Rockets was true tonight, it's really hard to guard them AND score on them. Very switchable defense, very spaced out offense. Great stuff, don't sleep on the Rockets this playoffs.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 12, 2020 6:37:58 GMT -5
Ugh. I appreciate the effort to make it a game even when the whole team seems to be off, but they got within 2 late and had 2 guys on Rockets with 5 fouls and then it all came undone. It's frustrating and worrisome because they've had problems with execution in the 4th all season long, even in wins. Kanter against the Rockets is a massive failure, team had to play zone because there was no other way to play defense. Theis wasn't great either. My early feeling about the Rockets was true tonight, it's really hard to guard them AND score on them. Very switchable defense, very spaced out offense. Great stuff, don't sleep on the Rockets this playoffs. I did not see the game but a top team on the road is hard to beat. The playoffs is when the Rockets experiment really matters. Beyond the obvious, in a series it’s about matchups and game planing and adjustments. How can the Rockets deal with that? Or are they so good it doesn’t matter. |
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Post by sarasoxer on Feb 12, 2020 9:57:02 GMT -5
Why wouldn't you want a Drummond or Capela? Drummond was just traded for a 2nd round pick and Capela and a first for Covington. Our problem is we had no crap contracts to trade. So every trade involved Hayward or Smart. You don't trade those guys for a center. Yet if we are just talking why do we want a center. It's simple, Theis is very good guarding small ball centers. Yet he doesn't add much on offense, isn't a great rebounder and can't guard actual centers. Kanter can score and rebound, but a smart team that is good at pick and roll or teams will good post scorers can cause him problems. A team built on D, could reach a new level with a more rounded center. A guy that can dominate the paint. We don't have that and I truly fear good coaches will expose that in the playoffs. Robert Williams was the type of guy that could have changed that, but he's raw and needed playing time yet has missed half the season. Going forward maybe we don't need anyone if he reaches his ceiling. He made a massive jump from year one to this year, but still has a long way to go. Robert Williams, athlete that he is, is still only 6'8". He doesn't have bulk....His quickness and leaping ability will help, but at that size I'm not sure how much of a deterrent he would be against the big centers. Still, nice to have him as a relief guy and against small ball teams. |
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 12, 2020 10:10:42 GMT -5
Why wouldn't you want a Drummond or Capela? Drummond was just traded for a 2nd round pick and Capela and a first for Covington. Our problem is we had no crap contracts to trade. So every trade involved Hayward or Smart. You don't trade those guys for a center. Yet if we are just talking why do we want a center. It's simple, Theis is very good guarding small ball centers. Yet he doesn't add much on offense, isn't a great rebounder and can't guard actual centers. Kanter can score and rebound, but a smart team that is good at pick and roll or teams will good post scorers can cause him problems. A team built on D, could reach a new level with a more rounded center. A guy that can dominate the paint. We don't have that and I truly fear good coaches will expose that in the playoffs. Robert Williams was the type of guy that could have changed that, but he's raw and needed playing time yet has missed half the season. Going forward maybe we don't need anyone if he reaches his ceiling. He made a massive jump from year one to this year, but still has a long way to go. Robert Williams, athlete that he is, is still only 6'8". He doesn't have bulk....His quickness and leaping ability will help, but at that size I'm not sure how much of a deterrent he would be against the big centers. Still, nice to have him as a relief guy and against small ball teams. Williams has a 7'6" wingspan, which matters so much more than height. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 12, 2020 10:13:58 GMT -5
Why wouldn't you want a Drummond or Capela? Drummond was just traded for a 2nd round pick and Capela and a first for Covington. Our problem is we had no crap contracts to trade. So every trade involved Hayward or Smart. You don't trade those guys for a center. Yet if we are just talking why do we want a center. It's simple, Theis is very good guarding small ball centers. Yet he doesn't add much on offense, isn't a great rebounder and can't guard actual centers. Kanter can score and rebound, but a smart team that is good at pick and roll or teams will good post scorers can cause him problems. A team built on D, could reach a new level with a more rounded center. A guy that can dominate the paint. We don't have that and I truly fear good coaches will expose that in the playoffs. Robert Williams was the type of guy that could have changed that, but he's raw and needed playing time yet has missed half the season. Going forward maybe we don't need anyone if he reaches his ceiling. He made a massive jump from year one to this year, but still has a long way to go. I don’t want Drummond or Capela for the reasons you just stated. Why are we going fantasy land? Yea, sure I want one of those guys if you can magically add them to the team, but it doesn’t work that way. Umm you could have landed both actually without trading any of those guys. It's just the type of trade you make in the off-season when you can easily fill in roster depth and build chemistry. Like I wouldn't have traded Theis, Kanter and Poirier for Capela now. Yet I would in the off-season. Didn't we both talk about making a trade to add salary so you could make future trades also? I don't get thinking it's fantasy land. We have the draft capital to make it happen. So it really is who do you want and is it worth it? Unfortunately Capela is gone now, he was a twitchy type athlete. The kinda guy in the right defense that couldn't easily be exposed in pick and rolls. He was young enough to grow with Tatum and Brown, yet also help now. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 12, 2020 10:27:51 GMT -5
Why wouldn't you want a Drummond or Capela? Drummond was just traded for a 2nd round pick and Capela and a first for Covington. Our problem is we had no crap contracts to trade. So every trade involved Hayward or Smart. You don't trade those guys for a center. Yet if we are just talking why do we want a center. It's simple, Theis is very good guarding small ball centers. Yet he doesn't add much on offense, isn't a great rebounder and can't guard actual centers. Kanter can score and rebound, but a smart team that is good at pick and roll or teams will good post scorers can cause him problems. A team built on D, could reach a new level with a more rounded center. A guy that can dominate the paint. We don't have that and I truly fear good coaches will expose that in the playoffs. Robert Williams was the type of guy that could have changed that, but he's raw and needed playing time yet has missed half the season. Going forward maybe we don't need anyone if he reaches his ceiling. He made a massive jump from year one to this year, but still has a long way to go. Robert Williams, athlete that he is, is still only 6'8". He doesn't have bulk....His quickness and leaping ability will help, but at that size I'm not sure how much of a deterrent he would be against the big centers. Still, nice to have him as a relief guy and against small ball teams. Doesn't have bulk compared to who? Capela is 6'10" 240, Embiid is 7' 240, Williams is 6'8" 237 and I wouldn't be surprised to see him close to 250 be age 25. With him it's not size, strength or ability. It's experience and NBA Knowledge/IQ. Not going for pump takes, not trying to block every shot, crap like that. The guy blocked Anthony Davis a bunch of times in one game, he was blocking his jump shots. The announcers were like I've never seen Anthony Davis jump shot get blocked before. His wingspan combined with his athletic ability makes for an unreal combo if he develops. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 12, 2020 10:42:51 GMT -5
Ugh. I appreciate the effort to make it a game even when the whole team seems to be off, but they got within 2 late and had 2 guys on Rockets with 5 fouls and then it all came undone. It's frustrating and worrisome because they've had problems with execution in the 4th all season long, even in wins. Kanter against the Rockets is a massive failure, team had to play zone because there was no other way to play defense. Theis wasn't great either. My early feeling about the Rockets was true tonight, it's really hard to guard them AND score on them. Very switchable defense, very spaced out offense. Great stuff, don't sleep on the Rockets this playoffs. I hardly got to watch any of the game, had to clear snow. Yet was it the D or just Tatum, Walker and Smart all having off nights? Tatum wasn't even good from the FT line. Game planning in the playoffs will change everything and you don't get much of that during the regular season. Kanter will absolutely be exposed on D, yet for him to have value you need to force feed him inside. Tucker isn't guarding him inside over a seven game series. Yet doing that isn't part of the Celtics regular game plan. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 12, 2020 11:49:23 GMT -5
I don’t want Drummond or Capela for the reasons you just stated. Why are we going fantasy land? Yea, sure I want one of those guys if you can magically add them to the team, but it doesn’t work that way. Umm you could have landed both actually without trading any of those guys. It's just the type of trade you make in the off-season when you can easily fill in roster depth and build chemistry. Like I wouldn't have traded Theis, Kanter and Poirier for Capela now. Yet I would in the off-season. Didn't we both talk about making a trade to add salary so you could make future trades also? I don't get thinking it's fantasy land. We have the draft capital to make it happen. So it really is who do you want and is it worth it? Unfortunately Capela is gone now, he was a twitchy type athlete. The kinda guy in the right defense that couldn't easily be exposed in pick and rolls. He was young enough to grow with Tatum and Brown, yet also help now. Yes, I want to add salary to be able to make trades. I was responding to talk of trading from the core and I’ve never said I don’t want a center. It’s not my money I’ll add anyone who can help. When the time comes when the Celtics are in a spot to add a Center at a reasonable costs let’s talk. But we haven’t had that situation yet so again we are in a fantasy world. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 12, 2020 11:58:26 GMT -5
I hardly got to watch any of the game, had to clear snow. Yet was it the D or just Tatum, Walker and Smart all having off nights? Tatum wasn't even good from the FT line. Game planning in the playoffs will change everything and you don't get much of that during the regular season. Kanter will absolutely be exposed on D, yet for him to have value you need to force feed him inside. Tucker isn't guarding him inside over a seven game series. Yet doing that isn't part of the Celtics regular game plan. It was a mix of both, the Rockets played some aggressive defense and got away with more contact than the Celtics did. But guys just didn't have it. Walker looked tentative and tried to finish through contact far too much when he just wasn't getting the calls. Tatum was so bad he airballed a FT, though he was much better in the 4th during a stretch where he attacked on several possessions. The shot was way off though. Smart was Smart, he shot some really bad ones. He airballed a relatively open turnaround jumpshot from the paint lol. I don't think the Rockets can be solved with game planning. You can't play any big man against them that isn't highly mobile. If you won't have a guy like Anthony Davis, they're going to run laps around you. Ideally, you'd think Kanter would score inside like crazy. But yet they deny him the ball, Tucker is a stout defender inside and they just fly all over the court. And on defense you have to play zone or they will ALWAYS have an open shooter. Always. Problem is, Westbrook and Harden will punish you for playing zone. It's a tough one, I was really impressed. I did not see the game but a top team on the road is hard to beat. The playoffs is when the Rockets experiment really matters. Beyond the obvious, in a series it’s about matchups and game planing and adjustments. How can the Rockets deal with that? Or are they so good it doesn’t matter. They're a shooting team and to quote some Charles Barkley here, never trust a shooting team. They could go cold over a series and that's that. But if that doesn't happen, I think they could chip. They just have too many options and the defense really surprised me. Plus, they have Harden. Harden is just ridiculous at this point. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 12, 2020 14:22:34 GMT -5
Umm you could have landed both actually without trading any of those guys. It's just the type of trade you make in the off-season when you can easily fill in roster depth and build chemistry. Like I wouldn't have traded Theis, Kanter and Poirier for Capela now. Yet I would in the off-season. Didn't we both talk about making a trade to add salary so you could make future trades also? I don't get thinking it's fantasy land. We have the draft capital to make it happen. So it really is who do you want and is it worth it? Unfortunately Capela is gone now, he was a twitchy type athlete. The kinda guy in the right defense that couldn't easily be exposed in pick and rolls. He was young enough to grow with Tatum and Brown, yet also help now. Yes, I want to add salary to be able to make trades. I was responding to talk of trading from the core and I’ve never said I don’t want a center. It’s not my money I’ll add anyone who can help. When the time comes when the Celtics are in a spot to add a Center at a reasonable costs let’s talk. But we haven’t had that situation yet so again we are in a fantasy world. I'm kinda confused because we just had that option on two darn good centers in Capela and Drummond. I wouldn't have done it for Chemistry reasons. Yet Danny could have traded for Capela without touching any core pieces. Then made a trade for a guy like Woods to replenish depth. I get why he didn't, but that option was there. Reports say he talked with both teams about those players. So I just don't get the fantasy world part. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 12, 2020 17:10:37 GMT -5
Yes, I want to add salary to be able to make trades. I was responding to talk of trading from the core and I’ve never said I don’t want a center. It’s not my money I’ll add anyone who can help. When the time comes when the Celtics are in a spot to add a Center at a reasonable costs let’s talk. But we haven’t had that situation yet so again we are in a fantasy world. I'm kinda confused because we just had that option on two darn good centers in Capela and Drummond. I wouldn't have done it for Chemistry reasons. Yet Danny could have traded for Capela without touching any core pieces. Then made a trade for a guy like Woods to replenish depth. I get why he didn't, but that option was there. Reports say he talked with both teams about those players. So I just don't get the fantasy world part. The fantasy aspect is this isn’t PlayStation. Houston wants to win a Title so to get Capella you would have had to trade from your core. Just making up a trade to match salary doesn’t work in real life. You need to match salary and team needs. They clearly wanted a guy like Covington which means on our roster they’d need to get a Brown, Hayward or Smart. Drummond has a huge salary so you needed to deal Hayward to get him and Detroit likely wouldn’t want Hayward as they are tearing it down it seems. Trading Hayward would also be a nonstarter for the Celtics unless it was some weird 3 team deal where you get more back but it’s highly unlikely. Woods wasn’t available that’s been reported. Danny asked and was shut down. So unless you’re talking some massive overpay for a rental then it’s not a realistic trade. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 12, 2020 18:03:04 GMT -5
They did a four team trade, the Hawks traded Evan Turner, Nets 2020 pick lottery protected and a 2024 Warriors second round pick and got Capela. I'm not playing PlayStation that is what the Hawks paid to get him. Why are we talking about reinventing the wheel? We could have offered a better pick, yet would you even need to? Theis and Kanter have more value than Turner and can easily be moved if they didn't want them. The trade was right there, the Hawks traded basically a first round pick to get Capela.
Why are we talking about Brown, Smart or Hayward? I'm even more confused now. Houston could have got the exact same thing they did.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 12, 2020 19:24:43 GMT -5
They did a four team trade, the Hawks traded Evan Turner, Nets 2020 pick lottery protected and a 2024 Warriors second round pick and got Capela. I'm not playing PlayStation that is what the Hawks paid to get him. Why are we talking about reinventing the wheel? We could have offered a better pick, yet would you even need to? Theis and Kanter have more value than Turner and can easily be moved if they didn't want them. The trade was right there, the Hawks traded basically a first round pick to get Capela. Why are we talking about Brown, Smart or Hayward? I'm even more confused now. Houston could have got the exact same thing they did. That’s fair on the Capela front i overlooked that piece. Still don’t see how it could make sense decimating your front court to match the salary and adding Woods wouldn’t be an option to replace Kanter and Theis. Drummond definitely wasn’t a real option fir them. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 13, 2020 13:21:32 GMT -5
The same package could have got you Drummond, yet it's a lot more complicated. You needed to trade up for salary. The example used was trading for Thompson, then flipping him for Drummond.
I have to admit I might have been wrong about Woods, he's blowing up without Drummond and with him now starting. Over 20 points in six of his last thirteen games. He might we'll have been worth a first round pick!
My point from the beginning was the option was there to add these guys without touching our core. The question was always was it worth it. Not that we couldn't do it and it was fantasy land type crap. I read ten different articles on the many ways it was possible.
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