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2019-20 Boston Celtics Season
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Post by philarhody on Aug 24, 2020 22:18:39 GMT -5
Also, let’s be careful comparing his overall game to Melo. Luca just averaged more points than Melo ever did in his career (albeit barely but he’s also 20), he just averaged more assists by over double than Melo ever did and more rebounds by over a full board a game than Melo ever did. Oh and his eFG% was higher than Melos ever was. So one season and he beat all of Melos career highs in any single season. And if we eliminate the last 3 years I’d Melos career where he’s been a shell he did so in fewer minutes than Melo ever played. So basically Luca at 20 is in a different stratosphere than Melo ever was on offense. The scary thing is Luca will likely get more efficient as he gets older. His defense is weak, let’s see what Dallas does build that team around him and how he develops in that area. He’s never going to be a great one on one defender, especially on the perimeter. Yeah he's not Melo, he actually makes his teammates better on offense. It's just the best comp that comes to mind with an elite scorer being so bad on defense. The way Melo put all his energy into offense. It's really something you don't see that often. Maybe Steve Nash would be a better comp, yet I can't remember much about his D. Just that it wasn't good. I think you’re overrating how negative Doncic is on defense. 8 defensive rebounds a game from your point guard is real production. He’ll never win dpoy. But he is tied in a playoff series against the best player in the world. And he’s been the best player in that series.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 24, 2020 23:12:28 GMT -5
I think you’re overrating how negative Doncic is on defense. 8 defensive rebounds a game from your point guard is real production. He’ll never win dpoy. But he is tied in a playoff series against the best player in the world. And he’s been the best player in that series. I really do think his bad defense is due to lack of experience. He doesn't lack any physical tools to be at least decent.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 25, 2020 0:09:22 GMT -5
A little bit yeah, but I also believe they really think he's the best player in the NBA also. I'm messing with you umass However, Luka is really impressive. To take down a title contender without the second best player on your team and to do it with 43 points, 17 rebounds and 13 assists AND hitting that absolutely insane final shot. Going against elite wing defenders by the way. When you consider the context, it's downright unprecedented. There are many questions with Luka, mainly if he can be just average on defense instead of really bad (although I reject the notion he's the worst defender out there right now, come on man lol). Dude IS up there among the best players in the league right now. Let me frame this differently. You're a GM and you can pick any player to start your franchise and run it for the next 7 years. Considering what we know, how many guys do you choose before Luka? In the conversation maybe, he's not in my top five though right now. Since 2008 I'm a big believer in Defense. That's a crazy hard question and a weird seven year timeline. No questions I'm taking Giannis and Tatum. I'd have to think hard on Simmons. That timeline likely eliminates Embiid, Leonard, Harden, Durant, likely 42 year old LeBron maybe, Curry, Jokic, etc. I'd have to watch more tape on a few guys like Mitchell and Morant. If the point is that it's a short list, yes 100%. Yet I wouldn't be surprised if Brown is a Leonard type two way beast in a few years either. A guy like Siakam maybe, let you know about that one after the series. Yet he's in that conversation for me. The Clippers don't look that good without Beverly. He's like there Smart. Heck the Lakers don't look good without Rondo, with only James being able to create. Also without Bradley. He's got a golden opportunity. The West doesn't look that tough, the East looks much better.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 25, 2020 0:19:17 GMT -5
Yeah he's not Melo, he actually makes his teammates better on offense. It's just the best comp that comes to mind with an elite scorer being so bad on defense. The way Melo put all his energy into offense. It's really something you don't see that often. Maybe Steve Nash would be a better comp, yet I can't remember much about his D. Just that it wasn't good. I think you’re overrating how negative Doncic is on defense. 8 defensive rebounds a game from your point guard is real production. He’ll never win dpoy. But he is tied in a playoff series against the best player in the world. And he’s been the best player in that series. Focus on his D next time. It's horrible. He's not a good defender and he hardly even tries half the time. He gets so many Defensive rebounds because he floats on D and basically focuses on rebounds over actually playing D. Like if he would actually play D and get that many it would be great. I will give you he's very good reading angles and getting in the right spot. Yet the fact he spends the time doing that is part of his issues. He's also not playing PG on D, like not even close. I don't think Leonard is the best player, yet he's right up there.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 25, 2020 0:35:01 GMT -5
I think you’re overrating how negative Doncic is on defense. 8 defensive rebounds a game from your point guard is real production. He’ll never win dpoy. But he is tied in a playoff series against the best player in the world. And he’s been the best player in that series. I really do think his bad defense is due to lack of experience. He doesn't lack any physical tools to be at least decent. Doncic is easily the most skilled young player I've ever seen. With more pro experience than any player ever at his age. It's much more than just experience, he lacks effort and skill. I can see okay if he's plays with a lot of effort. Yet what does that do to his offense? Not a ton of elite two way guys and even fewer complete game two way monsters. There's a reason for that. I bet you could make a good argument that to get this Doncic on offense, you need to except this Doncic on D. It's the trade off, that the difference on D wouldn't be big enough compared to the effect on his offense. Now if he can find a way to do both at this level we can talk about him being the best player. Yet not Likely over Tatum🤣
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 25, 2020 19:00:14 GMT -5
I bet you could make a good argument that to get this Doncic on offense, you need to except this Doncic on D. It's the trade off, that the difference on D wouldn't be big enough compared to the effect on his offense. Now if he can find a way to do both at this level we can talk about him being the best player. Yet not Likely over Tatum🤣 To be fair, he really doesn't need to be anything more than pedestrian on defense to be on "best player in the game" radar. Dude just led the best offensive rating team of all time as a 21 year old. On that 7 year plan I mentioned in my previous post, I think there's only two guys I'm picking before Luka and that's Giannis and Tatum. Shame the Porzingod is out tonight man, this series had some real upset potential if not for that bullshit ejection and now injuries.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 25, 2020 23:54:05 GMT -5
I bet you could make a good argument that to get this Doncic on offense, you need to except this Doncic on D. It's the trade off, that the difference on D wouldn't be big enough compared to the effect on his offense. Now if he can find a way to do both at this level we can talk about him being the best player. Yet not Likely over Tatum🤣 To be fair, he really doesn't need to be anything more than pedestrian on defense to be on "best player in the game" radar. Dude just led the best offensive rating team of all time as a 21 year old. On that 7 year plan I mentioned in my previous post, I think there's only two guys I'm picking before Luka and that's Giannis and Tatum. Shame the Porzingod is out tonight man, this series had some real upset potential if not for that bullshit ejection and now injuries. Umm "best offensive rating team of all time" was the 7th seed. I wonder why? Maybe just trying to outscore the other team doesn't work game in and game out. The Celtics were 4th this year and that's crazy funny. They weren't even that good. Hayward was out, Tatum struggled for a few months, Smart was hot/cold and Kemba missed a bunch of time. Yet they played D, tons of it. I could see a bunch of GMs acting like you. Heck it's a safe pick and a big draw. Yet it's going to be difficult building a good two-way team with him. Name the last team to win a Championship that wasn't a good two way team? Steve Nash won two MVPs and had a crazy offense in that time. Yet he couldn't win Championship's.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 25, 2020 23:58:59 GMT -5
Steve Nash won two MVPs and had a crazy offense in that time. Yet he couldn't win Championship's. Steve Nash had bad luck with injuries and got cheated out by the Spurs, particularly that one series where Bruce Bowen almost killed him and guys were suspended for leaving the bench. I understand your point, but I'm not saying Luka doesn't need to improve on defense. I'm saying he will. And that he only needs to be adequate out there on that end.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 26, 2020 15:41:38 GMT -5
Bucks boycotted the game today - I guess I get the gesture, but unless it’s a complete shutdown and boycott what’s the point?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 26, 2020 15:46:25 GMT -5
www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpmThis basically sums up my thought process. Now RPM isn't perfect, because who you play with matters and it favor bigs in Defensive rankings. Like Dallas does a very good job hiding Doncic like the Celtics used to do with Thomas. Yet it highlights how good Doncic would need to be on offense to be the best even if he's D was zero, not negative. Even the great Harden needs above average D to reach his level. Doncic would need to be over twice as good as he is right now on offense to equal Giannis. They also highlight how good the Celtics can be, given the Tatum we see now on offense is hardly the Tatum we had for the full year. Also don't let those ranking fool you into thinking Doncic isn't that bad. Him hunting rebounds is the only reason those numbers aren't crazy bad. The formula for D uses rebounds as a big part of it. It treats Doncic as a forward, not guard. It's part of the reason a guy like Gobert is #1 almost every year. It actually highlights how bad Doncic is even getting elite level rebounds for his position. It also highlights my point of maybe this is the best way to use him. Rather than wear him out trying to play D that he'll never be good at. You have him focus on offense and getting you rebounds on D. Hope he can reach Curry like efficiency on offense. Which isn't crazy. It's really the only thing that makes sense given his coach, who I really respect.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 26, 2020 16:00:59 GMT -5
Bucks boycotted the game today - I guess I get the gesture, but unless it’s a complete shutdown and boycott what’s the point? If any other ONE team boycotted, I'd question the point as well. That it's the "hometown" team, though (and, remember, one who has a teammate who is still involved in a Police Brutality case) it makes sense. That being said, I think this is just tip of the iceberg. Orlando is reportedly not accepting the forfeit and Lakers/Blazers are, reportedly, leaning that way. Meanwhile, it was reported that most C's/Raptors players wanted to play. I wonder if this changes things. They may need to shut it down, at least for a while to determine how they (the NBA) can really lead change.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 26, 2020 16:18:02 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 26, 2020 16:20:03 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 26, 2020 16:22:14 GMT -5
Bucks boycotted the game today - I guess I get the gesture, but unless it’s a complete shutdown and boycott what’s the point? If any other ONE team boycotted, I'd question the point as well. That it's the "hometown" team, though (and, remember, one who has a teammate who is still involved in a Police Brutality case) it makes sense. That being said, I think this is just tip of the iceberg. Orlando is reportedly not accepting the forfeit and Lakers/Blazers are, reportedly, leaning that way. Meanwhile, it was reported that most C's/Raptors players wanted to play. I wonder if this changes things. They may need to shut it down, at least for a while to determine how they (the NBA) can really lead change. I’m only questioning the point if there’s not a lot more to it than not playing a game. They’ve put themselves in a spot where they are refusing to play until there’s real change. Well real change isn’t a short order thing. Also, no one has really laid out specifically what they want, at least nothing that makes any sense. The only specific people are the ones who want to abolish the police all together.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 26, 2020 17:42:08 GMT -5
That's the case Hill is talking about and a ton of other players and coaches. I had to look it up after hearing what they were saying. Do what you want with it, yet it seems clear to me what the players should be preaching.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 26, 2020 17:47:25 GMT -5
If any other ONE team boycotted, I'd question the point as well. That it's the "hometown" team, though (and, remember, one who has a teammate who is still involved in a Police Brutality case) it makes sense. That being said, I think this is just tip of the iceberg. Orlando is reportedly not accepting the forfeit and Lakers/Blazers are, reportedly, leaning that way. Meanwhile, it was reported that most C's/Raptors players wanted to play. I wonder if this changes things. They may need to shut it down, at least for a while to determine how they (the NBA) can really lead change. I’m only questioning the point if there’s not a lot more to it than not playing a game. They’ve put themselves in a spot where they are refusing to play until there’s real change. Well real change isn’t a short order thing. Also, no one has really laid out specifically what they want, at least nothing that makes any sense. The only specific people are the ones who want to abolish the police all together. Not sure athletes have the power (nor should they) to set policy. But they absolutely have the power to get those who do have it to start acting. Games have been postponed (no forfeits) and there is a meeting tonight to talk about how to proceed. MLB teams may similarly action as the Cincy/Milwaukee game has already been postponed.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 26, 2020 18:17:17 GMT -5
That's the case Hill is talking about and a ton of other players and coaches. I had to look it up after hearing what they were saying. Do what you want with it, yet it seems clear to me what the players should be preaching. Gotcha, yes I’m familiar with it. Saw both videos, am waiting for more information from the investigation.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 26, 2020 20:51:19 GMT -5
It also highlights my point of maybe this is the best way to use him. Rather than wear him out trying to play D that he'll never be good at. You have him focus on offense and getting you rebounds on D. Hope he can reach Curry like efficiency on offense. Which isn't crazy. It's really the only thing that makes sense given his coach, who I really respect. Not sure about GOOD, but he has all the tools to be at least average. And he reached Curry like efficiency on offense. Again, he led the best offensive rating season of all time and that was a team that had good weapons but was far from a juggernaut. This whole discussion is moot by the way since: Season could be over anyway. Joke's on us.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 26, 2020 21:05:23 GMT -5
Stick a fork in it. It's done baby.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 27, 2020 5:18:57 GMT -5
Stick a fork in it. It's done baby. Once the Bucks decided not to play, they put the rest of the teams in a spot where they had to follow. Now, they need to take it further or I’m not sure how they justify playing so I would expect this season to be over.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 27, 2020 5:41:59 GMT -5
The Lakers and Clippers voted to boycott the rest of the playoffs; the rest of the teams voted to finish the season. More talks tonight.
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shagworthy
Veteran
My neckbeard game is on point.
Posts: 1,864
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Post by shagworthy on Aug 27, 2020 7:28:41 GMT -5
Like any movement, I'm not sure where they go from here, but I back the players 100%. I am very interested to see what colesses from their meetings. My biggest fear for them, their kin, and the country is the only way the systemic racism changes in this country is by civil war. I'm afraid far more people are going to die before any of the issues that plague our society are even partially resolved.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Aug 27, 2020 8:45:46 GMT -5
I'm sure it doesn't feel as meaningful or impactful as they like, but every time someone like Jaylen Brown answers a post-game question about his 3 pointers with intense discussion of Breonna Taylor, he is amplifying his voice to folks that wouldn't hear them otherwise. People HAVE to listen when you're playing the games; if they are marching or leading protests outside the court they are more often preaching to the choir.
I hope they play, and take every non-court opportunity they want to say everything they want.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 27, 2020 10:02:31 GMT -5
Like any movement, I'm not sure where they go from here, but I back the players 100%. I am very interested to see what colesses from their meetings. My biggest fear for them, their kin, and the country is the only way the systemic racism changes in this country is by civil war. I'm afraid far more people are going to die before any of the issues that plague our society are even partially resolved. Deleted
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 27, 2020 10:10:43 GMT -5
The Lakers and Clippers voted to boycott the rest of the playoffs; the rest of the teams voted to finish the season. More talks tonight. Something about this report seems off, the part about the rest of the teams wanting to finish the season. It feels like there wouldn't be enough time for them to discuss among themselves and then all come to the same conclusion EXCEPT the LA teams. Personal opinion here, they're going to continue playing but wanted to feel like it got very close to stopping.
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