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Red Sox linked to using video replay room illegally
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Post by manfred on Jan 13, 2020 20:22:51 GMT -5
The Sox need discipline. They should replace Cora with a steady hand. I think Bobby Valentine would be perfect.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 13, 2020 20:29:45 GMT -5
When you ask that question first, you're blindly (and internationally) not even acknowledging what took place. Like it didn't even exist. It's infuriating to even have a conversation when one person just sticks his head in the sand about a subject, when everyone else is on the other side of the fence. I asked because I don't think what they're accused of gave them much advantage at all. I acknowledge that they probably stole the multiple sign code, that is often changed to sometimes help them and probably hurt them at other times when it was changed. If something else that has not been mentioned comes up, that may change. But to this point, I don't see a big deal if they did it or any other f'ing team did it, even the Yankees. That cannot be more different than what the Astros did and were punished for. Yet you and others are equating it because "cheating is cheating" without any regard for degree of advantage. I know for a fact that the Red Sox were changing their tells every time there was a runner on 2nd so any other team who "stole" their signs wouldn't be able to do anything at all with it. I cannot imagine that any other team wasn't also doing the same thing. You're not even acknowledging the fact that the Sox broke the same rule twice. No one really cares about this incident outside of being held accountable twice now. Yeah, this thing was not a big deal. Do not disagree there. They did something twice that was not a big deal. They didn't even need to do it to win, they were talented enough to win. They did it anyways. The Sox are going to get hammered for being more dumb than anything. That's the sad part in all of this.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 13, 2020 20:35:39 GMT -5
I asked because I don't think what they're accused of gave them much advantage at all. I acknowledge that they probably stole the multiple sign code, that is often changed to sometimes help them and probably hurt them at other times when it was changed. If something else that has not been mentioned comes up, that may change. But to this point, I don't see a big deal if they did it or any other f'ing team did it, even the Yankees. That cannot be more different than what the Astros did and were punished for. Yet you and others are equating it because "cheating is cheating" without any regard for degree of advantage. I know for a fact that the Red Sox were changing their tells every time there was a runner on 2nd so any other team who "stole" their signs wouldn't be able to do anything at all with it. I cannot imagine that any other team wasn't also doing the same thing. You're not even acknowledging the fact that the Sox broke the same rule twice. No one really cares about this incident outside of being held accountable twice now. Yeah, this thing was not a big deal. Do not disagree there. They did something twice that was not a big deal. They didn't even need to do it to win, they were talented enough to win. They did it anyways. The Sox are going to get hammered for being more dumb than anything. That's the sad part in all of this. That's f'ing ridiculous logic. You get a speeding ticket for going 1 mph over the limit twice and are fine with getting the death penalty.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 13, 2020 20:41:58 GMT -5
You're not even acknowledging the fact that the Sox broke the same rule twice. No one really cares about this incident outside of being held accountable twice now. Yeah, this thing was not a big deal. Do not disagree there. They did something twice that was not a big deal. They didn't even need to do it to win, they were talented enough to win. They did it anyways. The Sox are going to get hammered for being more dumb than anything. That's the sad part in all of this. That's f'ing ridiculous logic. You get a speeding ticket for going 1 mph over the limit twice and are fine with getting the death penalty. It's exactly what's been tweeted out and it's exactly what Manfred is going to do. So get ready to get ticked off. I know you already got your blaming shoes for Manfred ready. Go break a restraining order twice. See if that gets you same penalty each time. This is more in line with this logic here. This isn't some mild rule or infraction being broken. Manfred clearly stated what he was going to do after 2017 when the Sox broke the rule the first time. He's not playing around.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Jan 13, 2020 20:42:57 GMT -5
I asked because I don't think what they're accused of gave them much advantage at all. I acknowledge that they probably stole the multiple sign code, that is often changed to sometimes help them and probably hurt them at other times when it was changed. If something else that has not been mentioned comes up, that may change. But to this point, I don't see a big deal if they did it or any other f'ing team did it, even the Yankees. That cannot be more different than what the Astros did and were punished for. Yet you and others are equating it because "cheating is cheating" without any regard for degree of advantage. I know for a fact that the Red Sox were changing their tells every time there was a runner on 2nd so any other team who "stole" their signs wouldn't be able to do anything at all with it. I cannot imagine that any other team wasn't also doing the same thing. You're not even acknowledging the fact that the Sox broke the same rule twice. No one really cares about this incident outside of being held accountable twice now. Yeah, this thing was not a big deal. Do not disagree there. They did something twice that was not a big deal. They didn't even need to do it to win. They did it anyways. The Sox are going to get hammered for being more dumb than anything. That's the sad part in all of this. I'll bite here one more time, because all the repeat offender stuff is driving me crazy. Yes, the Red Sox were caught twice, but after the first time the league sent out a message to ALL TEAMS, including the Astros, saying they were going to start taking this more seriously. Before that point, it was essentially treated as a misdemeanor, which is why Boston got off with basically no punishment. The league now knows that the Astros were cheating both before and after that league-wide warning, just like the Red Sox. Why should Boston "get hammered" just because the original league-wide warning stemmed from their cheating rather than the Astros' cheating (which the league KNOWS about)? To be honest, I think Manfred and the league come off the worst here. Yes, it's bad to cheat, but when you make it so ridiculously easy to steal sings and then don't do anything about it, stealing signs stops feeling like cheating and starts feeling like speeding on the highway: not the right thing to do, but ultimately fine because everybody does it. They could have solved this problem in five seconds just by letting pitchers and catchers communicate electronically - if this is a big enough deal to suspend managers for a year, it should have been a big enough deal to take that very easy step.
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Post by caseytins on Jan 13, 2020 20:47:12 GMT -5
I mean, Cora is obviously done. The team will wait for MLB to issue the ruling first in order to save $. This is about to get super ugly. The tweets by folks like Logan Morrison is only the starting point. The Yankees and other teams have been doing worse things for years. It's just awful that the Red Sox were warned with the Apple watch. I expect a slightly lower draft pick penalty, but about the same fine, and more years/harsher penalties for Cora.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 13, 2020 20:52:30 GMT -5
You're not even acknowledging the fact that the Sox broke the same rule twice. No one really cares about this incident outside of being held accountable twice now. Yeah, this thing was not a big deal. Do not disagree there. They did something twice that was not a big deal. They didn't even need to do it to win. They did it anyways. The Sox are going to get hammered for being more dumb than anything. That's the sad part in all of this. I'll bite here one more time, because all the repeat offender stuff is driving me crazy. Yes, the Red Sox were caught twice, but after the first time the league sent out a message to ALL TEAMS, including the Astros, saying they were going to start taking this more seriously. Before that point, it was essentially treated as a misdemeanor, which is why Boston got off with basically no punishment. The league now knows that the Astros were cheating both before and after that league-wide warning, just like the Red Sox. Why should Boston "get hammered" just because the original league-wide warning stemmed from their cheating rather than the Astros' cheating (which the league KNOWS about)? Alright, I'm done arguing for the sake of repeating. I'll just retweet this good nugget from Passan, the best connection to inside information in all of baseball. Passan has been the very best since joining ESPN.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 13, 2020 20:54:12 GMT -5
Yeah, if they snuck a fitbit into the dugout, franchise should be stripped of Boston just because of that tweet. Context does not matter at all.
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Post by prangerx on Jan 13, 2020 21:00:21 GMT -5
When you ask that question first, you're blindly (and internationally) not even acknowledging what took place. Like it didn't even exist. It's infuriating to even have a conversation when one person just sticks his head in the sand about a subject, when everyone else is on the other side of the fence. I asked because I don't think what they're accused of gave them much advantage at all. I acknowledge that they probably stole the multiple sign code, that is often changed to sometimes help them and probably hurt them at other times when it was changed. If something else that has not been mentioned comes up, that may change. But to this point, I don't see a big deal if they did it or any other f'ing team did it, even the Yankees. That cannot be more different than what the Astros did and were punished for. Yet you and others are equating it because "cheating is cheating" without any regard for degree of advantage. I know for a fact that the Red Sox were changing their tells every time there was a runner on 2nd so any other team who "stole" their signs wouldn't be able to do anything at all with it. I cannot imagine that any other team wasn't also doing the same thing. The problem is the league warned them to stop with the shenanigans and informed every team digital sign stealing would be dealt with harshly. Now MLB is setting an example to deter teams from defying them.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 13, 2020 21:03:10 GMT -5
I asked because I don't think what they're accused of gave them much advantage at all. I acknowledge that they probably stole the multiple sign code, that is often changed to sometimes help them and probably hurt them at other times when it was changed. If something else that has not been mentioned comes up, that may change. But to this point, I don't see a big deal if they did it or any other f'ing team did it, even the Yankees. That cannot be more different than what the Astros did and were punished for. Yet you and others are equating it because "cheating is cheating" without any regard for degree of advantage. I know for a fact that the Red Sox were changing their tells every time there was a runner on 2nd so any other team who "stole" their signs wouldn't be able to do anything at all with it. I cannot imagine that any other team wasn't also doing the same thing. The problem is the league warned them to stop with the shenanigans and informed every team digital sign stealing would be dealt with harshly. Now MLB is setting an example to deter teams from defying them. Yes, and despite that, the punishment still must fit the crime. What the Astros did was 10 times worse, so the punishment should be about 1/10th as harsh. Because of the Apple Watch, which I still do not know how it helped them whatsoever, maybe 1/5th as harsh. But on no planet, should the punishments be almost equivalent just because of the stupid Apple Watch.
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Post by swingingbunt on Jan 13, 2020 21:18:06 GMT -5
Can you two just make a $100 bet to the Jimmy Fund and and spare us the next few pages of arguing?
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 13, 2020 21:24:57 GMT -5
You're not even acknowledging the fact that the Sox broke the same rule twice. No one really cares about this incident outside of being held accountable twice now. Yeah, this thing was not a big deal. Do not disagree there. They did something twice that was not a big deal. They didn't even need to do it to win, they were talented enough to win. They did it anyways. The Sox are going to get hammered for being more dumb than anything. That's the sad part in all of this. That's f'ing ridiculous logic. You get a speeding ticket for going 1 mph over the limit twice and are fine with getting the death penalty. How hard is it to just not break the rule after being caught once before and then given a friendly reminder thereafter? This thing has made local and national news stations. Cora, and most likely the Red Sox, will be punished for just that. Cora is absolutely gone. They're pinning him as the mastermind behind Houston's cheating and carried cheating to a new organization. The Red Sox cannot possibly get off easy like they did with the Apple watches. They explicitly told the league there would be nothing else and got off with no real punishment. This has now happened again, after they told the league they wouldn't. It's like punishing a 5 year old for doing something that wasn't allowed twice. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed it's not a 1st round pick.
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Post by libertine on Jan 13, 2020 21:36:52 GMT -5
MLB just used Houston as an example of its zero tolerance of cheating in the game. And just in case people still aren't convinced that MLB is serious about this the Red Sox will be example #2...regardless of whether what the Sox did was as bad as the Astros, or any other "mitigating" factors. I will not comment on whether it is "right or wrong" for MLB to do this. It is what it is.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 13, 2020 21:41:13 GMT -5
You're not even acknowledging the fact that the Sox broke the same rule twice. No one really cares about this incident outside of being held accountable twice now. Yeah, this thing was not a big deal. Do not disagree there. They did something twice that was not a big deal. They didn't even need to do it to win, they were talented enough to win. They did it anyways. The Sox are going to get hammered for being more dumb than anything. That's the sad part in all of this. That's f'ing ridiculous logic. You get a speeding ticket for going 1 mph over the limit twice and are fine with getting the death penalty. Jim, I think you're willfully missing the point. The Red Sox aren't going to get slammed because of two relatively minor infractions. They're going to get slammed because they went against Rob Manfred's authority. Manfred warned them after their first infraction and the Red Sox ignored him. Manfred would look very weak if he did nothing to them after they basically ignored his authority. Doing a minor penalty does nothing to deter other teams from being repeat offenders. In other words he's making an example of the Red Sox so that other teams don't decide that it's ok to challenge his authority.Instead of complaining about the lesser offense, it's on the Red Sox because they were warned not to challenge his authority and they did, which was quite dumb. They didn't even need to cheat to win. It was quite foolish. I won't put it all on Cora because I'm pretty sure what the Sox did most teams do and it wasn't as egregious as Houston and the Sox got dinged BEFORE Cora was hired to manage the Sox but given his major role with the Stros and the fact that he was manager of the Sox and didn't shut it down (more likely he condoned it based on the findings from the Houston investigation) means he will probably face a stiffer penalty than Hinch, and he should. The Sox shouldn't lose 4 draft picks, but I would anticipate that they lose two. They might lose their #1 pick this year and next or perhaps they lose their #1 and #2 this year only. The bottom line is don't mess around with Rob Manfred and MLB. Fine. They need to do this. Nobody liked it when it looked like MLB was looking the other way when it came to the PEDs issue. This electronics issue needs to be tackled.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 13, 2020 21:50:21 GMT -5
Can you two just make a $100 bet to the Jimmy Fund and and spare us the next few pages of arguing? I don't know if this is labeled towards me, but it's basically the entire board versus one maybe 2 people's opinion here.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 13, 2020 22:21:34 GMT -5
Can you two just make a $100 bet to the Jimmy Fund and and spare us the next few pages of arguing? I don't know if this is labeled towards me, but it's basically the entire board versus one maybe 2 people's opinion here. Only two are incessant.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 13, 2020 22:54:05 GMT -5
You know what bothers me, beyond the 2 pages of back and forth that wasn't really necessary, is that you are not just voicing your opinion you are actually debating for the Sox getting whacked hard, thus cheering for a bad result for the Sox. To prove you are right you want to see the Sox get slammed and that is not really what I would consider a fan. As has been discussed in other threads this is your MO, being overly negative is what you do regularly. Go ahead and respond if you would like but this is the end of it for me, I won't be going back and forth I will wait for the end result.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 14, 2020 0:33:01 GMT -5
You know what bothers me, beyond the 2 pages of back and forth that wasn't really necessary, is that you are not just voicing your opinion you are actually debating for the Sox getting whacked hard, thus cheering for a bad result for the Sox. To prove you are right you want to see the Sox get slammed and that is not really what I would consider a fan. As has been discussed in other threads this is your MO, being overly negative is what you do regularly. Go ahead and respond if you would like but this is the end of it for me, I won't be going back and forth I will wait for the end result. Ideally, no one wants the Red Sox to get hammered with penalties. No one really wants Cora fire. I think it's almost a foregone conclusion that Cora is getting a year, minimum. I don't think the Red Sox would want to hire a new GM and then stick him with a manager that he won't get to work with until his second year. The Red Sox potential penalties is an interesting case and I can see the arguing back and forth, but I don't see nationally respected sportswriters just completely fabricating information. The fact is, Manfred is dropping the hammer on teams right now to prove a point. I thought the St. Louis thing was completely silly and they lost a 2nd and a 4th. I think there's a pushback for what we as fans of this team think is fair and what we think MLB will want to do. No one will be "proven right" until there's a verdict. These squabblings make it so that people root for the negative, if only to prove a point. I strongly feel the Red Sox are going to suffer a very similar consequence as Houston. Would I like to be wrong? Sure. It just feels Homer-ish to expect that they're going to get a slap on the wrist or walk away unscathed.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 14, 2020 0:58:07 GMT -5
Hacking is the correct term. The vast majority of sites get hacked through social engineering and lapsed physical security - passwords taped to desks, doors left often, screens left on, idle talk at parties... that sort of thing. That's the gateway for what comes next. It's all part of the "hack". Can the hair-splitting, please. Technical term of gaining of unauthorized access to data in a system or computer is correct, though it is extremely misleading. He didn't social engineer, shoulder surf, phish, use any tools or programs. He literally just tried his old passwords and still had access after leaving the organization. Not saying what he did wasn't wrong, but what was done sounds much more sinister than the actual act. That is the very definition of physical security. If you're a systems manager and you don't take care of that stuff you're out of a job.
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Post by swingingbunt on Jan 14, 2020 8:49:04 GMT -5
You know what bothers me, beyond the 2 pages of back and forth that wasn't really necessary, is that you are not just voicing your opinion you are actually debating for the Sox getting whacked hard, thus cheering for a bad result for the Sox. To prove you are right you want to see the Sox get slammed and that is not really what I would consider a fan. As has been discussed in other threads this is your MO, being overly negative is what you do regularly. Go ahead and respond if you would like but this is the end of it for me, I won't be going back and forth I will wait for the end result. If I look outside my window and see a tornado coming, I'm going to warn my family and tell them we need to find shelter. If then, someone in the house argues with me and says, "That thing? That's not a tornado," then I'm not all of the sudden "cheering for the tornado" just because I argue with them because they're obviously wrong.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Jan 14, 2020 10:33:53 GMT -5
The Sox need discipline. They should replace Cora with a steady hand. I think Bobby Valentine would be perfect. Haha...Bobby V hiring contributed to me giving up me giving up my partial season tickets after 10+ years. I assume that you are being sarcastic.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,903
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Post by nomar on Jan 14, 2020 10:49:09 GMT -5
Holy s___ I need to stop checking twitter. If I see one more person use a 10 PA data set to “prove” someone was cheating in going to lose it.
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Post by manfred on Jan 14, 2020 10:58:18 GMT -5
The Sox need discipline. They should replace Cora with a steady hand. I think Bobby Valentine would be perfect. Haha...Bobby V hiring contributed to me giving up me giving up my partial season tickets after 10+ years. I assume that you are being sarcastic. Oh yeah. Just a good reminder of how bad things can really get.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 14, 2020 13:42:50 GMT -5
If they get the same draft pick penalty that Houston got, they should blow up the Luxury Tax goal. Of course, with all the top FAs gone now, probably moot, but still. This is a joke that MLB is apparently not investigating all teams but just the ones a reporter drew attention to. It’s headline chasing.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 14, 2020 13:56:32 GMT -5
If they get the same draft pick penalty that Houston got, they should blow up the Luxury Tax goal. Of course, with all the top FAs gone now, probably moot, but still. This is a joke that MLB is apparently not investigating all teams but just the ones a reporter drew attention to. It’s headline chasing. Is there any evidence that MLB is not investigating the other 6-7 teams?
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