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Coronavirus thread tangent
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Post by manfred on Apr 6, 2020 12:21:04 GMT -5
Fair question. If the USA statistically does better than other countries, does Trump get credit? He won't here with the snowflakes. I also doubt it with the do nothing Democrats but the voters will know. So far, the USA is near the bottom in terms of death rate for countries with a lot of cases If that continues everything will be red. Right. Of course, since we are already not doing better, I guess it is moot. By the way, we are already over 10,000 reported dead, with everyone acknowledging they are dramatically under-reporting. And... do-nothing Democrats? What does that even mean? Inslee and Newsome are probably leading the most successful efforts in America. Cuomo is “doing” what he can, especially since Jared strangely defines national resources as not for states. And at a federal level, Dems have no power to make Trump and his gang of lower-primates do anything. I am certain that at the end of this Trump will declare victory, saying if nothing had been done millions would die and it was just x thousands. And his idiot followers will prove he was literally correct in saying he could kill someone on 5th Avenue and still keep his base... except he’s killing hundreds a day on 5th Avenue. Edit: for numbers, NY reports today that between 180-195 people a die have died at home, almost certainly of Coronavirus, but they are not swabbing dead people. So that is a small example of how under-counted the deaths are at this point. |
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Post by incandenza on Apr 6, 2020 12:58:27 GMT -5
Fair question. If the USA statistically does better than other countries, does Trump get credit? He won't here with the snowflakes. I also doubt it with the do nothing Democrats but the voters will know. So far, the USA is near the bottom in terms of death rate for countries with a lot of cases If that continues everything will be red. Credit for what, exactly? For dismantling the NSC's pandemic response team in 2018? For discontinuing the position of an epidemiologist embedded with the Chinese CDC? For not doing anything to prepare for the pandemic by stockpiling and distributing medical supplies for months after it was obvious it was going to hit? For letting his spoiled and unqualified son-in-law take charge of the pandemic response? For, even now, not only failing to coordinate but actively interfering with states' abilities to get the resources they need? For his total (and literal) abdication of responsibility? What is it about his approach that you want to credit him for? Side note about the death rate: that's really a function of testing. Germany is doing a ton of testing; they're therefore picking up a larger share of infections and therefore have a lower death rate. The UK and France have less testing, hence a higher death rate. On top of that almost all countries are probably undercounting deaths. Do you think there's something about the American health care system (or Trump's bold leadership) that is lowering the fatality rate in the US? |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 6, 2020 13:12:57 GMT -5
Fair question. If the USA statistically does better than other countries, does Trump get credit? He won't here with the snowflakes. I also doubt it with the do nothing Democrats but the voters will know. So far, the USA is near the bottom in terms of death rate for countries with a lot of cases If that continues everything will be red. Right. Of course, since we are already not doing better, I guess it is moot. I think this is the point. Death rate: Italy: 12.46% World: 5.55% USA: 2.94% So, we're ahead of the world in this regard. |
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Post by fenwaydouble on Apr 6, 2020 13:13:39 GMT -5
Fair question. If the USA statistically does better than other countries, does Trump get credit? He won't here with the snowflakes. I also doubt it with the do nothing Democrats but the voters will know. So far, the USA is near the bottom in terms of death rate for countries with a lot of cases If that continues everything will be red. Right. Of course, since we are already not doing better, I guess it is moot. No no, but what if we WERE doing better?? Can you imagine how triggered the liberal snowflakes would be?? They'll never give Trump credit, even in the imaginary world where's he's not completely incompetent. |
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Post by manfred on Apr 6, 2020 13:17:22 GMT -5
Right. Of course, since we are already not doing better, I guess it is moot. I think this is the point. Death rate: Italy: 12.46% World: 5.55% USA: 2.94% So, we're ahead of the world in this regard. Here’s something I’ll grant: Italy was not a success story. But it is funny to go from #MAGA to “we’re not Italy!” |
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Post by sdiaz1 on Apr 6, 2020 13:31:49 GMT -5
I hope that everyone has enough sense to understand why just comparing official death rates by country is a dumb barometer of success?
1- Age of Population Italy is freaking old (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-deaths-from-coronavirus-are-so-high-in-italy/)
2- Inadequate testing. Today the Surgeon General said "everyone who needs a test now can get one" and then clarified that he really only meant that people with symptoms and are in a vulnerable population (elderly, immuno-suppressant, diabetic, ect) could get it. So if you are worried that you may have it and have family who falls into the category you still do not necessarily have access.
3- People are dying who not accounted for - which happens in every tragedy.
4- Certain countries are behind the curve of other countries. We have less deaths than Spain but Spain's cases are decreasing and ours are exploding.
5 - Some countries are obviously under reporting
These were just of the top of my head.
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Post by telson13 on Apr 6, 2020 14:45:38 GMT -5
Fair question. If the USA statistically does better than other countries, does Trump get credit? He won't here with the snowflakes. I also doubt it with the do nothing Democrats but the voters will know. So far, the USA is near the bottom in terms of death rate for countries with a lot of cases If that continues everything will be red. Right. Of course, since we are already not doing better, I guess it is moot. By the way, we are already over 10,000 reported dead, with everyone acknowledging they are dramatically under-reporting. And... do-nothing Democrats? What does that even mean? Inslee and Newsome are probably leading the most successful efforts in America. Cuomo is “doing” what he can, especially since Jared strangely defines national resources as not for states. And at a federal level, Dems have no power to make Trump and his gang of lower-primates do anything. I am certain that at the end of this Trump will declare victory, saying if nothing had been done millions would die and it was just x thousands. And his idiot followers will prove he was literally correct in saying he could kill someone on 5th Avenue and still keep his base... except he’s killing hundreds a day on 5th Avenue. Edit: for numbers, NY reports today that between 180-195 people a die have died at home, almost certainly of Coronavirus, but they are not swabbing dead people. So that is a small example of how under-counted the deaths are at this point. FWIW, I have a background in both viral immunology and I did clinical medicine, with well over 1,000 intubations and plenty of ICU time. This whole situation is right in my wheelhouse and the current administration has bungled it far beyond I could ever have believed when I started going "survival mode alert!" on friends and family in mid January. Really, most people didn't believe it, downplayed it, etc. etc. If you haven't studied it, you just don't recognize it and understand the horrifying scope. I get that. But our 2009 H1N1 response was "complete" (vaccine started, strategic stockpile opened, virus ID'd, neighbors warned and samples exchanged, etc.) It's here if you feel like checking out how this should've gone: www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-pandemic-timeline.htmlSo basically, I get that a lot of people dragged their feet. But Trump and MANY GOP elements and their media outlets went into full denial, misinformation, and blame/distract mode. The failure to test up front is BY FAR the most egregious error. Some Republicans like De Wine and Baker and many others at state levels have been great, but national leadership has failed everywhere except for Anthony Fauci. The science/medicine denial and lack of comprehension in this administration is truly, mind-bindingly staggering. Oh, and the "our death rate is low" argument. Totally spurious. It only looks that way because during geometric growth, as we had in late March, something like 90% of cases were from between March 17th and 30th. But it takes 2-3 weeks for people to die, or get better. So the denominator (cases) in case fatality rate is WAY too high using a quick and dirty calculation. Which is exactly why as our daily growth rate has slowed from 30+% to more like 12-15%, our mortality rate has risen from 1.5% to almost 3%...despite increased testing and identification of more cases overall, including mild ones. There is legitimately zero factual validity to his points, and the subjective part of it, imho, is garbage, made so by prefacing with an epithet. And yeah, while Trump's overall approval is down again by 6%, Andrew Cuomo's is up 27%. It's actually the do-nothing fed GOP that the polls say people are concerned about: navigatorresearch.org/public-opinion-on-coronavirus-navigator-daily-6/ Rightfully so. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2020 15:14:18 GMT -5
Just blows my mind how crazy this is for some of you, Democrats can do no wrong, Republicans are 100% the problem. Like omg that is crazy. Most of the hardest hit areas are Democrats states, who did half ass measures for weeks! Yet now we blame other states for doing the same thing! Our president wanted to shutdown the hardest hit areas because people were leaving and not staying inside, those Governor's said it would be declaring war on them! In Massachusetts we closed a few things, then kept most other things open for weeks! Heck a bunch of my friends that are plumbers are still working on new construction jobs. My hometown in Adams had to remove the Basketball rims because 40 plus people were playing last week. My wife and her co-workers had to form a walkout to get them to close the hair salon! This is an American issue, we value rights way too much right now and can't stop playing politics! I agree with your sentiment that trying to politicize the moment is counterproductive as we all need to be working together to help those vulnerable, flatten the curve to allow our healthcare workers a chance to breathe and make joint sacrifices to overcome this crisis. However, I want to know one thing..... You do realize that Governor Baker is a Republican right? I don't live in a MA, so I am not to knowledgeable about the state's response and won't comment. I however live in Maryland, another blue state with a Republican Governor who I may not have voted for but believe has done an admirable job facing this crisis. Yes I do, it's kinda the point a republican in control of a blue state. I mean Massachusetts has voted Democrats in every Presidential election I can remember. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2020 15:23:03 GMT -5
Just blows my mind how crazy this is for some of you, Democrats can do no wrong, Republicans are 100% the problem. Like omg that is crazy. Most of the hardest hit areas are Democrats states, who did half ass measures for weeks! Yet now we blame other states for doing the same thing! Our president wanted to shutdown the hardest hit areas because people were leaving and not staying inside, those Governor's said it would be declaring war on them! In Massachusetts we closed a few things, then kept most other things open for weeks! Heck a bunch of my friends that are plumbers are still working on new construction jobs. My hometown in Adams had to remove the Basketball rims because 40 plus people were playing last week. My wife and her co-workers had to form a walkout to get them to close the hair salon! This is an American issue, we value rights way too much right now and can't stop playing politics! While I agree on a larger scale. Few things: 1. California is doing impressively well. 2. Boston and NY are hotspots for international travel, same with Seattle. 3. Charlie Baker is republican. 4. The Louisiana governor says his state has the fastest growth rate (that was late March and can't tell if that's still true or not) But, I still agree that this is way more political than it should be. The primary problem are thick-headed people who can't grasp the situation or loser libertarians (sorry, this I will get political about) who are so frightened over state encroachment that they would rather people die than admit a temporary shutdown is the only way to deal with this crisis right now. I think Trump could have been better, I think the Democrats could have been better, I think Italy could have been better, and China absolutely should have been better. Everyone got it wrong and everyone is suffering for it. Exactly everyone could have done better, there is zero point in pointing fingers and acting like we did better. Let's band together and fight this, then we can start up the biggest comedy show in the world again known as the US Government. Yet we can't every Democratic Governor rips Trump daily and the Republicans are no better. It's gotten to the point where Congress along with the media might be the worst threat to this country ever! |
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Post by telson13 on Apr 6, 2020 15:23:24 GMT -5
I think this is the point. Death rate: Italy: 12.46% World: 5.55% USA: 2.94% So, we're ahead of the world in this regard. Here’s something I’ll grant: Italy was not a success story. But it is funny to go from #MAGA to “we’re not Italy!” Imagine you have 2000 people infected, like we did in mid-march. Your daily increase is about 30%, like we had in mid-late march. That means your cases double every 2.5 days. So between March 16 and March 31, you have 15 days. That's 6 increments of 2.5 days. So doubling every 2.5 days means 2x2x2x2x2x2=64. You have 64 times as many cases on the 31st as on the 16th. You now have 128,000 cases. It takes roughly 10 days in severe cases to die, and it can be 2-4 weeks if you're kept alive on a ventilator (for acute respiratory distress syndrome, mortality usually ranges from 25% for mild to 50% for severe; it's more like 75% for ventilated COVID patients. So, basically, the people dying on or before April 1 were from cases back on around March 21st or before. If 1000 people have died, it LOOKS like it's 1000/128,000, which is under 1%. Seems good. But the reality is that on March 20 you had closer to 2000 x2 x2 (the 21st is 5 days, or two doubling periods, after the 16th), or 8,000 cases. So a better estimate of your mortality is 1000/8000...looks like Italy now, right? 12.5% FWIW, this happened with SARS back in 2003. Mortality estimates were 4% early, 9.7% once it was over. You will see the US mortality rate rise into the 5-8% range in the next two weeks, provided our case growth rate continues slowing. It's doubling weekly now, which means that after it all, it might still be higher. I can't say for certain, we don't have comprehensive testing. But our mortality rate was 1.4% in late march when cases grew fastest, and as they've slowed we're approaching 3%. |
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Post by telson13 on Apr 6, 2020 15:29:26 GMT -5
I agree with your sentiment that trying to politicize the moment is counterproductive as we all need to be working together to help those vulnerable, flatten the curve to allow our healthcare workers a chance to breathe and make joint sacrifices to overcome this crisis. However, I want to know one thing..... You do realize that Governor Baker is a Republican right? I don't live in a MA, so I am not to knowledgeable about the state's response and won't comment. I however live in Maryland, another blue state with a Republican Governor who I may not have voted for but believe has done an admirable job facing this crisis. Yes I do, it's kinda the point a republican in control of a blue state. I mean Massachusetts has voted Democrats in every Presidential election I can remember. I voted both Weld (champion) and Baker, but I've voted presidential blue the past 5 or 6 elections. I would've voted HW Bush in '88 if I'd been old enough though. Might've gone McCain if he didn't pick a total nut in Palin. Wow, was that a huge mistake. MA response has been pretty good. HC workers are in rough shape though. Lots of horror stories from former colleagues. No gear, no prep, no protections, cut pay. Most are federal issues. Mike De Wine in Ohio is a R governor in a battleground state and he's been awesome. He was way out in front relative to his peers and the feds, tbh. Our government is behaving like this is a confederacy and not a federal republic. Talk about weak, ineffectual central govt. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2020 15:43:27 GMT -5
Yes I do, it's kinda the point a republican in control of a blue state. I mean Massachusetts has voted Democrats in every Presidential election I can remember. I voted both Weld (champion) and Baker, but I've voted presidential blue the past 5 or 6 elections. I would've voted HW Bush in '88 if I'd been old enough though. Might've gone McCain if he didn't pick a total nut in Palin. Wow, was that a huge mistake. MA response has been pretty good. HC workers are in rough shape though. Lots of horror stories from former colleagues. No gear, no prep, no protections, cut pay. Most are federal issues. Mike De Wine in Ohio is a R governor in a battleground state and he's been awesome. He was way out in front relative to his peers and the feds, tbh. Our government is behaving like this is a confederacy and not a federal republic. Talk about weak, ineffectual central govt. It's a world issue, every Country doesn't have enough year! Heck China didn't when this started getting help from many Countries including us and they make most of the stuff. The president closed travel from China and the Democrats went off on him, calling him all sorts of things. You can't have effective Government when both sides care more about politics than the people of this Country! |
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Post by manfred on Apr 6, 2020 15:51:24 GMT -5
I voted both Weld (champion) and Baker, but I've voted presidential blue the past 5 or 6 elections. I would've voted HW Bush in '88 if I'd been old enough though. Might've gone McCain if he didn't pick a total nut in Palin. Wow, was that a huge mistake. MA response has been pretty good. HC workers are in rough shape though. Lots of horror stories from former colleagues. No gear, no prep, no protections, cut pay. Most are federal issues. Mike De Wine in Ohio is a R governor in a battleground state and he's been awesome. He was way out in front relative to his peers and the feds, tbh. Our government is behaving like this is a confederacy and not a federal republic. Talk about weak, ineffectual central govt. It's a world issue, every Country doesn't have enough year! Heck China didn't when this started getting help from many Countries including us and they make most of the stuff. The president closed travel from China and the Democrats went off on him, calling him all sorts of things. You can't have effective Government when both sides care more about politics than the people of this Country! The both-sides-ism is tired. Democrats are imperfect, and Republicans are catastrophic. Of course, this is why Republicans hate democracy... the majority of Americans are on to them. They’ve won the popular vote once since 1992. They even admit if we went to a national mail ballot they’d be screwed. They maintain power mostly because our system makes the nothingness of South Dakota as important in the Senate as California. But it is pointless to talk about because Republicans are the party of Id... if it feels bad, it is fake. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 6, 2020 15:56:27 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2020 16:56:23 GMT -5
It's a world issue, every Country doesn't have enough year! Heck China didn't when this started getting help from many Countries including us and they make most of the stuff. The president closed travel from China and the Democrats went off on him, calling him all sorts of things. You can't have effective Government when both sides care more about politics than the people of this Country! The both-sides-ism is tired. Democrats are imperfect, and Republicans are catastrophic. Of course, this is why Republicans hate democracy... the majority of Americans are on to them. They’ve won the popular vote once since 1992. They even admit if we went to a national mail ballot they’d be screwed. They maintain power mostly because our system makes the nothingness of South Dakota as important in the Senate as California. But it is pointless to talk about because Republicans are the party of Id... if it feels bad, it is fake. WTF, South Dakota matter's, all states do! Last election take out California Trump won more states and way more votes. Democrats litterally win popular votes because of one state and that's crazy because my values don't equal those in California. So don't give me the majority of Americans are onto them! Truth is the majority of Americans don't support the crazy policies of California. Like seriously if California wants Socialism then half at it, just leave the rest of us alone! |
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Post by manfred on Apr 6, 2020 17:19:15 GMT -5
The both-sides-ism is tired. Democrats are imperfect, and Republicans are catastrophic. Of course, this is why Republicans hate democracy... the majority of Americans are on to them. They’ve won the popular vote once since 1992. They even admit if we went to a national mail ballot they’d be screwed. They maintain power mostly because our system makes the nothingness of South Dakota as important in the Senate as California. But it is pointless to talk about because Republicans are the party of Id... if it feels bad, it is fake. WTF, South Dakota matter's, all states do! Last election take out California Trump won more states and way more votes. Democrats litterally win popular votes because of one state and that's crazy because my values don't equal those in California. So don't give me the majority of Americans are onto them! Truth is the majority of Americans don't support the crazy policies of California. Like seriously if California wants Socialism then half at it, just leave the rest of us alone! SD has the population of Charlotte, NC. Yet it gets 2 Senators. Add up ND, SD, WY, ID, UT. and you have 10 Senators representing a population smaller than NY city. You are the one dismissing people by arguing that California is an exception. One person, one vote. |
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Post by sdiaz1 on Apr 6, 2020 17:25:28 GMT -5
The both-sides-ism is tired. Democrats are imperfect, and Republicans are catastrophic. Of course, this is why Republicans hate democracy... the majority of Americans are on to them. They’ve won the popular vote once since 1992. They even admit if we went to a national mail ballot they’d be screwed. They maintain power mostly because our system makes the nothingness of South Dakota as important in the Senate as California. But it is pointless to talk about because Republicans are the party of Id... if it feels bad, it is fake. WTF, South Dakota matter's, all states do! Last election take out California Trump won more states and way more votes. Democrats litterally win popular votes because of one state and that's crazy because my values don't equal those in California. So don't give me the majority of Americans are onto them! Truth is the majority of Americans don't support the crazy policies of California. Like seriously if California wants Socialism then half at it, just leave the rest of us alone! If you can't see how it is unreasonable for a state like South Dakota or Rhode Island to have the same amount of representation in the upper house of the Congress in relation to California or Texas then you have clearly deeply committed yourself to the irrational. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 6, 2020 18:20:13 GMT -5
The both-sides-ism is tired. Democrats are imperfect, and Republicans are catastrophic. Of course, this is why Republicans hate democracy... the majority of Americans are on to them. They’ve won the popular vote once since 1992. They even admit if we went to a national mail ballot they’d be screwed. They maintain power mostly because our system makes the nothingness of South Dakota as important in the Senate as California. But it is pointless to talk about because Republicans are the party of Id... if it feels bad, it is fake. WTF, South Dakota matter's, all states do! Last election take out California Trump won more states and way more votes. Democrats litterally win popular votes because of one state and that's crazy because my values don't equal those in California. So don't give me the majority of Americans are onto them! Truth is the majority of Americans don't support the crazy policies of California. Like seriously if California wants Socialism then half at it, just leave the rest of us alone! To be fair, California alone would be the world's 4th highest GDP. I never really understood the argument, "all the Democrats live in California". Ok? They're still Americans. Would it be better if they emigrated to Iowa, Alabama, et? Why are votes per square mile more important than votes overall? |
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Post by manfred on Apr 6, 2020 18:58:18 GMT -5
WTF, South Dakota matter's, all states do! Last election take out California Trump won more states and way more votes. Democrats litterally win popular votes because of one state and that's crazy because my values don't equal those in California. So don't give me the majority of Americans are onto them! Truth is the majority of Americans don't support the crazy policies of California. Like seriously if California wants Socialism then half at it, just leave the rest of us alone! To be fair, California alone would be the world's 4th highest GDP. I never really understood the argument, "all the Democrats live in California". Ok? They're still Americans. Would it be better if they emigrated to Iowa, Alabama, et? Why are votes per square mile more important than votes overall? And Johnny Reb should show a bit more gratitude to California and NY, amongst others, since the Confederacy is a bunch of welfare states, getting back more money from the Federal government than they put in per capita. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 6, 2020 19:19:34 GMT -5
I've got it on good authority that this whole mess started in a Chinese laundry while cleaning bed sheets for Trump Towers. When that news gets out, he's doomed. So now you make jokes and think this is funny? Fuck you And fuck anyone who supports this stupid fucking piece of shit. He has got blood on his hands and once again you all support him. Fuck you That's it I'm done. Have a nice day!!! Siafuckenarah!! |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 6, 2020 19:27:55 GMT -5
I've got it on good authority that this whole mess started in a Chinese laundry while cleaning bed sheets for Trump Towers. When that news gets out, he's doomed. So now you make jokes and think this is funny? Fuck you And fuck anyone who supports this stupid fucking piece of shit. He has got blood on his hands and once again you all support him. Fuck you That's it I'm done. Have a nice day!!! Siafuckenarah!!  |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2020 20:09:06 GMT -5
Every state gets two Senate seats, yet the House is by population.
North Dakota has three members of Congress, California has 55. What is the issue?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 6, 2020 20:18:11 GMT -5
" voice of reason ".
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2020 20:19:30 GMT -5
To be fair, California alone would be the world's 4th highest GDP. I never really understood the argument, "all the Democrats live in California". Ok? They're still Americans. Would it be better if they emigrated to Iowa, Alabama, et? Why are votes per square mile more important than votes overall? And Johnny Reb should show a bit more gratitude to California and NY, amongst others, since the Confederacy is a bunch of welfare states, getting back more money from the Federal government than they put in per capita. No California. |
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Post by manfred on Apr 6, 2020 20:29:48 GMT -5
I stand corrected. Johnny Reb can thank other states. I mistook from whom they are currently freeloading. I am sure California relies heavily on Mississippi. |
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