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Coronavirus thread tangent
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Post by manfred on Apr 7, 2020 10:29:46 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 7, 2020 10:34:45 GMT -5
First this isn’t a who’s worse argument for me. I sit in the middle - hate both parties. This is an acknowledgement that both parties are conveniently anti-science when it fits their agenda. Second, when I use terms like Democrat or Republican or any other general categorical term, I’m not suggesting this means every person who identifies this way. I’m going to agree with most if not all your Republican or right wing points but if you want to keep yelling them at me you can feel free to do so. We have Democrat’s that are open anti-Vaxers and others who push the narrative that GMOs are unhealthy. Democrats took down James Demore who wrote a well thought out statistically correct paper that was designed to acknowledge certain things as a way to get more women into things like computer sciences. But he was labeled a sexist because to a democrat we can’t talk about these things. Which leads me to.. Democrats reject the idea that we should ask questions and do any research about race or gender or any other social issue that could possibly bring to light that not everything is the same, even though this is science. And if you just went around the general public and looked into the people who believe in Astrology and fortune tellers etc you’ll find that the majority of those are democrats that think republicans who believe in God believe in make believe. One of the biggest lies being told to the American public right now is that $15/hour is a LIVING WAGE. I’ll stop here because I have work to do and I am pretty sure you won’t acknowledge any of this as being true. Edit: one more thing... I noticed you said something about it not being a PUSH... it’s not about it being a push or not. You can’t call yourself the party of science then pick and choose which science you want. Well you can but it shows how full of shit you are. I have literally never met a person who believes in fortune tellers. I’ve known many people who believe the Bible is literally true. More to the point: I’ve never heard of a politician consulting a fortune teller to make policy. There are daily examples of politicians imposing absurd religious views on us all. $15 as a living wage is, of course, regional. It is actually not bad where I live (depending on insurance, obviously). But that is not a scientific dispute. I am hard left on wages and health insurance, but I also cannot necessarily PROVE through data what I believe. I can SUPPORT it, but there remain legitimate other positions. So that, or Biden’s health care position (with which I disagree, and I supported Warren) are not the same as “disagreeing” with climate change. Whatever. To return to Coronavirus, I think it is fair to say that in the face of a crisis that requires a) real science and b) a concentrated Federal response, it seems like a no-brainer the Democrats would be the preferred party to take it on. Oh yeah because Nancy holding up the last bill wanting 100's of her pet projects included shows how perfect the Democrats are at handling this? Do you really want me to list the crap she held up a Coronavirus bill for? You really have blinders on if you think the Democrats are great and Republicans are horrible. They both suck! |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 7, 2020 10:39:41 GMT -5
Joe Biden is being accused of sexually assaulting a woman. Joe Biden threatened to withhold federal aid to Ukraine unless someone was fired and laughed about it. Joe Biden was shown hushing a woman before swearing at a voter and it wasn't the first time he's sworn at potential voters. Things that you accuse Trump of for being evil. Not to mention that Biden doesn't believe in medical care for all and has corporate lobbyists funding his campaign. Every single Democrat was up in arms over Brett Kavanaugh and the #metoo movement and Joe Biden's famous phrase, "believe all women", well, except her apparently. All of a sudden sexual assault allegations aren't that big of a deal or we need more proof. The new detailed allegations have been largely ignored by the mainstream liberal media. You know, people call Trump a "draft dodger", but honestly, if you had the chance to get out of Vietnam, wouldn't you take it? I know I'm personally not built for war, not physically, but mentally. That's why I'm not pro-war. I don't advocate for something I myself wouldn't willingly participate in. Now, I'm not denying that Trump hasn't been accused of sexual assault, hasn't been friends with Jeffrey Epstein (although Bill rode on his plane), didn't say, "grab them by the ***" and hasn't a litany of other vile complaint against him (mocking a disabled reporter). It's just Democrats have put themselves into a position of making voters choose between what they believe is an evil man and a creepy predator. None of Biden's supporters can offer any reason why Joe Biden would make for a great president without bringing up Trump. This is why Democrats will lose in November. I don't believe "Not Trump" is good enough to swing enough voters when Trump has the base that he has. The defense of draft dodging is dandy. You will, I hope, apply that abysmal character standard to all? Or will this be another it’s-ok-if-Republicans-do-it thing? In retrospect, Republicans should love Clinton, because none of his character issues matter anymore, and the economy was great. You have no idea with Ukraine. Americans overwhelmingly couldn’t find it on a map and suddenly sputter about Obama-era policies they otherwise couldn’t give a s—t about. Biden operated a) openly and b) in accordance with stated US foreign policy. Nothing he did mattered a lick until Trump acted improperly and possibly illegally, and then his defenders pulled the “what about...” card they do when he sinks to a new low. Oh, I'm just a cynical independent so I can hurl garbage at Republicans all day. Both sides annoy me. I used to be a libertarian, but now finding myself to be very left leaning. Clinton did ride out the .com bubble and some of his policies are what led to the housing and market collapse that finally came to fruition in 2008. Still, you can't excuse George Bush who was in office for 8 years and could change any policy he wanted and increased the deficit by waging 2 wars (one justifiable, the other indefensible). Clinton also had numerous opportunities to take out Bin Laden, but didn't. Again, it's concerning he rode on the "Lolita Express". Still, morality be damned anymore. I find that with Obama, he wasn't perfect either, but people really need to stretch to give reasons why they don't like him. I often find myself doing that only to realize I'm extremely nitpicking. The thing with Biden as VP and Ukraine. I don't see how what Trump supposedly did was different than what Biden transcribes here: www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/27/flashback_2018_joe_biden_brags_at_cfr_meeting_about_withholding_aid_to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.html |
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Post by manfred on Apr 7, 2020 10:44:48 GMT -5
The defense of draft dodging is dandy. You will, I hope, apply that abysmal character standard to all? Or will this be another it’s-ok-if-Republicans-do-it thing? In retrospect, Republicans should love Clinton, because none of his character issues matter anymore, and the economy was great. You have no idea with Ukraine. Americans overwhelmingly couldn’t find it on a map and suddenly sputter about Obama-era policies they otherwise couldn’t give a s—t about. Biden operated a) openly and b) in accordance with stated US foreign policy. Nothing he did mattered a lick until Trump acted improperly and possibly illegally, and then his defenders pulled the “what about...” card they do when he sinks to a new low. Oh, I'm just a cynical independent so I can hurl garbage at Republicans all day. Both sides annoy me. Clinton did ride out the .com bubble and some of his policies are what led to the housing and market collapse that finally came to fruition in 2008. Still, you can't excuse George Bush who was in office for 8 years and could change any policy he wanted and increased the deficit by waging 2 wars (one justifiable, the other indefensible). Clinton also had numerous opportunities to take out Bin Laden, but didn't. Again, it's concerning he rode on the "Lolita Express". Still, morality be damned anymore. I find that with Obama, he wasn't perfect either, but people really need to stretch to give reasons why they don't like him. I often find myself doing that only to realize I'm extremely nitpicking. The thing with Biden as VP and Ukraine. I don't see how what Trump supposedly did was different than what Biden transcribes here: www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/27/flashback_2018_joe_biden_brags_at_cfr_meeting_about_withholding_aid_to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.htmlThe difference is easy: our national policy was to combat Ukrainian corruption. Our foreign service (career, not political) viewed that prosecutor as not keeping with our goals. We pressured Ukraine to further our national goals. Trump wanted information on a baseless conspiracy theory. He pressured our political officers to get it, and fired a highly respected ambassador for not doing so, while also creating extra-governmental channels. He then pressured the Ukrainian government based not on national policy but personal reelection needs. Night and day. |
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Post by manfred on Apr 7, 2020 10:48:37 GMT -5
I have literally never met a person who believes in fortune tellers. I’ve known many people who believe the Bible is literally true. More to the point: I’ve never heard of a politician consulting a fortune teller to make policy. There are daily examples of politicians imposing absurd religious views on us all. $15 as a living wage is, of course, regional. It is actually not bad where I live (depending on insurance, obviously). But that is not a scientific dispute. I am hard left on wages and health insurance, but I also cannot necessarily PROVE through data what I believe. I can SUPPORT it, but there remain legitimate other positions. So that, or Biden’s health care position (with which I disagree, and I supported Warren) are not the same as “disagreeing” with climate change. Whatever. To return to Coronavirus, I think it is fair to say that in the face of a crisis that requires a) real science and b) a concentrated Federal response, it seems like a no-brainer the Democrats would be the preferred party to take it on. Oh yeah because Nancy holding up the last bill wanting 100's of her pet projects included shows how perfect the Democrats are at handling this? Do you really want me to list the crap she held up a Coronavirus bill for? You really have blinders on if you think the Democrats are great and Republicans are horrible. They both suck! I don’t think Democrats are “great” across the board. But I do think the gap between the two parties is so great that I am willing to live with the petty problems of the Dems until the GOP fever breaks. |
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Post by ortiz on Apr 7, 2020 10:49:52 GMT -5
Right. Of course, since we are already not doing better, I guess it is moot. By the way, we are already over 10,000 reported dead, with everyone acknowledging they are dramatically under-reporting. And... do-nothing Democrats? What does that even mean? Inslee and Newsome are probably leading the most successful efforts in America. Cuomo is “doing” what he can, especially since Jared strangely defines national resources as not for states. And at a federal level, Dems have no power to make Trump and his gang of lower-primates do anything. I am certain that at the end of this Trump will declare victory, saying if nothing had been done millions would die and it was just x thousands. And his idiot followers will prove he was literally correct in saying he could kill someone on 5th Avenue and still keep his base... except he’s killing hundreds a day on 5th Avenue. Edit: for numbers, NY reports today that between 180-195 people a die have died at home, almost certainly of Coronavirus, but they are not swabbing dead people. So that is a small example of how under-counted the deaths are at this point. FWIW, I have a background in both viral immunology and I did clinical medicine, with well over 1,000 intubations and plenty of ICU time. This whole situation is right in my wheelhouse and the current administration has bungled it far beyond I could ever have believed when I started going "survival mode alert!" on friends and family in mid January. Really, most people didn't believe it, downplayed it, etc. etc. If you haven't studied it, you just don't recognize it and understand the horrifying scope. I get that. But our 2009 H1N1 response was "complete" (vaccine started, strategic stockpile opened, virus ID'd, neighbors warned and samples exchanged, etc.) It's here if you feel like checking out how this should've gone: www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-pandemic-timeline.htmlSo basically, I get that a lot of people dragged their feet. But Trump and MANY GOP elements and their media outlets went into full denial, misinformation, and blame/distract mode. The failure to test up front is BY FAR the most egregious error. Some Republicans like De Wine and Baker and many others at state levels have been great, but national leadership has failed everywhere except for Anthony Fauci. The science/medicine denial and lack of comprehension in this administration is truly, mind-bindingly staggering. Oh, and the "our death rate is low" argument. Totally spurious. It only looks that way because during geometric growth, as we had in late March, something like 90% of cases were from between March 17th and 30th. But it takes 2-3 weeks for people to die, or get better. So the denominator (cases) in case fatality rate is WAY too high using a quick and dirty calculation. Which is exactly why as our daily growth rate has slowed from 30+% to more like 12-15%, our mortality rate has risen from 1.5% to almost 3%...despite increased testing and identification of more cases overall, including mild ones. There is legitimately zero factual validity to his points, and the subjective part of it, imho, is garbage, made so by prefacing with an epithet. And yeah, while Trump's overall approval is down again by 6%, Andrew Cuomo's is up 27%. It's actually the do-nothing fed GOP that the polls say people are concerned about: navigatorresearch.org/public-opinion-on-coronavirus-navigator-daily-6/ Rightfully so. Your post is eloquent and has facts with sources. Unfortunately just like in sports many people have become fans (remember this is short for fanatics) of their politicians. They are tone deaf (both sides). Remember when Trump said he could shoot someone and get away with it...we laughed. Having said that both sides do it, but right now Republicans take the cake. Denial is great. From a former republican who voted for McCain, Romney and two former republican governors running for the libertarian party. Too many Republicans have become fans. Many of us look the other way when our teams have players who are clearly jerks but they help us win. They are our jerks after all. This is exactly what is happening with Trump. Stop being a fan, think objectively and pick country over party. |
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Post by incandenza on Apr 7, 2020 10:52:11 GMT -5
“Both sides” ignore science etc. As if somehow it’s a push. “They are both bad, so...” It’s garbage. Democrats may err, but they do not ignore much less deplore science. Republicans, the party that features Creationists, Senators who bring snowballs to the Senate as “proof” climate change isn’t happening, and the party that calls diseases from AIDS to Coronavirus “God’s judgment”? They actively reject science. First this isn’t a who’s worse argument for me. I sit in the middle - hate both parties. This is an acknowledgement that both parties are conveniently anti-science when it fits their agenda. Second, when I use terms like Democrat or Republican or any other general categorical term, I’m not suggesting this means every person who identifies this way. I’m going to agree with most if not all your Republican or right wing points but if you want to keep yelling them at me you can feel free to do so. We have Democrat’s that are open anti-Vaxers and others who push the narrative that GMOs are unhealthy. Democrats took down James Demore who wrote a well thought out statistically correct paper that was designed to acknowledge certain things as a way to get more women into things like computer sciences. But he was labeled a sexist because to a democrat we can’t talk about these things. Which leads me to.. Democrats reject the idea that we should ask questions and do any research about race or gender or any other social issue that could possibly bring to light that not everything is the same, even though this is science. And if you just went around the general public and looked into the people who believe in Astrology and fortune tellers etc you’ll find that the majority of those are democrats that think republicans who believe in God believe in make believe. One of the biggest lies being told to the American public right now is that $15/hour is a LIVING WAGE. I’ll stop here because I have work to do and I am pretty sure you won’t acknowledge any of this as being true. Edit: one more thing... I noticed you said something about it not being a PUSH... it’s not about it being a push or not. You can’t call yourself the party of science then pick and choose which science you want. Well you can but it shows how full of shit you are. I am definitely critical of the Democratic Party for a number of reasons. But the examples you cite of Democrats being anti-science are just random individuals - sure, there are a few anti-Vaxxer and anti-GMO people who may identify as Democrats, and there's a certain sort of argument about gender roles that's not really theoretically well-founded that you will hear in liberal circles. (Also, if you're critical of race science skeptics, you should, uh, read up on the history of race "science.") But these are not the positions of any substantial number of elected officials. There are no Democrats making anti-Vax arguments on the floor of Congress. The mainstream position among elected Republicans, on the other hand, has been to deny climate science for the last several decades. They really do make that argument on the floor of Congress. All the time. You see the difference, right? I mean, I'm sure there are some serial killers who are registered Democrats and some who are registered Republicans, but it would be ridiculous to conclude "both parties are parties of serial killers, a pox on both their houses!" And then if you did want to judge both parties by the sum total of the views of all their members, it would have to be relevant that 55% of scientists are Democrats and only 6% are Republicans, no? Shouldn't that be an indication of which party is more "anti-science"? |
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Post by ortiz on Apr 7, 2020 10:56:49 GMT -5
Uhhh... please tell me this is not one of those “well, Trump’s not perfect, but who is” retorts. Biden, like, by the bye, Hillary, is flawed human being who has spent most of his life doing honest service for the country. Trump is a human dumpster fire who called avoiding syphilis his Vietnam, has been in legal trouble since the 70s, and is... Christ I could go on forever. Joe Biden is being accused of sexually assaulting a woman. Joe Biden threatened to withhold federal aid to Ukraine unless someone was fired and laughed about it. Joe Biden was shown hushing a woman before swearing at a voter and it wasn't the first time he's sworn at potential voters. Things that you accuse Trump of for being evil. Not to mention that Biden doesn't believe in medical care for all and has corporate lobbyists funding his campaign. Every single Democrat was up in arms over Brett Kavanaugh and the #metoo movement and Joe Biden's famous phrase, "believe all women", well, except her apparently. All of a sudden sexual assault allegations aren't that big of a deal or we need more proof. The new detailed allegations have been largely ignored by the mainstream liberal media. You know, people call Trump a "draft dodger", but honestly, if you had the chance to get out of Vietnam, wouldn't you take it? I know I'm personally not built for war, not physically, but mentally. That's why I'm not pro-war. I don't advocate for something I myself wouldn't willingly participate in. Now, I'm not denying that Trump hasn't been accused of sexual assault, hasn't been friends with Jeffrey Epstein (although Bill rode on his plane), didn't say, "grab them by the ***" and hasn't a litany of other vile complaint against him (mocking a disabled reporter). It's just Democrats have put themselves into a position of making voters choose between what they believe is an evil man and a creepy predator. None of Biden's supporters can offer any reason why Joe Biden would make for a great president without bringing up Trump. This is why Democrats will lose in November. I don't believe "Not Trump" is good enough to swing enough voters when Trump has the base that he has. Edited, because why bother. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 7, 2020 11:01:08 GMT -5
Oh, I'm just a cynical independent so I can hurl garbage at Republicans all day. Both sides annoy me. Clinton did ride out the .com bubble and some of his policies are what led to the housing and market collapse that finally came to fruition in 2008. Still, you can't excuse George Bush who was in office for 8 years and could change any policy he wanted and increased the deficit by waging 2 wars (one justifiable, the other indefensible). Clinton also had numerous opportunities to take out Bin Laden, but didn't. Again, it's concerning he rode on the "Lolita Express". Still, morality be damned anymore. I find that with Obama, he wasn't perfect either, but people really need to stretch to give reasons why they don't like him. I often find myself doing that only to realize I'm extremely nitpicking. The thing with Biden as VP and Ukraine. I don't see how what Trump supposedly did was different than what Biden transcribes here: www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/27/flashback_2018_joe_biden_brags_at_cfr_meeting_about_withholding_aid_to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.htmlThe difference is easy: our national policy was to combat Ukrainian corruption. Our foreign service (career, not political) viewed that prosecutor as not keeping with our goals. We pressured Ukraine to further our national goals. Trump wanted information on a baseless conspiracy theory. He pressured our political officers to get it, and fired a highly respected ambassador for not doing so, while also creating extra-governmental channels. He then pressured the Ukrainian government based not on national policy but personal reelection needs. Night and day. It also seems that what Biden said wasn't exactly truthful either in that 2015 clip. www.buzzfeednews.com/article/miriamelder/joe-biden-ukraine-hunter |
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 7, 2020 11:05:36 GMT -5
Once again their are facts and their are bogus conspiracy theories made up by the right to justify their own lies. Just like in the Ukraine. I once thought of you as intelligent, my bad. Are the Clintons also responsible for about 39 dead people? That one is high on the rights list. |
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Post by manfred on Apr 7, 2020 11:08:33 GMT -5
Whatever people want to say, all you have to do is look at the current numbers to see that Gavin Newsome has really led on all this. California has an incredibly low # of cases, cases per million, and an astonishing death per million (10!). Obviously it is early days, but comparing CA to a state like Georgia or Indiana is incredible. www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ |
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 7, 2020 11:09:30 GMT -5
You guys can quibble and fight about who’s worse than who.
I’m critical of all science skeptics. Truth is truth - feelings shouldn’t come into it. You singled out race science, being skeptical and flat out stopping studies are different things. Studying these things can be extremely useful. I criticize those who deny climate change. I do not criticize those who question the exact impacts and practical solutions. I criticize those who change and misrepresent studies on climate change the most because they do more damage than those who flat out deny it.
You’ll have a Democrat making anti-vax arguments on the House Floor when RFK Jr is elected.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 7, 2020 11:10:32 GMT -5
Once again their are facts and their are bogus conspiracy theories made up by the right to justify their own lies. Just like in the Ukraine. I once thought of you as intelligent, my bad. Are the Clintons also responsible for about 39 dead people? That one is high on the rights list. Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself. tongue-in-cheek comment. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 7, 2020 11:28:09 GMT -5
Notice how nobody even tries to defend Trump they just deflect. Oh this or that, the man is indefensible period. All you have are stupid conspiracy theories. As if Fox and Trump and the rest of you weren't playing this whole thing down just a few weeks ago. Nope the words that came out of their mouths never happened, it's a democratic hoax again. Meanwhile the death toll in NY has exceeded 5,500 in just over 3 weeks. But it is Obamas fault or or Hillary did it, maybe it was Elmer Fudd who didn't do anything for 8 weeks but lie and worry about getting reelected. I know... lets hold a rally and call the dems names.... people with brains have finally realized they were wrong but some of you will go down with the ship. You have all been conned and you are his stooges.
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Post by manfred on Apr 7, 2020 11:35:16 GMT -5
Notice how nobody even tries to defend Trump they just deflect. Oh this or that, the man is indefensible period. All you have are stupid conspiracy theories. As if Fox and Trump and the rest of you weren't playing this whole thing down just a few weeks ago. Nope the words that came out of their mouths never happened, it's a democratic hoax again. Meanwhile the death toll in NY has exceeded 5,500 in just over 3 weeks. But it is Obamas fault or or Hillary did it, maybe it was Elmer Fudd who didn't do anything for 8 weeks but lie and worry about getting reelected. I know... lets hold a rally and call the dems names.... people with brains have finally realized they were wrong but some of you will go down with the ship. You have all been conned and you are his stooges. Unfortunately it looks like we all may go down with the ship. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 7, 2020 11:38:25 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 7, 2020 11:39:42 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaydouble on Apr 7, 2020 11:43:22 GMT -5
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Post by incandenza on Apr 7, 2020 11:48:22 GMT -5
You guys can quibble and fight about who’s worse than who. I’m critical of all science skeptics. Truth is truth - feelings shouldn’t come into it. You singled out race science, being skeptical and flat out stopping studies are different things. Studying these things can be extremely useful. I criticize those who deny climate change. I do not criticize those who question the exact impacts and practical solutions. I criticize those who change and misrepresent studies on climate change the most because they do more damage than those who flat out deny it. You’ll have a Democrat making anti-vax arguments on the House Floor when RFK Jr is elected. This is true - if an anti-vaxxer who is not an elected official were actually an elected Democratic official, then there would be an elected Democratic official who is an anti-vaxxer! |
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 7, 2020 12:04:41 GMT -5
Preach manfred !!!  |
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Post by incandenza on Apr 7, 2020 12:09:36 GMT -5
Meanwhile, on the wonder drug front: |
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Post by manfred on Apr 7, 2020 12:10:36 GMT -5
Not all his fault. Another straw man to deflect. But look at the numbers in Georgia and Florida, and watch their deaths pile up. Is it partly because obesity numbers in the South are obscene? Perhaps. Pot? Not there (though, again, the potheads of Cali are doing great). Maybe it’s because DeSantis is a grade-A moron? Or because Kemp is overriding local officials to keep beaches open (why in early April? God knows). Polls may not matter in six months when large swathes of Trump’s base gave committed collective suicide at their GA and FLA beaches or their Louisiana megachurches. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 7, 2020 12:20:28 GMT -5
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Post by manfred on Apr 7, 2020 13:06:12 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 7, 2020 16:05:11 GMT -5
You guys can quibble and fight about who’s worse than who. I’m critical of all science skeptics. Truth is truth - feelings shouldn’t come into it. You singled out race science, being skeptical and flat out stopping studies are different things. Studying these things can be extremely useful. I criticize those who deny climate change. I do not criticize those who question the exact impacts and practical solutions. I criticize those who change and misrepresent studies on climate change the most because they do more damage than those who flat out deny it. You’ll have a Democrat making anti-vax arguments on the House Floor when RFK Jr is elected. This is true - if an anti-vaxxer who is not an elected official were actually an elected Democratic official, then there would be an elected Democratic official who is an anti-vaxxer! Correction: I had the wrong Kennedy. There’s too many of those bastards. Anyways, carry on and ignore the RFK comment. |
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