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Coronavirus thread tangent
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 9, 2020 5:03:53 GMT -5
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 9, 2020 10:09:39 GMT -5
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Post by incandenza on Apr 9, 2020 10:50:30 GMT -5
So the question stands, for anyone who wants to defend the job the president is doing. One day! One day of insanity, this is. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 9, 2020 11:14:59 GMT -5
So the question stands, for anyone who wants to defend the job the president is doing. One day! One day of insanity, this is. I’m no fan of the President and I’ll criticize the job he’s done. I do want to point out that the WHO was a disaster on this thing from the jump. They came around faster than Trump but they screwed the pooch on this early on. |
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Post by manfred on Apr 9, 2020 11:21:25 GMT -5
So the question stands, for anyone who wants to defend the job the president is doing. One day! One day of insanity, this is. I’m no fan of the President and I’ll criticize the job he’s done. I do want to point out that the WHO was a disaster on this thing from the jump. They came around faster than Trump but they screwed the pooch on this early on. I am going to say one thing that is aaaaaalllmost a defense of the Orange one. As with other natural disasters, even a “good” job is still bad in the sense that no one can prevent a certain level of human misery. But... as with Katrina, we see failures that have exacerbated that misery. Worse, though, I think in the face of inevitable misery, the most a President can do is be a unifier and a morale booster. This guy is more fixated on his own ratings and polls. No President in my lifetime — even Nixon — has less basic human decency. And — while people like to play the “imagine if Obama...” game, but what is sadder is if, say, Reagan or Bush I had shown so little decency and or character, there would be bipartisan revulsion. Now, Republicans just shrug it off. |
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Post by incandenza on Apr 9, 2020 11:28:13 GMT -5
So the question stands, for anyone who wants to defend the job the president is doing. One day! One day of insanity, this is. I’m no fan of the President and I’ll criticize the job he’s done. I do want to point out that the WHO was a disaster on this thing from the jump. They came around faster than Trump but they screwed the pooch on this early on. I don't disagree with you there. But placing a hold on WHO funding in the middle of a pandemic is an absolutely bonkers way to respond to that failure. |
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Post by swingingbunt on Apr 9, 2020 12:15:18 GMT -5
I’m no fan of the President and I’ll criticize the job he’s done. I do want to point out that the WHO was a disaster on this thing from the jump. They came around faster than Trump but they screwed the pooch on this early on. I don't disagree with you there. But placing a hold on WHO funding in the middle of a pandemic is an absolutely bonkers way to respond to that failure. It's like the Fire Department refusing to help out out a fire because "they should have known that curling iron would do that". Put the fire out, deal with everything else later. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 9, 2020 12:20:16 GMT -5
I’m no fan of the President and I’ll criticize the job he’s done. I do want to point out that the WHO was a disaster on this thing from the jump. They came around faster than Trump but they screwed the pooch on this early on. I am going to say one thing that is aaaaaalllmost a defense of the Orange one. As with other natural disasters, even a “good” job is still bad in the sense that no one can prevent a certain level of human misery. But... as with Katrina, we see failures that have exacerbated that misery. Worse, though, I think in the face of inevitable misery, the most a President can do is be a unifier and a morale booster. This guy is more fixated on his own ratings and polls. No President in my lifetime — even Nixon — has less basic human decency. And — while people like to play the “imagine if Obama...” game, but what is sadder is if, say, Reagan or Bush I had shown so little decency and or character, there would be bipartisan revulsion. Now, Republicans just shrug it off. They shrug it off because they’ve been called bigots, sexists and racists for years and years and know that won’t change. Democrats called John McCain all sorts of vile things when he was running same with Romney etc. It’s not the right reaction but there’s only so long they can sit by and listen to everyone and their mother called that stuff before they tune it out. |
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Post by manfred on Apr 9, 2020 12:33:13 GMT -5
I am going to say one thing that is aaaaaalllmost a defense of the Orange one. As with other natural disasters, even a “good” job is still bad in the sense that no one can prevent a certain level of human misery. But... as with Katrina, we see failures that have exacerbated that misery. Worse, though, I think in the face of inevitable misery, the most a President can do is be a unifier and a morale booster. This guy is more fixated on his own ratings and polls. No President in my lifetime — even Nixon — has less basic human decency. And — while people like to play the “imagine if Obama...” game, but what is sadder is if, say, Reagan or Bush I had shown so little decency and or character, there would be bipartisan revulsion. Now, Republicans just shrug it off. They shrug it off because they’ve been called bigots, sexists and racists for years and years and know that won’t change. Democrats called John McCain all sorts of vile things when he was running same with Romney etc. It’s not the right reaction but there’s only so long they can sit by and listen to everyone and their mother called that stuff before they tune it out. I worked for John McCain. I can tell you this: the worst he was ever treated was in 1999 in SC by Republicans. Not even close. |
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Post by incandenza on Apr 9, 2020 12:35:14 GMT -5
I am going to say one thing that is aaaaaalllmost a defense of the Orange one. As with other natural disasters, even a “good” job is still bad in the sense that no one can prevent a certain level of human misery. But... as with Katrina, we see failures that have exacerbated that misery. Worse, though, I think in the face of inevitable misery, the most a President can do is be a unifier and a morale booster. This guy is more fixated on his own ratings and polls. No President in my lifetime — even Nixon — has less basic human decency. And — while people like to play the “imagine if Obama...” game, but what is sadder is if, say, Reagan or Bush I had shown so little decency and or character, there would be bipartisan revulsion. Now, Republicans just shrug it off. They shrug it off because they’ve been called bigots, sexists and racists for years and years and know that won’t change. Democrats called John McCain all sorts of vile things when he was running same with Romney etc. It’s not the right reaction but there’s only so long they can sit by and listen to everyone and their mother called that stuff before they tune it out. "You're gonna call me a racist regardless of what I do? Well I might as well be a racist then." This is such perverse logic. I realize you're explicitly not defending this, so I'm not directing it at you. But it goes to something I was saying above, about how conservative psychology seems so dominated by the feelings of others. Like, who cares what liberals think or say about you? Do what's right. What if minorities in this country - blacks or hispanics or gays or muslims - responded to the decades (or centuries) of abuse and oppression they've lived under by saying "Well if they're gonna say mean things about me I might as well have no personal moral standards whatsoever." |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 9, 2020 12:35:48 GMT -5
If Biden's supporters main approach continues to be "he isn't Trump", Trump will take at least 35 states, likely more. That's not much of a sales pitch.
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Post by manfred on Apr 9, 2020 12:38:33 GMT -5
If Biden's supporters main approach continues to be "he isn't Trump", Trump will take at least 35 states, likely more. That's not much of a sales pitch. And yet he is ahead in polls. I would actually say “I’m not him” will work. He should follow William McKinley’s “front porch” strategy. Trump has the worst polls in presidential history for a first-term. Let’s see if he can get 50% for the first time ever. Edit: and I say this objectively as someone who pays close attention to campaigns. This will be a referendum. So the question is really can you turn (or turn back) the few states that Trump won that flip back and forth. Who doubts that Biden has a good shot in PA, MI, a few other spots... if voting is normal? |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 9, 2020 12:44:01 GMT -5
Am I the only one who is beginning to look like a throwback hippy ?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 9, 2020 13:05:44 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaydouble on Apr 9, 2020 14:04:10 GMT -5
I am going to say one thing that is aaaaaalllmost a defense of the Orange one. As with other natural disasters, even a “good” job is still bad in the sense that no one can prevent a certain level of human misery. But... as with Katrina, we see failures that have exacerbated that misery. Worse, though, I think in the face of inevitable misery, the most a President can do is be a unifier and a morale booster. This guy is more fixated on his own ratings and polls. No President in my lifetime — even Nixon — has less basic human decency. And — while people like to play the “imagine if Obama...” game, but what is sadder is if, say, Reagan or Bush I had shown so little decency and or character, there would be bipartisan revulsion. Now, Republicans just shrug it off. They shrug it off because they’ve been called bigots, sexists and racists for years and years and know that won’t change. Democrats called John McCain all sorts of vile things when he was running same with Romney etc. It’s not the right reaction but there’s only so long they can sit by and listen to everyone and their mother called that stuff before they tune it out. I actually agree with this. The young left wing (who I pretty much agree with on policy issues) can be really, really nasty and dismissive in a way that's counterproductive. That's not an excuse for the behavior of the right, of course, but the petulance of many members of the far left already probably scared lots of people away from Sanders, and it will continue to turn off moderates who could otherwise be persuaded to get on board. |
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Post by manfred on Apr 9, 2020 14:20:23 GMT -5
They shrug it off because they’ve been called bigots, sexists and racists for years and years and know that won’t change. Democrats called John McCain all sorts of vile things when he was running same with Romney etc. It’s not the right reaction but there’s only so long they can sit by and listen to everyone and their mother called that stuff before they tune it out. I actually agree with this. The young left wing (who I pretty much agree with on policy issues) can be really, really nasty and dismissive in a way that's counterproductive. That's not an excuse for the behavior of the right, of course, but the petulance of many members of the far left already probably scared lots of people away from Sanders, and it will continue to turn off moderates who could otherwise be persuaded to get on board. I am of two minds: I did not like Bernie or his supporters, even though I am far left. But many on the right get called racist and sexist because they are. And some more get caught up in that because they do not police themselves. When, for example, the WA state legislative Republicans won’t kick out Matt Shea, they become complicit in his insanity. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 9, 2020 14:51:19 GMT -5
That sounds like a state issue, in Massachusetts they did just that. Had Americans come back from China and be put into qurantine. It's amazing with a Republican Governor isn't it? But you credited Trump. I actually just consulted someone at the State department who said quarantining returning Americans is not happening. So... huh. It was a smart play by Trump. So yeah he gets credit. This is what's wrong with full on Democrats you don't want to give him one inch, zero wins no matter what he does. What you don't understand is that just galvanizes his base. He gives you more than enough to criticize, so I don't get that strategy. It allows him to claim everything is fake because the Democrats have pushed a bunch of fact narratives. Massachusetts did just that we had many articles of people coming back from China being put into qurantine. If other states aren't following orders from the White House that's on them! This is what I'm talking about by playing politics. It's not a surprise that a Republican Governor did what he ordered. The Democrats attacked the move, so I'm sure they likely didn't listen. If States don't listen that's on them, not the President. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 9, 2020 15:00:19 GMT -5
I actually agree with this. The young left wing (who I pretty much agree with on policy issues) can be really, really nasty and dismissive in a way that's counterproductive. That's not an excuse for the behavior of the right, of course, but the petulance of many members of the far left already probably scared lots of people away from Sanders, and it will continue to turn off moderates who could otherwise be persuaded to get on board. I am of two minds: I did not like Bernie or his supporters, even though I am far left. But many on the right get called racist and sexist because they are. And some more get caught up in that because they do not police themselves. When, for example, the WA state legislative Republicans won’t kick out Matt Shea, they become complicit in his insanity. Kinda like New York not buying Ventilators a report said they needed, yet paying to send undocumented people to college? Setting up a program to give them drivers licenses? Or the article after article being pushed by the Democrats like it's a crime undocumented workers aren't getting a stimulus check? The majority of Americans are in the middle of both parties. Which is why we flip back and forth. Even Red States aren't just filled with 100% full on republicans. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 9, 2020 15:13:17 GMT -5
If Biden's supporters main approach continues to be "he isn't Trump", Trump will take at least 35 states, likely more. That's not much of a sales pitch. And yet he is ahead in polls. I would actually say “I’m not him” will work. He should follow William McKinley’s “front porch” strategy. Trump has the worst polls in presidential history for a first-term. Let’s see if he can get 50% for the first time ever. Edit: and I say this objectively as someone who pays close attention to campaigns. This will be a referendum. So the question is really can you turn (or turn back) the few states that Trump won that flip back and forth. Who doubts that Biden has a good shot in PA, MI, a few other spots... if voting is normal? The same poll that's said Clinton was going to easily win? You're a die-hard Democrat, do you really like that choice? I liked a few of the younger Democrats, but of course they had to pick the older same old type guy. |
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 9, 2020 16:52:45 GMT -5
What is lost in lot of this political discussion is how this president is setting precedents by eroding the system of checks and balances that has helped this constitution survive. I will tell the young guys out here, I hope your paying attention to that. I will be out of the rat race soon enough and if you got decades left, you should be very concerned. You can say there has been too much oversight, but the point is that is a critical component of our functioning democracy. I hope that is on your radar when you are considering your vote.
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Post by manfred on Apr 9, 2020 17:31:02 GMT -5
But you credited Trump. I actually just consulted someone at the State department who said quarantining returning Americans is not happening. So... huh. It was a smart play by Trump. So yeah he gets credit. This is what's wrong with full on Democrats you don't want to give him one inch, zero wins no matter what he does. What you don't understand is that just galvanizes his base. He gives you more than enough to criticize, so I don't get that strategy. It allows him to claim everything is fake because the Democrats have pushed a bunch of fact narratives. Massachusetts did just that we had many articles of people coming back from China being put into qurantine. If other states aren't following orders from the White House that's on them! This is what I'm talking about by playing politics. It's not a surprise that a Republican Governor did what he ordered. The Democrats attacked the move, so I'm sure they likely didn't listen. If States don't listen that's on them, not the President. A few things: again, that was not an “order” from the WH. More to the point, it now turns out most of our cases came from Europe. So.... I’m not saying I’m against a ban. It actually doesn’t matter, is the point. You can argue it is not all DJT’s fault, and, hell, I’ll give you that. But arguing that his China blockade was a “win” is a gross oversimplification, because, a) that “blockade” was partial, and b) it still left the front door open. |
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Post by manfred on Apr 9, 2020 17:36:20 GMT -5
And yet he is ahead in polls. I would actually say “I’m not him” will work. He should follow William McKinley’s “front porch” strategy. Trump has the worst polls in presidential history for a first-term. Let’s see if he can get 50% for the first time ever. Edit: and I say this objectively as someone who pays close attention to campaigns. This will be a referendum. So the question is really can you turn (or turn back) the few states that Trump won that flip back and forth. Who doubts that Biden has a good shot in PA, MI, a few other spots... if voting is normal? The same poll that's said Clinton was going to easily win? You're a die-hard Democrat, do you really like that choice? I liked a few of the younger Democrats, but of course they had to pick the older same old type guy. I liked Hillary. She was the most qualified candidate of my lifetime. She was a very effective Senator, and she was a very good Sec of State. She is incredibly smart, and she would have had a strong organization. I have never been a Biden guy. But he gets governing. Here is one of the things to me: if my pipes are leaky, I hire a plumber, not a clown. Given the choice of plumbers, I choose the most experienced one. Why people think anyone can be a politician... especially President.. is beyond me. We have a guy who is simply neither smart enough nor temperamentally suited to be President. I’d take almost any seasoned professional. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 9, 2020 18:24:45 GMT -5
They shrug it off because they’ve been called bigots, sexists and racists for years and years and know that won’t change. Democrats called John McCain all sorts of vile things when he was running same with Romney etc. It’s not the right reaction but there’s only so long they can sit by and listen to everyone and their mother called that stuff before they tune it out. "You're gonna call me a racist regardless of what I do? Well I might as well be a racist then." This is such perverse logic. I realize you're explicitly not defending this, so I'm not directing it at you. But it goes to something I was saying above, about how conservative psychology seems so dominated by the feelings of others. Like, who cares what liberals think or say about you? Do what's right. What if minorities in this country - blacks or hispanics or gays or muslims - responded to the decades (or centuries) of abuse and oppression they've lived under by saying "Well if they're gonna say mean things about me I might as well have no personal moral standards whatsoever." It is perverse logic when you put it that way but it’s not how the situation is in reality. They don’t care about what liberals think but they tune them out. If someone starts criticizing you and assigning a negative motivation to your position on a particular issue then you tune them out and you tune out the criticism they have of others and legitimate claims get lost in the noise. Like the boy who cried wolf. And to say Republicans have no moral standards is the exact kind of thing that reinforces the above. |
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Post by manfred on Apr 9, 2020 19:13:44 GMT -5
"You're gonna call me a racist regardless of what I do? Well I might as well be a racist then." This is such perverse logic. I realize you're explicitly not defending this, so I'm not directing it at you. But it goes to something I was saying above, about how conservative psychology seems so dominated by the feelings of others. Like, who cares what liberals think or say about you? Do what's right. What if minorities in this country - blacks or hispanics or gays or muslims - responded to the decades (or centuries) of abuse and oppression they've lived under by saying "Well if they're gonna say mean things about me I might as well have no personal moral standards whatsoever." It is perverse logic when you put it that way but it’s not how the situation is in reality. They don’t care about what liberals think but they tune them out. If someone starts criticizing you and assigning a negative motivation to your position on a particular issue then you tune them out and you tune out the criticism they have of others and legitimate claims get lost in the noise. Like the boy who cried wolf. And to say Republicans have no moral standards is the exact kind of thing that reinforces the above. How about Trump voters have no moral standards? If you reject that, then reconcile those standards with voting for him. Because I know hard core righties who didn’t vote for Trump and did not and would never vote for Clinton. That seems to be someone with a standard. And let me quibble with assigning motivation. Yes, that happens, and often it is wrong. But... there are many instances of people supporting policies that are racist or sexist but not precisely FOR that reason. It is only slightly better. This goes back to the question of principle. Is it ok to vote for a racist because you share (non-racist) tax policies? I’d say no. Is it ok to support a policy like stop-and-frisk that is racist but not for racist reasons? I’d say no. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 9, 2020 19:17:07 GMT -5
Question. Since it's established that I'm a Trump supporter and therefore a racist. Who's going to tell my brown wife and tan children ? The news is going to be devastating to them.
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