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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 21, 2020 13:45:46 GMT -5
Was Kemba's playoff performance more health or the defense the Raptors/Heat played?
Kemba looked damn good against the Sixers, his issues were when he ran into two of the better defensive teams in the league. He lost his ability to easily drive and finish. He doesn't finish well against contact and in the playoffs you don't get as many fouls unless your physical. That just threw his whole game off, just like when Tatum can't finish at the rim. I don't see that getting better unless he adds muscle and takes some lessons on drawing fouls. Walker is crazy skilled, yet he's not close to as jacked as Thomas was and it shows in the paint in the playoffs.
That's not going away, all good teams limit easy buckets at the rim in the playoffs and Kemba needs those buckets. Maybe that's what you work on with him, being good without that. Learning to play for the 3 point shot and mid range game. Add more motion offense, so he's driving to pass like the Heat.
It's just going to be hard because he has to be elite scoring to be worth playing in the playoffs given his D. A lot of those Bam dunks were on Walker not Theis. They'd drive, Theis would cut that off and they then got Walker on Bam, easy pass and easy dunk.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 21, 2020 14:43:19 GMT -5
This crazy long draft process has kinda messed with me. I've watched more tape than ever and I started to focus too much on a few players weaknesses and not what they do well. I forgot my #1 rule, it's what they'll be in five years not what they are now.
I've been circling back to the first guys I looked at because it's been months and months. I watched more tape on Daniel Oturu than anyone not named Cole Anthony. I forgot why he was one of the first guys I watched and really just started focusing on his weaknesses. Watching the Tillman tape when he gave Oturu issues just helped cement that. Yet I don't think that's fair, Tillman is one of the better defenders in the draft, crazy strong and NBA ready.
Oturu is likely the most skilled scoring center in the draft. He has advanced post moves, has a very quick first step for a center, has a pull up jumper and legit 3 point range with good form. Reminds me of LaMarcus Aldridge. He's very fluid with the ball. He's also a very good rebounder and shot blocker with very good legit center size.
The negatives he's not very physical. Using skill and size to score down low. Unlike guys like Stewart and Carey who use strength to bully guys. He can and will get stronger and frankly won't be doing a ton of post ups in the NBA. His athletic ability is all over the place on tape. I will chalk that up to him getting tired being the offensive and defensive anchor for his team in a way few bigs were in College. Athletic testing should show he's a good not great athlete. He needs to work on his passing.
There's just a lot there to work with. You want a big who can score for the bench, rebound, block shots and play defense so he's not Kanter, Oturu is a darn good choice. He's more skilled than Stewart and Carey, has a better more NBA ready body than Zeke and has the best combo of skill, size and d of those guys. He just needs to be a hard worker because like all bigs he still has a ton to work on. Given today's NBA you can't take centers high unless they are athletic freaks. Yet at pick 26 or 30 that seems like a very good gamble. It just depends if you value post scoring and want to take the time to develop him. I've been leaning towards guys like Robert Woodard, your new age small ball centers. The whole NBA has, it's why most centers are going late first, early second. Yet that also creates value with those guys and Oturu already has a jump shot. I will say I might be off though, I've always valued post scoring. I greatly enjoyed watch Kanter play, it was a thing of beauty. Which is another reason I've backed off Oturu. Danny has never really went after guys like him.
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 21, 2020 15:42:52 GMT -5
Was Kemba's playoff performance more health or the defense the Raptors/Heat played? Kemba looked damn good against the Sixers, his issues were when he ran into two of the better defensive teams in the league. He lost his ability to easily drive and finish. He doesn't finish well against contact and in the playoffs you don't get as many fouls unless your physical. That just threw his whole game off, just like when Tatum can't finish at the rim. I don't see that getting better unless he adds muscle and takes some lessons on drawing fouls. Walker is crazy skilled, yet he's not close to as jacked as Thomas was and it shows in the paint in the playoffs. That's not going away, all good teams limit easy buckets at the rim in the playoffs and Kemba needs those buckets. Maybe that's what you work on with him, being good without that. Learning to play for the 3 point shot and mid range game. Add more motion offense, so he's driving to pass like the Heat. It's just going to be hard because he has to be elite scoring to be worth playing in the playoffs given his D. A lot of those Bam dunks were on Walker not Theis. They'd drive, Theis would cut that off and they then got Walker on Bam, easy pass and easy dunk. Outside of Game 1 Kemba was pretty good offensively against Miami. In the future, if Toronto is going to play a box 1 on Kemba then Tatum and Brown should be unstoppable so that should work in our favor. I don’t know we will see next year but I’m not writing him off just yet. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 21, 2020 15:45:09 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 21, 2020 15:50:11 GMT -5
Nice to think about - defensively Simmons, Smart Brown and Tatum would be a terror... |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 21, 2020 16:09:23 GMT -5
Was Kemba's playoff performance more health or the defense the Raptors/Heat played? Kemba looked damn good against the Sixers, his issues were when he ran into two of the better defensive teams in the league. He lost his ability to easily drive and finish. He doesn't finish well against contact and in the playoffs you don't get as many fouls unless your physical. That just threw his whole game off, just like when Tatum can't finish at the rim. I don't see that getting better unless he adds muscle and takes some lessons on drawing fouls. Walker is crazy skilled, yet he's not close to as jacked as Thomas was and it shows in the paint in the playoffs. That's not going away, all good teams limit easy buckets at the rim in the playoffs and Kemba needs those buckets. Maybe that's what you work on with him, being good without that. Learning to play for the 3 point shot and mid range game. Add more motion offense, so he's driving to pass like the Heat. It's just going to be hard because he has to be elite scoring to be worth playing in the playoffs given his D. A lot of those Bam dunks were on Walker not Theis. They'd drive, Theis would cut that off and they then got Walker on Bam, easy pass and easy dunk. Outside of Game 1 Kemba was pretty good offensively against Miami. In the future, if Toronto is going to play a box 1 on Kemba then Tatum and Brown should be unstoppable so that should work in our favor. I don’t know we will see next year but I’m not writing him off just yet. I'm not writing him off, yet pretty good doesn't work given his D. He had offensive rating of 110 and defensive rating of 118 in that series. The 118 was easily the worst on the team and drags down all the other players. That's the problem with him, he needs to be crazy good on offense to offset his D. If he was good on D, there wouldn't have been an issue in that Heat series. Regular season he was 116 and 110, take out the games he was injured and it was even better on offense. Another thing that stands out is Theis, Kanter and even Robert Williams in limited minutes all had crazy high offensive ratings 134, 134, and 150. Hayward had 105 and Grant Williams had a 91. Small ball crap didn't help our offense, it hurt it. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 21, 2020 16:17:56 GMT -5
Nice to think about - defensively Simmons, Smart Brown and Tatum would be a terror... It's a pipedream, yet one of the more realistic ones I've seen. Even Danny would have to trade Walker if it meant getting Simmons. Walker fits next to Embiid. It will never happen yet it was nice to see a more realistic type idea compared to some of the crap I won't even post because it's just that bad. |
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Post by philarhody on Oct 21, 2020 19:45:06 GMT -5
That’s not nearly enough going to Philly. Throw in a couple pick swaps to Philly and maybe that’s a fair deal.
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Post by philarhody on Oct 21, 2020 19:46:42 GMT -5
Was Kemba's playoff performance more health or the defense the Raptors/Heat played? Kemba looked damn good against the Sixers, his issues were when he ran into two of the better defensive teams in the league. He lost his ability to easily drive and finish. He doesn't finish well against contact and in the playoffs you don't get as many fouls unless your physical. That just threw his whole game off, just like when Tatum can't finish at the rim. I don't see that getting better unless he adds muscle and takes some lessons on drawing fouls. Walker is crazy skilled, yet he's not close to as jacked as Thomas was and it shows in the paint in the playoffs. That's not going away, all good teams limit easy buckets at the rim in the playoffs and Kemba needs those buckets. Maybe that's what you work on with him, being good without that. Learning to play for the 3 point shot and mid range game. Add more motion offense, so he's driving to pass like the Heat. It's just going to be hard because he has to be elite scoring to be worth playing in the playoffs given his D. A lot of those Bam dunks were on Walker not Theis. They'd drive, Theis would cut that off and they then got Walker on Bam, easy pass and easy dunk. Outside of Game 1 Kemba was pretty good offensively against Miami. In the future, if Toronto is going to play a box 1 on Kemba then Tatum and Brown should be unstoppable so that should work in our favor. I don’t know we will see next year but I’m not writing him off just yet. The problem is if Kemba himself is not effective against the box and one or a two three. If he can’t make you pay on offense, you can’t play him. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 21, 2020 20:53:46 GMT -5
Never happening ever, but I'm going to go on a limb and say that Smart, Simmons, Brown, Tatum and Turner would be the best defense in the history of the game. Simmons is a bit soft, but I'm a HUGE fan of his game especially on defense. Dude's insane out there. He deserves better than what Philly has done to him. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 21, 2020 22:17:12 GMT -5
That’s not nearly enough going to Philly. Throw in a couple pick swaps to Philly and maybe that’s a fair deal. Maybe, yet you need to account for Horfords negative value no? Yet if that could happen add pick swaps, add some other picks I don't care. I'll go all in for that crazy unrealistic trade. |
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Oct 22, 2020 5:52:49 GMT -5
I mentioned that the 76's are probably tired of Embid, but they could be tired of Ben Simmons more. He had not been durable for them and can't fit around Embid. They need a shakeup as much as anyone.
I would go all in for that deal. Ben Simmons is a building block and a point forward (a non point guard you run a offense through exclusively). The Celtics need that. Kemba is more of a tweener of a point guard and shooting guard. Not necessarily one or the other; good player but maybe Celtics need more than a tweener? Also this deal gets you that big the Celtics need.
Anytime you get the best player in a deal, it's a great deal in the NBA. You know Danny would do it. Would get me hyped up for this team and buy in. Couldn't buy in to the 2020 Celtics. Uncertainty of Hayward. Uncertainty of Kemba's knee. Tatum and Brown not in their prime yet. Just couldn't get behind it and get excited for it, even though I knew they had a chance at the finals. Just didn't feel like a true title contender.
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 22, 2020 6:25:08 GMT -5
Besides my boy Stanley... Quickley is the most interesting guy here. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 22, 2020 12:45:18 GMT -5
Besides my boy Stanley... Quickley is the most interesting guy here. Why? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 22, 2020 13:04:59 GMT -5
I mentioned that the 76's are probably tired of Embid, but they could be tired of Ben Simmons more. He had not been durable for them and can't fit around Embid. They need a shakeup as much as anyone. I would go all in for that deal. Ben Simmons is a building block and a point forward (a non point guard you run a offense through exclusively). The Celtics need that. Kemba is more of a tweener of a point guard and shooting guard. Not necessarily one or the other; good player but maybe Celtics need more than a tweener? Also this deal gets you that big the Celtics need. Anytime you get the best player in a deal, it's a great deal in the NBA. You know Danny would do it. Would get me hyped up for this team and buy in. Couldn't buy in to the 2020 Celtics. Uncertainty of Hayward. Uncertainty of Kemba's knee. Tatum and Brown not in their prime yet. Just couldn't get behind it and get excited for it, even though I knew they had a chance at the finals. Just didn't feel like a true title contender. I'm slightly confused, Tatum and Brown don't get you excited because they aren't in their primes. Yet a 24 year old Simmons would? He's not in his prime either. Tatum and Brown have been knocking on the finals door 2 out of the last 3 years. They are clearly our top two guys and I think both are clearly better than Simmons. I love the fit with Simmons, he's the perfect third guy for those two. Yet that's what he is, the third guy. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 22, 2020 13:30:00 GMT -5
Besides my boy Stanley... Quickley is the most interesting guy here. Why? Just wasn’t really on my radar - just an interesting prospect with his length and shooting ability. Plus that whole Kentucky guard thing. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 22, 2020 14:04:09 GMT -5
For me he's just a shooter and while he's good I don't see crazy elite like Joe and Terry. He's not a good athlete, I don't see a PG which means he's an undersized SG, he needs to add muscle. He's got a few moves in the paint, yet struggled there at the college level. He doesn't have good assist or steal numbers. Combine him with Hagans and you might have the #1 pick. He didn't create much on tape, Hagans and Maxey created which gave him a ton of open looks.
You trade back into the second he's a target, if he's there at 47 he's for sure a target. I just don't see enough to put him in play for 26 and 30. Yet he'd be a very good two way target. Bulk him up and see if you can get him to play PG, because as a PG he has very good size.
Kinda reminds me of a bigger Avery Bradley, yet not as athletic and minus the crazy elite on ball D. Bradley couldn't bulk up and it limited him.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Oct 22, 2020 15:48:11 GMT -5
I mentioned that the 76's are probably tired of Embid, but they could be tired of Ben Simmons more. He had not been durable for them and can't fit around Embid. They need a shakeup as much as anyone. I would go all in for that deal. Ben Simmons is a building block and a point forward (a non point guard you run a offense through exclusively). The Celtics need that. Kemba is more of a tweener of a point guard and shooting guard. Not necessarily one or the other; good player but maybe Celtics need more than a tweener? Also this deal gets you that big the Celtics need. Anytime you get the best player in a deal, it's a great deal in the NBA. You know Danny would do it. Would get me hyped up for this team and buy in. Couldn't buy in to the 2020 Celtics. Uncertainty of Hayward. Uncertainty of Kemba's knee. Tatum and Brown not in their prime yet. Just couldn't get behind it and get excited for it, even though I knew they had a chance at the finals. Just didn't feel like a true title contender. I'm slightly confused, Tatum and Brown don't get you excited because they aren't in their primes. Yet a 24 year old Simmons would? He's not in his prime either. Tatum and Brown have been knocking on the finals door 2 out of the last 3 years. They are clearly our top two guys and I think both are clearly better than Simmons. I love the fit with Simmons, he's the perfect third guy for those two. Yet that's what he is, the third guy. Cuz he's a great first or third piece (whatever order you want to put him in). It's better than Kemba and company. Simmons and Brown should be entering their prime soon. That would get me excited to see that team grow together. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 23, 2020 18:39:11 GMT -5
Would you trade Smart and 14 for 2?
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Oct 23, 2020 19:03:04 GMT -5
Would you trade Smart and 14 for 2? Would Golden State actually do that? Is the real question. |
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Post by philarhody on Oct 23, 2020 19:25:08 GMT -5
I mentioned that the 76's are probably tired of Embid, but they could be tired of Ben Simmons more. He had not been durable for them and can't fit around Embid. They need a shakeup as much as anyone. I would go all in for that deal. Ben Simmons is a building block and a point forward (a non point guard you run a offense through exclusively). The Celtics need that. Kemba is more of a tweener of a point guard and shooting guard. Not necessarily one or the other; good player but maybe Celtics need more than a tweener? Also this deal gets you that big the Celtics need. Anytime you get the best player in a deal, it's a great deal in the NBA. You know Danny would do it. Would get me hyped up for this team and buy in. Couldn't buy in to the 2020 Celtics. Uncertainty of Hayward. Uncertainty of Kemba's knee. Tatum and Brown not in their prime yet. Just couldn't get behind it and get excited for it, even though I knew they had a chance at the finals. Just didn't feel like a true title contender. I'm slightly confused, Tatum and Brown don't get you excited because they aren't in their primes. Yet a 24 year old Simmons would? He's not in his prime either. Tatum and Brown have been knocking on the finals door 2 out of the last 3 years. They are clearly our top two guys and I think both are clearly better than Simmons. I love the fit with Simmons, he's the perfect third guy for those two. Yet that's what he is, the third guy. Wait, you think Jaylen is clearly better than Ben Simmons? |
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 23, 2020 19:36:29 GMT -5
Would you trade Smart and 14 for 2? Would Golden State actually do that? Is the real question. Maybe, because I don’t think the Celtics do it. This isn’t a normal draft. |
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Oct 23, 2020 19:43:00 GMT -5
Would Golden State actually do that? Is the real question. Maybe, because I don’t think the Celtics do it. This isn’t a normal draft. Depends who's available after pick number one, right? I don't see Danny dismissing the idea of getting more upside from a high pick than Smart and a mid first round pick. |
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Post by philarhody on Oct 23, 2020 20:55:15 GMT -5
Would Golden State actually do that? Is the real question. Maybe, because I don’t think the Celtics do it. This isn’t a normal draft. One of my first gut instincts about this draft was that Wiseman was really good. I’ve spent months reading and hearing pundits talk about Wiseman and drop coverage like he’s some dinosaur. And yet, today I hear KOC say the Warriors really like him at 2. I feel like I’ve come full circle on him. I love how hard he works, and I think he’s the best player in the draft. Wouldn’t be shocked if Charlotte tries to leapfrog Golden State for him. If so, I think Golden State would trade 2 for 14 and Smart. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 23, 2020 21:53:19 GMT -5
I'm slightly confused, Tatum and Brown don't get you excited because they aren't in their primes. Yet a 24 year old Simmons would? He's not in his prime either. Tatum and Brown have been knocking on the finals door 2 out of the last 3 years. They are clearly our top two guys and I think both are clearly better than Simmons. I love the fit with Simmons, he's the perfect third guy for those two. Yet that's what he is, the third guy. Wait, you think Jaylen is clearly better than Ben Simmons? After what Jaylen Brown did in the playoffs, yeah I do. I will admit Brown getting better every year and Simmons not plays a role in that though, fair or not. |
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