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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2020 13:14:01 GMT -5
hardwoodhoudini.com/2020/11/14/boston-celtics-trade-jrue-holiday/I just don't get a bunch of these ideas. In what world is Holiday worth three first round picks more than Hayward or Walker? It's like they are acting like Holiday is this great asset and Hayward/Walker are these crazy negative ones. I don't want to trade 14, yet if you do it better be for a young guy on a good contract like Turner. Yet even then you'd need more. This crap is like the Chris Sale trade ideas, where people had these massive packages and the actual trade was like half that. Well Mark Nilon writes terrible articles so these all make sense. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2020 13:14:52 GMT -5
I keep going back and forth on Turner and his contract.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 14, 2020 13:37:12 GMT -5
I keep going back and forth on Turner and his contract. Same. Right now he is the embodiment (for me) of the guy you love until he gets paid (whether his skill set has diminished or not). |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 14, 2020 15:10:03 GMT -5
He's going into age 24-26 and signed for three years at $18 million per. For a guy I see as the perfect 4th/5th guy isn't that good? Are we worried about his next deal?
For comparison Smart is basically making 13.5 and 14.5 million over the next two years.
For me it's about the cost, like what's the package and is there a better option out there? Can you get a big in free agency on a good deal? I love Turner and the fit, I'm also not trading some huge package for him either. He's not a star or top three guy on a title team. He's just the best option to fill the big need we have.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2020 16:41:11 GMT -5
He's going into age 24-26 and signed for three years at $18 million per. For a guy I see as the perfect 4th/5th guy isn't that good? Are we worried about his next deal? For comparison Smart is basically making 13.5 and 14.5 million over the next two years. For me it's about the cost, like what's the package and is there a better option out there? Can you get a big in free agency on a good deal? I love Turner and the fit, I'm also not trading some huge package for him either. He's not a star or top three guy on a title team. He's just the best option to fill the big need we have. I don’t know, I go back and forth - you also have to take the position into account. Centers and their price tag versus a guard and his. Like I said some days I love it and others I don’t. I love adding a contract in that price range just to have for trades - I do like the player but don’t love the player. I do like his age. I need to know the package. It’s not as easy as one would think to come up with a package. Hayward for Turner requires more salary coming back likely Lamb and McDermott. Do the Celtics want to trade for 3 guys. They can add guys like VP or Edwards or Green to the trade to send out more guys. Then what draft picks do you need to add? I wouldn’t give up #14. |
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Post by texs31 on Nov 14, 2020 22:04:56 GMT -5
He's going into age 24-26 and signed for three years at $18 million per. For a guy I see as the perfect 4th/5th guy isn't that good? Are we worried about his next deal? For comparison Smart is basically making 13.5 and 14.5 million over the next two years. For me it's about the cost, like what's the package and is there a better option out there? Can you get a big in free agency on a good deal? I love Turner and the fit, I'm also not trading some huge package for him either. He's not a star or top three guy on a title team. He's just the best option to fill the big need we have. You're using info and facts. That's a mistake on this one. 😁 It's not based on logic or analysis. Just that weird phenomenon when you love a player (and I did) on his rookie deal but when he gets paid, you constantly ask yourself if hes worth it and start comparing him to cheaper options. You also get into that situation where you start wondering if he'll be doing the same things he did on Indy that he likely will on Boston (offensively) and if that will decrease perception of his value. Anyway that was a lot of explanation when "Yah. I know it doesnt make sense but there it is" probably does it better. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 15, 2020 2:07:09 GMT -5
He's going into age 24-26 and signed for three years at $18 million per. For a guy I see as the perfect 4th/5th guy isn't that good? Are we worried about his next deal? For comparison Smart is basically making 13.5 and 14.5 million over the next two years. For me it's about the cost, like what's the package and is there a better option out there? Can you get a big in free agency on a good deal? I love Turner and the fit, I'm also not trading some huge package for him either. He's not a star or top three guy on a title team. He's just the best option to fill the big need we have. I don’t know, I go back and forth - you also have to take the position into account. Centers and their price tag versus a guard and his. Like I said some days I love it and others I don’t. I love adding a contract in that price range just to have for trades - I do like the player but don’t love the player. I do like his age. I need to know the package. It’s not as easy as one would think to come up with a package. Hayward for Turner requires more salary coming back likely Lamb and McDermott. Do the Celtics want to trade for 3 guys. They can add guys like VP or Edwards or Green to the trade to send out more guys. Then what draft picks do you need to add? I wouldn’t give up #14. The package determines the price in my book and even that could be many different types. It doesn't have to be Hayward at his current salary right? It could be reduced on a sign and trade. Lamb is a negative asset, yet something I wouldn't mind. Mcdermott is another negative asset in my book. Even if we send out a few guys, none reach those levels. So in that form I wouldn't trade 14. Yet add Warren and I might go crazy. I've seen Warren mentioned, yet it doesn't make sense. Another way is Kanter opts in and you piece together 3-4 guys. Kanter, VP, Semi/Green, Edwards, etc. Let's say you keep Hayward, he leaves or trade him else where. I could see trading 14 maybe. I wouldn't want to, yet it could make sense. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 15, 2020 2:25:44 GMT -5
He's going into age 24-26 and signed for three years at $18 million per. For a guy I see as the perfect 4th/5th guy isn't that good? Are we worried about his next deal? For comparison Smart is basically making 13.5 and 14.5 million over the next two years. For me it's about the cost, like what's the package and is there a better option out there? Can you get a big in free agency on a good deal? I love Turner and the fit, I'm also not trading some huge package for him either. He's not a star or top three guy on a title team. He's just the best option to fill the big need we have. You're using info and facts. That's a mistake on this one. 😁 It's not based on logic or analysis. Just that weird phenomenon when you love a player (and I did) on his rookie deal but when he gets paid, you constantly ask yourself if hes worth it and start comparing him to cheaper options. You also get into that situation where you start wondering if he'll be doing the same things he did on Indy that he likely will on Boston (offensively) and if that will decrease perception of his value. Anyway that was a lot of explanation when "Yah. I know it doesnt make sense but there it is" probably does it better. It's all how you look at him. I see a young guy that looks better than his numbers because he played with basically another center in Sabonis. His numbers greatly improve when Sabonis is out. I can't find many players that offer his combo of shot blocking and floor spacing. Yet I get it. He's not a sexy player. |
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Post by artfuldodger on Nov 15, 2020 7:40:18 GMT -5
The problem with the Hayward trade to the Pacers is to find a second piece both teams would agree on. If the Pacers insist on Hayward + 14, then I would want Warren which the Pacers probably would not do. At this point, the Holliday trade which is doubtful is the more likely trade.
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Post by philarhody on Nov 15, 2020 9:12:43 GMT -5
One thing to remember about the Myles Turner stuff. In addition to not being a switchable defender, Turner’s bread and butter on the offensive end is pick and pop shooting. The problem with this is Tatum’s game. Last year Stevens schemed much of Tatum’s finishing around Theis hard dives and seals around the basket. This is partially because Tatum is not naturally a great finisher, despite his elite shooting opening up drive lanes. If you take away Thesis’s dives to the rim and replace it with Myles Turner hobbling around the perimeter/foul line looking for his shot, suddenly things get a lot murkier in the paint and you’ve transferred Tatum’s production for Turner’s production.
I would almost rather see the Celtics get out of the Hayward contract and sign Christian Wood for 4 years at 40 (sss be damned) than go all in on Myles Turner for almost double that.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2020 9:21:10 GMT -5
One thing to remember about the Myles Turner stuff. In addition to not being a switchable defender, Turner’s bread and butter on the offensive end is pick and pop shooting. The problem with this is Tatum’s game. Last year Stevens schemed much of Tatum’s finishing around Theis hard dives and seals around the basket. This is partially because Tatum is not naturally a great finisher, despite his elite shooting opening up drive lanes. If you take away Thesis’s dives to the rim and replace it with Myles Turner hobbling around the perimeter/foul line looking for his shot, suddenly things get a lot murkier in the paint and you’ve transferred Tatum’s production for Turner’s production. I would almost rather see the Celtics get out of the Hayward contract and sign Christian Wood for 4 years at 40 (sss be damned) than go all in on Myles Turner for almost double that. Wood is not signing for 4/40... he’s getting a lot more than that. But yes, if that were an option sign me up. I don’t know if they can even do that though if Hayward opts out. |
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Post by philarhody on Nov 15, 2020 10:06:26 GMT -5
One thing to remember about the Myles Turner stuff. In addition to not being a switchable defender, Turner’s bread and butter on the offensive end is pick and pop shooting. The problem with this is Tatum’s game. Last year Stevens schemed much of Tatum’s finishing around Theis hard dives and seals around the basket. This is partially because Tatum is not naturally a great finisher, despite his elite shooting opening up drive lanes. If you take away Thesis’s dives to the rim and replace it with Myles Turner hobbling around the perimeter/foul line looking for his shot, suddenly things get a lot murkier in the paint and you’ve transferred Tatum’s production for Turner’s production. I would almost rather see the Celtics get out of the Hayward contract and sign Christian Wood for 4 years at 40 (sss be damned) than go all in on Myles Turner for almost double that. Wood is not signing for 4/40... he’s getting a lot more than that. But yes, if that were an option sign me up. I don’t know if they can even do that though if Hayward opts out. Yeah, I’m not sure. Big man, character concerns, and most importantly, a very weird offseason in which most teams don’t have space and are hemorrhaging cash. I could be way off, but I don’t think anyone knows at this point. |
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Nov 15, 2020 10:12:38 GMT -5
Trade market opens Monday at noon, per Woj.
Gonna be a strange, action-packed week or two.
ADD: Cap will be flat this year, with $3m bumps each of the next 3. I guess we will see if that holds given fans won't be back en force for a while.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2020 10:47:06 GMT -5
Wood is not signing for 4/40... he’s getting a lot more than that. But yes, if that were an option sign me up. I don’t know if they can even do that though if Hayward opts out. Yeah, I’m not sure. Big man, character concerns, and most importantly, a very weird offseason in which most teams don’t have space and are hemorrhaging cash. I could be way off, but I don’t think anyone knows at this point. Can the Celtics even offer a 4/40 contract? |
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Post by philarhody on Nov 15, 2020 10:59:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I’m not sure. Big man, character concerns, and most importantly, a very weird offseason in which most teams don’t have space and are hemorrhaging cash. I could be way off, but I don’t think anyone knows at this point. Can the Celtics even offer a 4/40 contract? Not if they resign and keep Hayward. |
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Post by texs31 on Nov 15, 2020 11:19:11 GMT -5
Still on the Harry Giles bandwagon.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 15, 2020 11:20:55 GMT -5
Non Celtics related but, per Woj (and others) it sounds like the Lakers will be getting Dennis Schroder from OKC in a trade involving the 28th pick. It will have to be post draft bc of the Stepien rule for sure.
Unless they are trading Danny Green, it will also have to be after some player options are triggered since, without Green, LAL can't match up on salary.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 15, 2020 12:09:13 GMT -5
One thing to remember about the Myles Turner stuff. In addition to not being a switchable defender, Turner’s bread and butter on the offensive end is pick and pop shooting. The problem with this is Tatum’s game. Last year Stevens schemed much of Tatum’s finishing around Theis hard dives and seals around the basket. This is partially because Tatum is not naturally a great finisher, despite his elite shooting opening up drive lanes. If you take away Thesis’s dives to the rim and replace it with Myles Turner hobbling around the perimeter/foul line looking for his shot, suddenly things get a lot murkier in the paint and you’ve transferred Tatum’s production for Turner’s production. I would almost rather see the Celtics get out of the Hayward contract and sign Christian Wood for 4 years at 40 (sss be damned) than go all in on Myles Turner for almost double that. You need to go watch more recent tape. You're describing like the rookie version of Turner. That player took over 50% of the shots you are talking about. Last year Turner took 65% of his shots from 0-3 feet or three pointers and in the playoffs without Sabonis those shots were 73% of his attempts. 10 feet to inside three point line rookie year 55% to last year 20% of his shots. With just 10.7% being the foul line shots you describe. In the playoffs teams left Theis wide open a 100 times to clog the paint which made crap hard on all players driving. Turner will help open up the paint with floor spacing like with Horford |
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Post by redsox3524 on Nov 15, 2020 13:04:06 GMT -5
Still on the Harry Giles bandwagon. I second this! |
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 15, 2020 13:29:02 GMT -5
One thing these mocks show is the unpredictability as to who goes where after about the first 5 or 6. Hopefully some guys drop that Danny likes, he does have a good history of evaluating talent. He also seems to be due for picking someone that outplays his draft position as it has been a while since the C's struck gold with a mid to late pick. Considering the sheer volume of picks over the past few year you would think a diamond in the rough rough would emerge, maybe one of the Williams duo will be that guy. In regards to this year I actually expect their to be a trade as it just makes sense to surround the J's with someone more their age or a little older rather than 3 more rookies, although their are some interesting International draft and stash guys. I also like the idea of drafting an older player that should be more NBA ready like Bey or Bane, like the Williams pick last year. Should be a fun couple weeks!! How about Hayward and Smart for Turner and Oladipo for a blockbuster.....
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Post by philarhody on Nov 15, 2020 16:53:58 GMT -5
One thing to remember about the Myles Turner stuff. In addition to not being a switchable defender, Turner’s bread and butter on the offensive end is pick and pop shooting. The problem with this is Tatum’s game. Last year Stevens schemed much of Tatum’s finishing around Theis hard dives and seals around the basket. This is partially because Tatum is not naturally a great finisher, despite his elite shooting opening up drive lanes. If you take away Thesis’s dives to the rim and replace it with Myles Turner hobbling around the perimeter/foul line looking for his shot, suddenly things get a lot murkier in the paint and you’ve transferred Tatum’s production for Turner’s production. I would almost rather see the Celtics get out of the Hayward contract and sign Christian Wood for 4 years at 40 (sss be damned) than go all in on Myles Turner for almost double that. You need to go watch more recent tape. You're describing like the rookie version of Turner. That player took over 50% of the shots you are talking about. Last year Turner took 65% of his shots from 0-3 feet or three pointers and in the playoffs without Sabonis those shots were 73% of his attempts. 10 feet to inside three point line rookie year 55% to last year 20% of his shots. With just 10.7% being the foul line shots you describe. In the playoffs teams left Theis wide open a 100 times to clog the paint which made crap hard on all players driving. Turner will help open up the paint with floor spacing like with Horford I did watch recent tape. I didn’t see one dive to the rim. It was all pick and popping. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2020 17:47:06 GMT -5
UMass, you watch film on Tillman? Feel like he could be a perfect pick for them at 30. Ready to play right away. Switchable defender, long arms to make up fir his height. Good passer and pick and roll big.
His shooting form is good enough and he shot 70% from the line that you could see him being a respectable shooter down the road maybe
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 15, 2020 18:19:31 GMT -5
You need to go watch more recent tape. You're describing like the rookie version of Turner. That player took over 50% of the shots you are talking about. Last year Turner took 65% of his shots from 0-3 feet or three pointers and in the playoffs without Sabonis those shots were 73% of his attempts. 10 feet to inside three point line rookie year 55% to last year 20% of his shots. With just 10.7% being the foul line shots you describe. In the playoffs teams left Theis wide open a 100 times to clog the paint which made crap hard on all players driving. Turner will help open up the paint with floor spacing like with Horford I did watch recent tape. I didn’t see one dive to the rim. It was all pick and popping. The numbers I provided are 100% correct, so I'm not sure what you are watching. You aren't going to see drives he's not that type of center. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 15, 2020 20:57:38 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2020 21:09:18 GMT -5
Sounds like a good attitude |
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