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Post by philarhody on Dec 30, 2020 7:13:05 GMT -5
Some general thoughts after last night’s win:
-Last night, Celtics displayed everything that was missing in their series against the Raptors and Heat. Tatum, Brown, and Pritchard (!!!) using probe dribbles and change of pace to initiate contact with Indiana’s bigs was masterful. It’s also what the great ones (Bird, MJ, Kobe, Wade, Kawhi) learned to do when the going gets tough.
-This Indiana team is really good. If Sabonis had been healthy for the 1st round, I think that’s a totally different series against the Heat. He is by far their best player and it’s not really close.
-No one needs to be freaking out about Nesmith. The Celtics have zero margin for victory and they have only played good teams so far. Nesmith plays hard and is long, athletic, smart and tough, but he sort of dances and mirrors opposing offensive players, rather than playing angles and using his smarts and length to recover. He is not a net positive against three high end playoff teams right now, and I don’t blame Stevens for not playing him. But as soon as Boston has a more comfortable lead against a lesser team, or is down double digits like they were against the Nets, I’d expect to see Nesmith play.
-Pritchard is a really really nice player. He is such a good, sureheaded ball handler. One area of continued development is his core strength and explosiveness. He’s not the same shooter off of the dribble as he is from a set standstill. He is lethal when his feet are set and his shot is balanced. I love the way the ball comes out of his hand in those catch and shoot situations.
-Robert Williams needs to be playing Theis’s minutes. Theis is not nearly as impactful as Thompson or Williams on winning basketball. And if you’re playing two big lineups, you might as well be doing it with Robert Williams, whose length and athleticism can make a lesser big or an oversized 3 pay dearly on the offensive boards.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 30, 2020 8:34:14 GMT -5
I was wrong again... I mentioned here that I thought Pritchard would earn real minutes by Feb or March and he was going to be a surprise. Well surprise he has earned more than I thought he would before January. This isn't some small sample size thing, this is who he is. No he won't maintain the FG%'s but he is an impactfull smart NBA player and that isn't going to change, he will only get better. The C's have finally hit on a late 1st round pick. He makes watching games more fun already. Love the way he pushes the ball and attacks!!
Did you see him last night when the other team realizes his range and adjusts to him and he spaces the floor, bang he makes a good pass and has 5 assists. Although he did start to overdue the lobs after early success he will learn from that.
AND Marcus Smart loves him as he has the same all out approach, he is a bulldog out there. He will probably never make an all star team but he will be a very good Celtic!!! Guys like him come along and make it fun to follow a team and be a fan.
Robert Williams looks like he is getting there also. Just play and don't overthink Robert.
I also think that the C's have looked rough early here partly because of the competition. Indiana looks very good and obviously the Bucks and Nets are top teams. Some really great things to take away from the start of this season as far as Pritchard and Williams go along with the Jays.
edit. I almost forgot to mention Smarts play. With his defense and progress in the offensive end he is becoming a real star and at a bargain price. We have reason to be excited about this team and if Kemba can comeback and be 90% of the player he was then with the trade exception adds someone impactful, we could be looking at a roster that will compete for a long time.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 9:21:07 GMT -5
I think the best thing about Pritchard so far is Tatum calls him 8 Mile.
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cdj
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Posts: 15,924 
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Post by cdj on Dec 30, 2020 11:40:22 GMT -5
TT is having a much bigger impact on offense than I anticipated. Defensively is a work in progress with him and Theis on the floor at the same time but I anticipate that will smoothen out.
Fortunately if it doesn’t they can just trade Theis and let TimeLord be an absolute menace to society and destroyer of offense
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Post by texs31 on Dec 30, 2020 11:54:25 GMT -5
Pritchard is way better than I expected, wow. Hope we trade Theis+Carsen+picks for a solid wing using the TPE. Stoked to see this team once Romeo comes back, we could be really good. You would still have 3 bigs with G. Williams becoming the defacto smallball lineup center after trading Theis. Danny needs to learn from the past and get some small value for Theis (not lose a player for nothing ala Rozier, Morris, Gordo). Jaylen Brown has taken yet another leap to a crazy good PnR offensive player. IIUC, it would actually be separate deals (even if with the same team) bc you can't combine the TPE with players. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2020 15:44:32 GMT -5
Pritchard is way better than I expected, wow. Hope we trade Theis+Carsen+picks for a solid wing using the TPE. Stoked to see this team once Romeo comes back, we could be really good. You would still have 3 bigs with G. Williams becoming the defacto smallball lineup center after trading Theis. Danny needs to learn from the past and get some small value for Theis (not lose a player for nothing ala Rozier, Morris, Gordo). Jaylen Brown has taken yet another leap to a crazy good PnR offensive player. IIUC, it would actually be separate deals (even if with the same team) bc you can't combine the TPE with players. That's not true, you can combine them, you can't combine them to go above the 28 million though. You could trade Theis, Edwards and part of the TPE to get a 20 million dollar player, using like 13 million of the TPE. You can't use the TPE and players to get a guy above 28 million like Harden. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2020 16:11:46 GMT -5
Some general thoughts after last night’s win: -Last night, Celtics displayed everything that was missing in their series against the Raptors and Heat. Tatum, Brown, and Pritchard (!!!) using probe dribbles and change of pace to initiate contact with Indiana’s bigs was masterful. It’s also what the great ones (Bird, MJ, Kobe, Wade, Kawhi) learned to do when the going gets tough. -This Indiana team is really good. If Sabonis had been healthy for the 1st round, I think that’s a totally different series against the Heat. He is by far their best player and it’s not really close. -No one needs to be freaking out about Nesmith. The Celtics have zero margin for victory and they have only played good teams so far. Nesmith plays hard and is long, athletic, smart and tough, but he sort of dances and mirrors opposing offensive players, rather than playing angles and using his smarts and length to recover. He is not a net positive against three high end playoff teams right now, and I don’t blame Stevens for not playing him. But as soon as Boston has a more comfortable lead against a lesser team, or is down double digits like they were against the Nets, I’d expect to see Nesmith play. -Pritchard is a really really nice player. He is such a good, sureheaded ball handler. One area of continued development is his core strength and explosiveness. He’s not the same shooter off of the dribble as he is from a set standstill. He is lethal when his feet are set and his shot is balanced. I love the way the ball comes out of his hand in those catch and shoot situations. -Robert Williams needs to be playing Theis’s minutes. Theis is not nearly as impactful as Thompson or Williams on winning basketball. And if you’re playing two big lineups, you might as well be doing it with Robert Williams, whose length and athleticism can make a lesser big or an oversized 3 pay dearly on the offensive boards. That's the very reason I worry about Nesmith, because he's as you describe. He's currently a net negative guy even in a small role on a team that isn't deep. You just described Robert Williams and Langford their rookies years, yet this team had way more depth those years and those guys were raw upside guys. Nesmith was billed as an advanced offensive guy. It was my worry watching tape on him, first year to second year. How many easy open shots he got, level of competition and his ability to create his own shot. I'm not saying anything about long-term, Robert Williams and Terry Rozier are two good example of raw guys that got a lot better. Yet Nesmith certainly doesn't look like Tyler Herro either, Buddy Hield or Klay Thompson or some of the other high comps people used. That's really a worry when it sure seems Danny was banking on Nesmith and Langford to replace Hayward. Let's hope he's a quick study and he starts earning minutes because I don't see Grant Williams or Semi filling those roles. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 16:43:54 GMT -5
IIUC, it would actually be separate deals (even if with the same team) bc you can't combine the TPE with players. That's not true, you can combine them, you can't combine them to go above the 28 million though. You could trade Theis, Edwards and part of the TPE to get a 20 million dollar player, using like 13 million of the TPE. You can't use the TPE and players to get a guy above 28 million like Harden. I could be wrong but I think this in incorrect. The real term is a trade credit. Everyone calls it a TPE but that term doesn’t exist in the CBA. There are 2 types of trades in the NBA: 1. Simultaneous trades where players are traded from teams at the same time. 2. Non-simultaneous trades like the Hayward deal where no player comes back to the Celtics. You can get trade credits aka TPEs in both types but I believe how you have to use them is different. I think in the Hayward case, you need to complete the non-simultaneous trade so it has to be used in the same fashion just the opposite way. |
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Post by texs31 on Dec 30, 2020 17:00:47 GMT -5
Keith Smith (in his piece on CelticsBlog) and others have clearly stated that you cant aggregate TPE with player salaries.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2020 17:53:35 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 18:17:56 GMT -5
Ok, I just looked more into it and it’s really F’d up as both teams can actually complete the deal differently. Which is why UMass is right in reality but not technically (maybe.. idk anymore)
Let’s play a scenario.
In our world the trade is: Celtics deal picks, Langford and Theis for Gordon and picks.
From Orlando’s side it would look like this:
Send out Gordon and get back Langford and Theis.
From the Celtics it would breakdown as 3 deals:
- Gordon traded into the trade exception
- Theis is traded for nothing (creating another trade exception)
- Langford traded for nothing (creating another trade exception)
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Post by philarhody on Dec 30, 2020 18:20:38 GMT -5
Some general thoughts after last night’s win: -Last night, Celtics displayed everything that was missing in their series against the Raptors and Heat. Tatum, Brown, and Pritchard (!!!) using probe dribbles and change of pace to initiate contact with Indiana’s bigs was masterful. It’s also what the great ones (Bird, MJ, Kobe, Wade, Kawhi) learned to do when the going gets tough. -This Indiana team is really good. If Sabonis had been healthy for the 1st round, I think that’s a totally different series against the Heat. He is by far their best player and it’s not really close. -No one needs to be freaking out about Nesmith. The Celtics have zero margin for victory and they have only played good teams so far. Nesmith plays hard and is long, athletic, smart and tough, but he sort of dances and mirrors opposing offensive players, rather than playing angles and using his smarts and length to recover. He is not a net positive against three high end playoff teams right now, and I don’t blame Stevens for not playing him. But as soon as Boston has a more comfortable lead against a lesser team, or is down double digits like they were against the Nets, I’d expect to see Nesmith play. -Pritchard is a really really nice player. He is such a good, sureheaded ball handler. One area of continued development is his core strength and explosiveness. He’s not the same shooter off of the dribble as he is from a set standstill. He is lethal when his feet are set and his shot is balanced. I love the way the ball comes out of his hand in those catch and shoot situations. -Robert Williams needs to be playing Theis’s minutes. Theis is not nearly as impactful as Thompson or Williams on winning basketball. And if you’re playing two big lineups, you might as well be doing it with Robert Williams, whose length and athleticism can make a lesser big or an oversized 3 pay dearly on the offensive boards. That's the very reason I worry about Nesmith, because he's as you describe. He's currently a net negative guy even in a small role on a team that isn't deep. You just described Robert Williams and Langford their rookies years, yet this team had way more depth those years and those guys were raw upside guys. Nesmith was billed as an advanced offensive guy. It was my worry watching tape on him, first year to second year. How many easy open shots he got, level of competition and his ability to create his own shot. I'm not saying anything about long-term, Robert Williams and Terry Rozier are two good example of raw guys that got a lot better. Yet Nesmith certainly doesn't look like Tyler Herro either, Buddy Hield or Klay Thompson or some of the other high comps people used. That's really a worry when it sure seems Danny was banking on Nesmith and Langford to replace Hayward. Let's hope he's a quick study and he starts earning minutes because I don't see Grant Williams or Semi filling those roles. I don’t know what to say. I think Nesmith is really good. I was impressed by him in preseason. He just looks better than Grant and Semi and whoever else is out there. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2020 18:48:18 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 18:50:17 GMT -5
Yea, I laid out above how it works
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 19:01:38 GMT -5
Yea, I laid out above how it works To be technical from the Celtics side it’s simultaneous deals from the other side (Orlando in my example) it’s not, which is why it’s weird. But from a “what we care about” perspective, your way of stating it is accurate and a lot easier. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2020 19:09:16 GMT -5
Yea, I laid out above how it works That's not how it works, even after trading Gordon the Magic are over the cap, they can't just take in salary in trade for nothing. How exactly it works is still fuzzy, yet in your example they would needs to use the trade exception from Gordon or another one to pull it off. Trade rules still apply. You can't do it your way unless a team was under the cap and why would you do a separate trade for both players? |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 19:13:30 GMT -5
Yea, I laid out above how it works That's not how it works, even after trading Gordon the Magic are over the cap, they can't just take in salary in trade for nothing. How exactly it works is still fuzzy, yet in your example they would needs to use the trade exception from Gordon or another one to pull it off. Trade rules still apply. You can't do it your way unless a team was under the cap and why would you do a separate trade for both players? It’s exactly how it works The magic aren’t taking players for nothing - re-read what i wrote: they are taking back salary for Gordon. The Celtics and Magic can treat the same trade very differently: Here’s a real life example that happened: www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/02/hoops-rumors-glossary-traded-player-exception.html |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2020 19:18:56 GMT -5
That's the very reason I worry about Nesmith, because he's as you describe. He's currently a net negative guy even in a small role on a team that isn't deep. You just described Robert Williams and Langford their rookies years, yet this team had way more depth those years and those guys were raw upside guys. Nesmith was billed as an advanced offensive guy. It was my worry watching tape on him, first year to second year. How many easy open shots he got, level of competition and his ability to create his own shot. I'm not saying anything about long-term, Robert Williams and Terry Rozier are two good example of raw guys that got a lot better. Yet Nesmith certainly doesn't look like Tyler Herro either, Buddy Hield or Klay Thompson or some of the other high comps people used. That's really a worry when it sure seems Danny was banking on Nesmith and Langford to replace Hayward. Let's hope he's a quick study and he starts earning minutes because I don't see Grant Williams or Semi filling those roles. I don’t know what to say. I think Nesmith is really good. I was impressed by him in preseason. He just looks better than Grant and Semi and whoever else is out there. He looked more athletic than the tape I watched, yet also kinda looked lost. He went 4-10 and 1-6 from deep in the preseason. I liked his engery, yet I didn't see any polish, playing within the system or anything like that. It looked like a summer league game for him. Again I'm not talking upside, yet NBA ready to play within our offense and defense. Maybe it should be expected, yet I'm see a bunch of rookies playing bigger roles than him on good teams. So I'm a little worried about this year. That 10-20 minute role I had in my head for him might not happen this year or take a lot longer than I expected. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2020 19:37:22 GMT -5
That's not how it works, even after trading Gordon the Magic are over the cap, they can't just take in salary in trade for nothing. How exactly it works is still fuzzy, yet in your example they would needs to use the trade exception from Gordon or another one to pull it off. Trade rules still apply. You can't do it your way unless a team was under the cap and why would you do a separate trade for both players? It’s exactly how it works The magic aren’t taking players for nothing - re-read what i wrote: they are taking back salary for Gordon. The Celtics and Magic can treat the same trade very differently: Here’s a real life example that happened: www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/02/hoops-rumors-glossary-traded-player-exception.htmlThey can, they did that to create exceptions and because I believe the Pistons had cap space and used a minimum salary exception to make it happen. They didn't have to do it that way. The Magic can't acquire Theis without using an exception or cap space in a separate trade. Also why can't the Celtics and Magic make a simultaneous trade? Celtics trade for Gordon creating an exception, magic use that to acquire Theis and Edwards. Isn't that what the Walker for Rozier trade was? They traded us Walker, then used the exception simultaneous to get Rozier? |
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 30, 2020 19:38:31 GMT -5
I think the best thing about Pritchard so far is Tatum calls him 8 Mile. Kendrick Perkins is trying to nickname him P Rabbit |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 19:41:05 GMT -5
They can, they did that to create exceptions and because I believe the Pistons had cap space and used a minimum salary exception to make it happen. They didn't have to do it that way. The Magic can't acquire Theis without using an exception or cap space in a separate trade. Also why can't the Celtics and Magic make a simultaneous trade? Celtics trade for Gordon creating an exception, magic use that to acquire Theis and Edwards. Isn't that what the Walker for Rozier trade was? They traded us Walker, then used the exception simultaneous to get Rozier? They aren’t separate trades - both teams can just structure their sides differently. That’s exactly what the Clippers and Pistons did in the deal outlined in the article. It’s weird but so is the NBA. On Orlando’s side they’d look at it as Gordon for Theis and Langford which satisfies their cap. The Celtics would break it into 3 separate transactions. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 19:48:49 GMT -5
I think the best thing about Pritchard so far is Tatum calls him 8 Mile. Kendrick Perkins is trying to nickname him P Rabbit It’s easier to say |
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,865
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 30, 2020 19:55:20 GMT -5
Why is Robert Williams coming out after 4 minutes when he’s playing really well? These rotations are kind of a mess.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 20:10:45 GMT -5
Why is Robert Williams coming out after 4 minutes when he’s playing really well? These rotations are kind of a mess. He always looks like he’s sucking wind on the court so I’m not sure if that plays a role or he just looks that way |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 20:11:27 GMT -5
Remember when people thought P Rabbit couldn’t get to the hoop? Guys a layup machine
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