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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 7, 2021 11:28:28 GMT -5
Don, you seem to keep ignoring the fact that Ellington and Semi don’t play the same position either. I don’t necessarily have an opinion on adding Ellington or not, I just fail to see how he replaces Semi. I mean the same position in the sense that Ellington is a wing like Semi. He's not a ball handler like Pritchard. He's smaller than Semi and his defensive role would be different, but I see an improvement overall there. Don I wonder why he's going to be cheap? You act like that's a good thing, yet he's cheap because he only does one thing, shoot open three's. He's not a Redick like shooter who can shoot well while taking crazy hard shots. If you want a SG shooter than look at a guy that can create his own offense, we could use that. I don't think we need someone who can create the offense, I think we need someone who can score. If you watch the Stevens offense lately, it features a lot of ISO so there's not a lot of passing going on. Let's say the offense is Tatum going one on one on fools, then he draws a double and there's Ellington clear for a shot. That's it. That's what I want. I don't want another dude going ISO, I want someone who can knock down shots once you drive and kick. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 7, 2021 12:22:12 GMT -5
Don, you seem to keep ignoring the fact that Ellington and Semi don’t play the same position either. I don’t necessarily have an opinion on adding Ellington or not, I just fail to see how he replaces Semi. I mean the same position in the sense that Ellington is a wing like Semi. He's not a ball handler like Pritchard. He's smaller than Semi and his defensive role would be different, but I see an improvement overall there. Don I wonder why he's going to be cheap? You act like that's a good thing, yet he's cheap because he only does one thing, shoot open three's. He's not a Redick like shooter who can shoot well while taking crazy hard shots. If you want a SG shooter than look at a guy that can create his own offense, we could use that. I don't think we need someone who can create the offense, I think we need someone who can score. If you watch the Stevens offense lately, it features a lot of ISO so there's not a lot of passing going on. Let's say the offense is Tatum going one on one on fools, then he draws a double and there's Ellington clear for a shot. That's it. That's what I want. I don't want another dude going ISO, I want someone who can knock down shots once you drive and kick. My issue with that is Semi plays because of his defensive role not his offensive one but you’re getting Ellington for to offensive role so I don’t see them as interchangeable. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 7, 2021 12:29:45 GMT -5
My issue with that is Semi plays because of his defensive role not his offensive one but you’re getting Ellington for to offensive role so I don’t see them as interchangeable. Honestly I don't think Semi is much to write home about on defense. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 7, 2021 13:26:25 GMT -5
So Don you envision Stevens playing three 6'4" and under guards big minutes together?
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 7, 2021 14:45:58 GMT -5
My issue with that is Semi plays because of his defensive role not his offensive one but you’re getting Ellington for to offensive role so I don’t see them as interchangeable. Honestly I don't think Semi is much to write home about on defense. He’s not but he’s solid is a role it’s hard to find a guy who’s solid at. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 7, 2021 18:51:00 GMT -5
So Don you envision Stevens playing three 6'4" and under guards big minutes together? If one of them is Marcus Smart I can see it. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 8, 2021 11:28:53 GMT -5
So Don you envision Stevens playing three 6'4" and under guards big minutes together? If one of them is Marcus Smart I can see it. That's where you lose me. If your Danny you're making moves with the playoffs in mind. They've played Brown and Smart next to Walker for a reason, to help cover his weak D. Ellington isn't a good defender, he basically isn't anything other than a shooter. You've maybe helped the offense, yet you also killed our D. It's impossible to cover two weak defenders with the ways teams switch now a days and you want to do it for a guy averaging 10.6 points even with his career best three point percentage. He'd certainly help some during the regular season, yet he'd eat into Nesmith, Langford and Pritchard minutes. I'm only doing that for a big upgrade come playoff time. I think Pritchard is a better more complete player right now. I want to give Nesmith developmental minutes, I want to give him the chance for things to click. You have to give Langford minutes, he could literally be the wing defender we've needed all year. Part of this is because we haven't been healthy. I really think you're looking at the first half and not factoring in how things change when Smart and Langford get back shortly. It likely doesn't happen, yet Langford could pull a Robert Williams and take a good size jump even after missing so much time. He was rather impressive as a defender even as a rookie. I just need to see the kid play. People are sleeping on Langford's upside though. He's the guy Danny truly believed hurt us when he got injured in the playoffs. That's telling me he looks better in practice and it's just yet to show up in the games. You're looking at replacing the right guys. This team needs to stop playing two centers and our two PFs in Grant and Semi just aren't that good. Fine end of bench guys, just not difference makers in the playoffs. Neither can play small ball center, neither player is a great defender nor great offensive option. So I'm all for finding a replacement for those guys, yet it can't be a SG that's 6'4" unless he's a beast of a defender that plays much bigger than he is. Josh Hart rebounds better than a bunch of PF/C for example. Ellington has a worse rebounding rate than anyone on our team including Waters, which just highlights how he plays. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 8, 2021 11:50:23 GMT -5
If one of them is Marcus Smart I can see it. That's where you lose me. If your Danny you're making moves with the playoffs in mind. They've played Brown and Smart next to Walker for a reason, to help cover his weak D. Ellington isn't a good defender, he basically isn't anything other than a shooter. You've maybe helped the offense, yet you also killed our D. It's impossible to cover two weak defenders with the ways teams switch now a days and you want to do it for a guy averaging 10.6 points even with his career best three point percentage. Ellington isn't that bad on defense. It's doable. You could play him with Smart when Kemba and either Tatum or Brown rests, that doesn't make the offense stagnant and doesn't hurt the defense. You could also play him with Kemba for short spells and see if it flies. |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 8, 2021 12:03:09 GMT -5
I'm so confused as to why we are debating him this much. One of the following MUST be true: 1. He's good enough to be a rotation player on a contending team - this means he's he WILL cost something appreciable. Are you really interested in giving up an asset for him? 2. Or, he's "cheap" which means he likely isn't perceived as a rotational piece in the industry (so Detroit couldn't get anything for him). He's a minimum contract player so it's not like Boston is one of the few teams that could take him on. So which one is he? Either way, at best, he's a "meh" (#2). At worst, he's a "we gave up a 1st or Romeo or Aaron for him?  " |
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 8, 2021 12:33:25 GMT -5
I'm so confused as to why we are debating him this much. One of the following MUST be true: 1. He's good enough to be a rotation player on a contending team - this means he's he WILL cost something appreciable. Are you really interested in giving up an asset for him? 2. Or, he's "cheap" which means he likely isn't perceived as a rotational piece in the industry (so Detroit couldn't get anything for him). He's a minimum contract player so it's not like Boston is one of the few teams that could take him on. So which one is he? Either way, at best, he's a "meh" (#2). At worst, he's a "we gave up a 1st or Romeo or Aaron for him? " What the hell, why are there only these two options? That's arbitrary, you need to be on the look out for solid bargains. It's a mix of both really, he's a low cost player that serves no purpose for the Pistons but could help us. The idea is that theoretically getting him wouldn't cost any real asset. Maybe call Detroit and ask them what's up bro, how do you feel about a couple of 2nds for Wayne? If they say yes, do that deal. If they say no, ask elsewhere. |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 8, 2021 12:50:19 GMT -5
Why is it arbitrary?
IF he's as good as you say he is (and is a minimum salary player, which he is) then there will be competition for him. Competition drives up price. Boston's exception-based "advantage" is non-existent.
If he's only worth a couple of 2nds, then he's not likely the player you are describing so why bother? Don't cheap out for someone who is likely a marginal upgrade (at best) to what they already have.
I'd also just add, bc he's a minimum salary, Detroit would be better served holding on to him for vet leadership (teach the kids) than taking nothing for him.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 8, 2021 13:02:12 GMT -5
Now, after saying it's silly to be discussing him, I'm going to present another reason to do so:
James Edwards III (Athletic-Detroit) and John Hollinger discuss the merits of JEIII's trade proposal of Ellington and Miles Plumlee for Green, next year's 1st and Thompson.
Have at it . . .
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 8, 2021 13:15:21 GMT -5
Why is it arbitrary? IF he's as good as you say he is (and is a minimum salary player, which he is) then there will be competition for him. Competition drives up price. Boston's exception-based "advantage" is non-existent. If he's only worth a couple of 2nds, then he's not likely the player you are describing so why bother? Don't cheap out for someone who is likely a marginal upgrade (at best) to what they already have. I'd also just add, bc he's a minimum salary, Detroit would be better served holding on to him for vet leadership (teach the kids) than taking nothing for him. Why bother? Because our depth for wings is absolutely atrocious. Ellington is not my #1 target, it's an option I mentioned that could be had for cheap theoretically. These deals do happen. Call Detroit and say what about some seconds and a borderline guy like Green (which you mentioned in the next post) for Ellington. If they say no man, I anticipate a bidding war like user texs31 predicted then you thank them and move on to the next guy. Pick up the phone and offer the same deal to Houston for Ben McLemore. If they bite, do it. If not, call someone else. Point is, you can pick up depth if you try. And that's we need right now. Wing depth. We also need a big who can shoot, but those are bound to be pricier. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 8, 2021 14:34:44 GMT -5
That's where you lose me. If your Danny you're making moves with the playoffs in mind. They've played Brown and Smart next to Walker for a reason, to help cover his weak D. Ellington isn't a good defender, he basically isn't anything other than a shooter. You've maybe helped the offense, yet you also killed our D. It's impossible to cover two weak defenders with the ways teams switch now a days and you want to do it for a guy averaging 10.6 points even with his career best three point percentage. Ellington isn't that bad on defense. It's doable. You could play him with Smart when Kemba and either Tatum or Brown rests, that doesn't make the offense stagnant and doesn't hurt the defense. You could also play him with Kemba for short spells and see if it flies. He is the lowest rated starter on his team, per real plus minus he's one of the worst defensive SGs in the league. He's damn close to Kemba. So I thought maybe it's just his team, yet the guys he plays with are positive. Grant, Plumlee and Wright are all ranked good defenders, even Bey the second worst one is rated better than Ellington. That's not a horrible defensive team, 14th in points per game, 18th in defensive efficiency. His 117 defensive rating is third worst on the team, only a guy who played eight minutes and Hayes a rookie who only played seven games are worse. He has a negative 1.7 defensive box score. I can't even find something to says he's only slightly below average. It all screams he's horrible, like almost Kemba Walker bad. Yet that makes perfect sense, if he was a good defender, he'd be one of the best available players. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 8, 2021 14:39:57 GMT -5
Now, after saying it's silly to be discussing him, I'm going to present another reason to do so: James Edwards III (Athletic-Detroit) and John Hollinger discuss the merits of JEIII's trade proposal of Ellington and Miles Plumlee for Green, next year's 1st and Thompson. R Have at it . . . I would expect nothing less from a sports writer in Detroit. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 8, 2021 15:47:26 GMT -5
He is the lowest rated starter on his team, per real plus minus he's one of the worst defensive SGs in the league. He's damn close to Kemba. So I thought maybe it's just his team, yet the guys he plays with are positive. Grant, Plumlee and Wright are all ranked good defenders, even Bey the second worst one is rated better than Ellington. That's not a horrible defensive team, 14th in points per game, 18th in defensive efficiency. His 117 defensive rating is third worst on the team, only a guy who played eight minutes and Hayes a rookie who only played seven games are worse. He has a negative 1.7 defensive box score. I can't even find something to says he's only slightly below average. It all screams he's horrible, like almost Kemba Walker bad. Yet that makes perfect sense, if he was a good defender, he'd be one of the best available players. Did you check his defensive stats last season? He was a better defender than Terry Rozier. Wouldn't you take Terry Rozier right now? |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 8, 2021 15:50:54 GMT -5
I would think if there was any threat of Ellington being a 20PPG player (like Rozier is) there would be more acceptance of his defensive limitations, no?
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 8, 2021 16:39:50 GMT -5
I would think if there was any threat of Ellington being a 20PPG player (like Rozier is) there would be more acceptance of his defensive limitations, no? Would he potentially cost Green and a couple of seconds if that was the case? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 8, 2021 16:51:50 GMT -5
He is the lowest rated starter on his team, per real plus minus he's one of the worst defensive SGs in the league. He's damn close to Kemba. So I thought maybe it's just his team, yet the guys he plays with are positive. Grant, Plumlee and Wright are all ranked good defenders, even Bey the second worst one is rated better than Ellington. That's not a horrible defensive team, 14th in points per game, 18th in defensive efficiency. His 117 defensive rating is third worst on the team, only a guy who played eight minutes and Hayes a rookie who only played seven games are worse. He has a negative 1.7 defensive box score. I can't even find something to says he's only slightly below average. It all screams he's horrible, like almost Kemba Walker bad. Yet that makes perfect sense, if he was a good defender, he'd be one of the best available players. Did you check his defensive stats last season? He was a better defender than Terry Rozier. Wouldn't you take Terry Rozier right now? I've looked at his career defensive stats at Basketball Reference and they are all bad. He only has two spurts when he was traded where it was positive for a limited amount of games and minutes. He's negative 1.0 for his career on average. Ellington had a 116 defensive rating last year and was negative .9 for them, compared to 117 and negative 1.7 this year. Rozier is a 6'1" PG playing SG, he's still able to get a 115 and 114 defensive rating the last two year, in Boston he was 107, 108, 104 and 108 his four years while he played PG. Rozier is a darn good defender at PG, he's not that good at SG. Yet he's still better than Ellington. He also rebounds, gets assists and steals, much more complete player. I'd take him in a heartbeat if he was available, because he's nothing like Ellington. Can Ellington play PG at a high level? Can Ellington drive to the rim to open up our shooters? Rozier has a 17.2 PER, Ellington is 13.2 and that's his career best. 15 is average and that's with Rozier playing out of position. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 8, 2021 17:03:33 GMT -5
Want an example of how players on bad teams that don't play D well translates?
Go look at Luke Kennard, shooting career high from three, yet points cut in half. He's not getting as many shots, plus he can't get major minutes because he's their worst defender at 115. No biggie, oh shit they gave him four years 60 plus million extension.
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 8, 2021 17:14:52 GMT -5
Want an example of how players on bad teams that don't play D well translates? Go look at Luke Kennard, shooting career high from three, yet points cut in half. He's not getting as many shots, plus he can't get major minutes because he's their worst defender at 115. No biggie, oh shit they gave him four years 60 plus million extension. Kennard is shooting .456 from 3 while playing 20 minutes a game. It would be great if we could get that kind of production from anyone on the bench. |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 8, 2021 17:26:20 GMT -5
I would think if there was any threat of Ellington being a 20PPG player (like Rozier is) there would be more acceptance of his defensive limitations, no? Would he potentially cost Green and a couple of seconds if that was the case? Maybe I misunderstood your point in comparing Rozier and Ellington. BC what you'd accept, defensively, from a 20PPG guy and an 11PPG guy are VERY different. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 8, 2021 17:47:00 GMT -5
Want an example of how players on bad teams that don't play D well translates? Go look at Luke Kennard, shooting career high from three, yet points cut in half. He's not getting as many shots, plus he can't get major minutes because he's their worst defender at 115. No biggie, oh shit they gave him four years 60 plus million extension. Kennard is shooting .456 from 3 while playing 20 minutes a game. It would be great if we could get that kind of production from anyone on the bench. What kind of production 7.4 points a game? Pritchard plays 21 minutes and gives you 7.7 points. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 8, 2021 18:10:13 GMT -5
What kind of production 7.4 points a game? Pritchard plays 21 minutes and gives you 7.7 points. Pritchard is a ball handler, Kennard and Ellington are wings. Are we going to be stuck forever on this? Maybe I misunderstood your point in comparing Rozier and Ellington. BC what you'd accept, defensively, from a 20PPG guy and an 11PPG guy are VERY different. I meant that Ellington isn't unplayable bad on defense, on the contrary, he's acceptable. You will not get a legit two way player for a small package and I don't even think we need one. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 8, 2021 18:47:56 GMT -5
What kind of production 7.4 points a game? Pritchard plays 21 minutes and gives you 7.7 points. Pritchard is a ball handler, Kennard and Ellington are wings. Are we going to be stuck forever on this? Maybe I misunderstood your point in comparing Rozier and Ellington. BC what you'd accept, defensively, from a 20PPG guy and an 11PPG guy are VERY different. I meant that Ellington isn't unplayable bad on defense, on the contrary, he's acceptable. You will not get a legit two way player for a small package and I don't even think we need one.
Don go down and look at the play by play, it shows what positions they play. Pritchard has played 64% SG, with Smart coming back that likely goes up. Ellington plays 95% SG. You can keep calling one a wing and one a ball handler all you want, they both play the same position.
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