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Patriots 2021 Offseason Thread
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 9, 2021 9:38:14 GMT -5
They’re totally taking Zaven Collins at 15 I wouldn’t despise it I wouldn’t despise it, but Bill is so good at getting great offensive linemen later in the draft I'd prefer the team go after a spot they're not so skilled at drafting with the 15th pick and get a tackle in the 3rd or 4th. All I care about is them getting a stud with that pick. It can really be any position other than Guard, TE or RB and thru can really use it.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 9, 2021 11:10:51 GMT -5
So a team with a long history of not leaking stuff, makes it biggest move in years and the leak is by accident? This just keeps getting crazier if you believe that. What history? How long has their management been in place? Lynch has only been the GM for 4 years? Also, it's not me who is saying there are leaks. The likes of Breer and others are talking about the leaks (whether it be this pick or how they have or will handle Jimmy G). The rabbit holes I get into just bc I'm willing to consider other possibilities and your refusal to consider anything that doesn't support your opinion is what is crazy. This has been a trend ever since we've started interacting. If you read it or hear it AND it supports your opinion, we're to take it as law. If it doesn't, it's crazy and people are just guessing. Why I continue to fall for it is also pretty crazy. Four years isn't a long time in your book for no leaks? I don't think that's true, I think you're just taking different points from what you read or reading different articles. Like where is the Matt Miller stuff with sources from the team? I don't consider a former employee saying 95% a team source. Where is the Albert Beer information talking about leaks on Mac Jones? I see Beer talking about Jimmy, yet I don't consider that a leak. They put that out there on purpose, they talked directly to the press about it. Heck Beer's first article about Jimmy and that trade talks about them now having time to look at Lance, Jones and Fields. So if he has inside information I'm very confused. I'm very open on changing my mind on this actually. If you have some articles that say what you've been saying then post them please.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 9, 2021 11:46:22 GMT -5
Like you said before, you're not taking a RT at 15, that's not good value. Wynn is moving in the right direction lol. I just feel he deserves another year, given that when he's healthy he's darn good. If you want to look a year out, I still see bigger needs. You have to be considering CB right? LB? WR? Yea, I’m looking at CB and LB, definitely and if a top 3 receiver falls I’ll look at him too, but this is how this particular board fell. Darrisaw isn’t simply a right tackle - he’s a great tackle prospect at left tackle. The point was an exercise in discussing the tackle position in general. It’s a legit need, in my opinion, up there with corner and linebacker. Wynn deserves nothing at this point. Of course he’s getting another year but I’m not waiting on him, plus we know they need at least one new starting tackle next year but it could be 2. Leaving yourself in a spot where you need to replace 2 tackles would be awful. I’m not saying you have to take one in the first. However, if the board falls a certain way, I won’t hate taking a top tackle. Agree to disagree on the OT situation. I can't write off a former first round pick that had an 82 plus PFF grade last year. I don't see Brown getting huge offers again even if he has a great year after his disaster in Oakland. I want to see more Herron who's either just a great swing tackle or maybe more. I'd be perfectly fine moving Onwenu to RT because guards are a lot easier to draft and find value with. I think the OL is a strength with very good depth. I did that mock draft like ten times. It's fun, I just don't agree with the rankings that shape it and some crazy stuff happens. Like Pitts being there at 15, I didn't pick him because there's no way he drops that far with this TE class. He fell to 23 and that's crazy. I was able to get my dream draft of Parsons, Marshall and Trask. Got Banks, a RT/OG, CB, kicker, even got Book in the 7th round. Overall though, I was more disappointed who fell to 15 and ended up trading back the majority of the time because no Parsons, no QBs, no WR or CB dropped. The mock trades always offering you so many future picks was just too good. I loved getting extra picks in the 2nd and third also, got lots of good value picks, yet filling needs became much harder. My take away from that mock simulator is that we should trade up or trade down. Maybe we get lucky, it did happen, yet not enough for me to love the 15th spot. It's like the break-off point, 70% of the time I watched the players I wanted get picked right before our pick. Yet that might be me focusing too much on the QBs, Parsons, the three WRs and the top two CBs in Surtain and Farley.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 9, 2021 14:10:50 GMT -5
I emailed PFF to tell at them for not updating team needs - still have Carolina drafting a QB every draft.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Apr 9, 2021 14:29:52 GMT -5
PFF is insane, I just traded 15th for 20th and then for 26th. Took Mac Jones at 26 and ended up with Chicagos 2022 1st and Clevelands 2022 2nd.....ugh, make me the G.M.?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 9, 2021 16:50:13 GMT -5
The PFN mock simulation is better than PFF. I thought PFN had some out there grades, PFF is extreme and the picks don't go by the grades. The PFN is a lot more fun to play with.
I like the inside LB depth with Moses, Bolton and Surratt. A little later Monty Rice.
I like the CB depth and it’s a very interesting WR class.
I hate the DT class given what we need and upside OT disappear rather quickly.
It’s going to be interesting as the players grades have a very wide range. You got players some see as second round guys, others see 5th round. That's a massive gap.
It’s starting to make me rethink my strategy because I keep running into the best value picks at positions I already addressed.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,874
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Post by cdj on Apr 9, 2021 18:09:23 GMT -5
They’re totally taking Zaven Collins at 15 I wouldn’t despise it I wouldn’t despise it, but Bill is so good at getting great offensive linemen later in the draft I'd prefer the team go after a spot they're not so skilled at drafting with the 15th pick and get a tackle in the 3rd or 4th. Collins is a LB out of Tulsa
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,874
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Post by cdj on Apr 9, 2021 23:04:55 GMT -5
Collins is a LB out of Tulsa I should learn to read sometime. Lol happens to the best of us, he’s not a particularly well known 1st round draft prospect so it’s understandable Basically has everything the Pats love in a LB though, would be nice to have an heir apparent to Hightower Wouldn’t shock me if they move Winovich at the draft. He’s a good player but you can tell they aren’t going to ever play him as an every down LB because of his inability to set the edge against the run. They’ll just send him after the QB on passing downs but honestly he would have more value elsewhere and I could see a team moving a 2nd or 3rd for him (probably a 3rd)
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 10, 2021 5:49:00 GMT -5
I should learn to read sometime. Lol happens to the best of us, he’s not a particularly well known 1st round draft prospect so it’s understandable Basically has everything the Pats love in a LB though, would be nice to have an heir apparent to Hightower Wouldn’t shock me if they move Winovich at the draft. He’s a good player but you can tell they aren’t going to ever play him as an every down LB because of his inability to set the edge against the run. They’ll just send him after the QB on passing downs but honestly he would have more value elsewhere and I could see a team moving a 2nd or 3rd for him (probably a 3rd) If be shocked if you got more than 4 or 5 for Wino and wouldn’t be surprised if it were less. Like one of those you get a 4 but send out a 6. His problem isn’t just setting the edge against the run, it’s he’s undisciplined with the pass rush and will get too far up the field. The Patriots want a controlled pass rush to not break containment so the QB can’t escape the pocket so easily.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 10, 2021 11:25:05 GMT -5
Why would you trade Winovich? It's like we finally have good depth and people just want to trade it away. You think he's a negative as a pass rushing guy?
Collins is just like Collins lol, as in I see a middle LB right now. His best trait is his ability to defend the pass. He's raw rushing the passer and isn't very good against the run. Now he might be able to develop into that given his size and back ground. Yet right now I don't see how Collins comes into play with Winovich.
I also hate how much blame gets tossed his way. We got run on like crazy with Van Noy, Collins and Hightower in 2019. It's Bills crazy new hybrid 3-4, that was much more like 2-4 most of the time. I'd also point to Wise, who basically had the same label for years, pass rushing specialist. Yet he turned that around last year. You can't reprogram young players overnight and no young players have played in a D like Bill is currently using.
I know Bill sees the problem, because he brought in two DT known for run defense.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 10, 2021 12:17:27 GMT -5
I don’t want to trade Wino just staying what I think you could get for him. It was pretty telling how little PT he got last year though so I think people are trying to connect dots that he may not be a fit here. He’s clearly not seen as a 3 down guy by Bill and I don’t think there will be no demand for him on the FA market after his rookie contract expires. He will probably seek a bigger role with more leash if he’s not given it here.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 10, 2021 13:30:31 GMT -5
He played 58% of the defensive snaps, had 24 hurries, 7 QB knockdowns, 5.5 sacks for a total of 37 pressures. He's not very good against the run, yet he applies a bunch of pressure. He didn't look great as the #1 guy, yet he's the type of guy you need in today's NFL. If he's all of a sudden your #2 or #3 guy now you have something.
Judon has had 36, 31 and 32 pressures the last three years. Now he gets more QB knockdowns and sacks, with less hurries. I'd argue Winovich is on the cusp of being a force as a pass rusher. He just needs to convert some of those hurries into hits or sacks.
Maybe he leaves, maybe he becomes Wise. He's an asset for this team and I wouldn't consider for one second trading him for a 4th round pick. Cassius Marsh cost a 5th and 7th round pick with one year of control and he didn't come close to having Winovich's production.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 10, 2021 14:50:10 GMT -5
He played 58% of the defensive snaps, had 24 hurries, 7 QB knockdowns, 5.5 sacks for a total of 37 pressures. He's not very good against the run, yet he applies a bunch of pressure. He didn't look great as the #1 guy, yet he's the type of guy you need in today's NFL. If he's all of a sudden your #2 or #3 guy now you have something. Judon has had 36, 31 and 32 pressures the last three years. Now he gets more QB knockdowns and sacks, with less hurries. I'd argue Winovich is on the cusp of being a force as a pass rusher. He just needs to convert some of those hurries into hits or sacks. Maybe he leaves, maybe he becomes Wise. He's an asset for this team and I wouldn't consider for one second trading him for a 4th round pick. Cassius Marsh cost a 5th and 7th round pick with one year of control and he didn't come close to having Winovich's production. I am not disputing any of that.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 11, 2021 5:53:21 GMT -5
From Bedard’s mock draft: Mac Jones to the 49ers: The rest of the NFL would be shocked if the 49ers’ pick is not Mac Jones. And that’s good news for the Patriots, if you want to wind up with Jimmy Garoppolo. Jones is a younger, smarter and more durable Garoppolo. Once minicamps are over, Jones will have won over the coaches and they’ll be convinced they don’t need Garoppolo and will be more willing to move him to recoup that cap space. Also good news in this mock: two teams would be removed from Garoppolo trade competition. www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/04/11/nfl-notebook-mock-draft-1-0-features-two-trade-ups-qbs-not-patriots/
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,874
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Post by cdj on Apr 11, 2021 8:25:11 GMT -5
He played 58% of the defensive snaps, had 24 hurries, 7 QB knockdowns, 5.5 sacks for a total of 37 pressures. He's not very good against the run, yet he applies a bunch of pressure. He didn't look great as the #1 guy, yet he's the type of guy you need in today's NFL. If he's all of a sudden your #2 or #3 guy now you have something. Judon has had 36, 31 and 32 pressures the last three years. Now he gets more QB knockdowns and sacks, with less hurries. I'd argue Winovich is on the cusp of being a force as a pass rusher. He just needs to convert some of those hurries into hits or sacks. Maybe he leaves, maybe he becomes Wise. He's an asset for this team and I wouldn't consider for one second trading him for a 4th round pick. Cassius Marsh cost a 5th and 7th round pick with one year of control and he didn't come close to having Winovich's production. To be clear I’m not advocating for trading him- especially for a 4th- but it wouldn’t surprise me if they do. I feel like something has to give with Uche, Jennings, and Winovich all backing up and Uche/Jennings have more years left on their rookie deal. I think Wino has more value elsewhere and if the pats get an early day 2 pick offered he’ll be gone (and he will probably get double digit sacks) I think Uche and Winovich are basically going to be competing for the passing down edge rusher role. I know Uche did very well beating his man last year and expect more of the same. Iirc he was one of the best rookies beating his blocker 1 on 1....might’ve been one of the best in the league overall even Idk. I don’t think trading Wino is ideal but it certainly seems like BB is pretty hard on him. Maybe that’s because he thinks he’s special and wants more out of him, maybe that’s because he’s genuinely frustrated with him
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 11, 2021 8:25:29 GMT -5
Going out on a line and predicting that Newton will be very good next year. Not sure I want the delicate Jimmy G back.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 11, 2021 8:27:26 GMT -5
I can't do it. No Jimmy by draft day and I'm making other moves. If they are moving him for cap space wouldn't the sooner the better make sense? The longer you wait, the less talent is available. I just can't wait and just hope the 49ers maybe do something. We need a backup plan to Newton this year.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 11, 2021 9:06:46 GMT -5
I can't do it. No Jimmy by draft day and I'm making other moves. If they are moving him for cap space wouldn't the sooner the better make sense? The longer you wait, the less talent is available. I just can't wait and just hope the 49ers maybe do something. We need a backup plan to Newton this year. Cap space does roll over in the NFL tho so using it this year isn’t necessary for it to be useful.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 11, 2021 9:07:38 GMT -5
I could be wrong but Jennings isn’t starter material. Unless his speed greatly improves as the game slows down for him, he is a backup depth guy at best.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,874
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Post by cdj on Apr 11, 2021 9:27:58 GMT -5
I could be wrong but Jennings isn’t starter material. Unless his speed greatly improves as the game slows down for him, he is a backup depth guy at best. I could see him turning into a John Simon type player. A steady player in this system. He’s got some steps he has to take though. I don’t think he’ll ever have sexy stats
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 11, 2021 9:35:18 GMT -5
He played 58% of the defensive snaps, had 24 hurries, 7 QB knockdowns, 5.5 sacks for a total of 37 pressures. He's not very good against the run, yet he applies a bunch of pressure. He didn't look great as the #1 guy, yet he's the type of guy you need in today's NFL. If he's all of a sudden your #2 or #3 guy now you have something. Judon has had 36, 31 and 32 pressures the last three years. Now he gets more QB knockdowns and sacks, with less hurries. I'd argue Winovich is on the cusp of being a force as a pass rusher. He just needs to convert some of those hurries into hits or sacks. Maybe he leaves, maybe he becomes Wise. He's an asset for this team and I wouldn't consider for one second trading him for a 4th round pick. Cassius Marsh cost a 5th and 7th round pick with one year of control and he didn't come close to having Winovich's production. To be clear I’m not advocating for trading him- especially for a 4th- but it wouldn’t surprise me if they do. I feel like something has to give with Uche, Jennings, and Winovich all backing up and Uche/Jennings have more years left on their rookie deal. I think Wino has more value elsewhere and if the pats get an early day 2 pick offered he’ll be gone (and he will probably get double digit sacks) I think Uche and Winovich are basically going to be competing for the passing down edge rusher role. I know Uche did very well beating his man last year and expect more of the same. Iirc he was one of the best rookies beating his blocker 1 on 1....might’ve been one of the best in the league overall even Idk. I don’t think trading Wino is ideal but it certainly seems like BB is pretty hard on him. Maybe that’s because he thinks he’s special and wants more out of him, maybe that’s because he’s genuinely frustrated with him Bill is hard on everyone, it's how Winovich responds that will determine his future role. He did bounce back and played a lot more after those few games he hardly played. Isn't Winovich the only one of those three that lined up in a DL position a ton? You had him and Simon doing that the majority of the year. I truly believe LB are the heart of a 3-4 and I finally like the depth. Uche is just a pass rushing specialist untill he shows more. Jennings had more issues than Winovich setting the edge, yet I do really like him. It just depends how Bill plans on using them. If he's doing the D, like the last two years you need a bunch of those guys because he's been using an extra OLB instead of a DL guy on passing downs. It's not your typical 3-4, with only two OLB. He's been using three of them. What's Van Noys role? Does he play MLB or OLB or some hybrid role? He's done all three over the years. Last year's 53 opening day roster had eight LBers, four are gone in Copeland, Simon, Calhoun and Rivers. We currently have eight guys not including depth guys Bentley, Hall, Hightower, Jennings, Uche, Van Noy and Winovich. Hall impressed me last year, yet he's no lock to make the team and while it likely won't happen I want Bentley gone. Nothing will surprise me with Bill. Yet if you end up moving Winovich I hope it's towards the end of camp. Wait for a team to have an injury and you'll get a lot more in trade. Another interesting thing to keep an eye on, does Bill shift things up? Maybe keep and use more true DL than LB. Move back to a more traditional 3-4. Maybe he targets some of those bigger DEs the 270-280 pound ones like Kwity Paye. I bring this up because I do find it a little strange that they only have fringe Carl Davis as a big DT.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 11, 2021 10:05:30 GMT -5
Bobby Brown from Texas is a guy I keep coming back to for the Patriots in the 4th/5th rd.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 11, 2021 10:11:20 GMT -5
I can't do it. No Jimmy by draft day and I'm making other moves. If they are moving him for cap space wouldn't the sooner the better make sense? The longer you wait, the less talent is available. I just can't wait and just hope the 49ers maybe do something. We need a backup plan to Newton this year. Cap space does roll over in the NFL tho so using it this year isn’t necessary for it to be useful. The coach/GM have made it clear they are trying to win this year. It's not a rebuilding year or a bridge type year. Dumping Jimmy for cap space that they use next year is basically doing just that. You've made the team worse without spending extra money or getting draft picks this year. Nevermind Jimmy's deal becomes fully guaranteed the first day of the league year. Only one team has enough cap space for him currently and the Jags aren't trading for him. The Broncos could maybe create enough. Your basically at the point where he has to redo his deal to get traded, that gives him a ton of leverage. He's not going to be easy to trade and you risk upsetting your team. Now Jimmy for Gilmore solves a bunch of those issues. Yet that's the type of trade you have worked out before the draft so the Patriots can plan for it. Not the type of deal you make during summer mini camps. If you're Bill are you waiting to mid summer hoping that Mac Jones looks good so you can maybe trade for him? If the 49ers go that route, it's more likely the end up just releasing him, yet that's kinda of crazy. Maybe it's just me, yet I believe in making rookie QBs earn playing time and having veterans to help teach them. I want Jimmy, yet the draft is my deadline. Otherwise I'm looking at trading for a veteran like Minshew or drafting a guy like Trask. I frankly would be shocked if it played out they way Bedard thinks.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 11, 2021 12:37:40 GMT -5
Cap space does roll over in the NFL tho so using it this year isn’t necessary for it to be useful. The coach/GM have made it clear they are trying to win this year. It's not a rebuilding year or a bridge type year. Dumping Jimmy for cap space that they use next year is basically doing just that. You've made the team worse without spending extra money or getting draft picks this year. Nevermind Jimmy's deal becomes fully guaranteed the first day of the league year. Only one team has enough cap space for him currently and the Jags aren't trading for him. The Broncos could maybe create enough. Your basically at the point where he has to redo his deal to get traded, that gives him a ton of leverage. He's not going to be easy to trade and you risk upsetting your team. Now Jimmy for Gilmore solves a bunch of those issues. Yet that's the type of trade you have worked out before the draft so the Patriots can plan for it. Not the type of deal you make during summer mini camps. If you're Bill are you waiting to mid summer hoping that Mac Jones looks good so you can maybe trade for him? If the 49ers go that route, it's more likely the end up just releasing him, yet that's kinda of crazy. Maybe it's just me, yet I believe in making rookie QBs earn playing time and having veterans to help teach them. I want Jimmy, yet the draft is my deadline. Otherwise I'm looking at trading for a veteran like Minshew or drafting a guy like Trask. I frankly would be shocked if it played out they way Bedard thinks. I’m not saying how anything will play out but if it does play out the way Bedard suggests it could and the coaches think Mac Jones is equal to or better than Jimmy already then getting the cap space even if for next year makes a lot of sense. Jimmy has a no trade clause - that’s all the leverage he needs. However, if he’s going to sit on the bench or possibly get cut then he will likely play ball on a trade to a place like NE on a restructured contract. Makes the most sense financially for him. It might just be me hoping but I’m starting to believe in Cam being better than last year.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 11, 2021 17:42:53 GMT -5
I said I wasn’t going to get into the draft this year and I’m about 3 months late on it but I’m mock draft obsessed now.
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