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Red Sox Trade Springs and Mazza to the Rays
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Post by agastonguay13 on Feb 17, 2021 17:17:17 GMT -5
This trade is a win, simply because of the fact it was made. Dombrowski wouldn't have pulled this off. Look, Hernandez has a range of outcomes and may never make it in the big leagues. That won't mean the trade wasn't worth it or was a 'loss.' The loss would be losing Mazza and Springs for nothing on waivers. Combining them both and flipping for a former Top 100 prospect + another org guy is just good business. Again, many of these trades in isolation may not result in long-term value, but the sheer fact that Bloom is very active in making moves along the periphery increase the odds of obtaining cheap, cost-controlled, future value and thats all part of the plan for sustainable success. I agree with this, but I also would like to see a few moves that are non-periphery winners. People can say this is what Dombrowski didn’t do, but we also don’t know how much context matters. DD was brought in to build a juggernaut, and he did. So far, we can look at getting Sale or signing JDM and say “these are the sorts of moves Bloom doesn’t pull off.” In context, so far he hasn’t been tasked with that. But the comp is apples and oranges. Again, Bloom gets plaudits as a seller and as a bargain hunter. That has been the plan, it appears. But there will come a day when they will need to shift gears to be a serious contender. That’s when I’ll be ready to compare him to DD (who has a heavier ring finger at the moment). I think these periphery moves are a necessity for being able to make those big splashes later. All these acquisitions aren't going to wind up playing for the big club through free agency. All of these deals have involved acquiring guys who's values should only increase. Somebody made a joke about the red paperclip project earlier in the thread, but I think that's precisely what's happening. There's no concrete plan to trade any of these new acquisitions anytime soon, but stretching the depth of the system from a decent top 5 followed by 25 question marks to a decent top 8-10 with some legitimate prospects past that who look to be trending upwards speaks to an overall idea of unloading some of these acquisitions somewhere down the line for some heavier hitters. Small market teams are producing stars that they won't be able to afford every season, and starting to save and invest now in the currency it'll take to pry them lose is a smart move.
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Post by manfred on Feb 17, 2021 17:32:14 GMT -5
I agree with this, but I also would like to see a few moves that are non-periphery winners. People can say this is what Dombrowski didn’t do, but we also don’t know how much context matters. DD was brought in to build a juggernaut, and he did. So far, we can look at getting Sale or signing JDM and say “these are the sorts of moves Bloom doesn’t pull off.” In context, so far he hasn’t been tasked with that. But the comp is apples and oranges. Again, Bloom gets plaudits as a seller and as a bargain hunter. That has been the plan, it appears. But there will come a day when they will need to shift gears to be a serious contender. That’s when I’ll be ready to compare him to DD (who has a heavier ring finger at the moment). I think these periphery moves are a necessity for being able to make those big splashes later. All these acquisitions aren't going to wind up playing for the big club through free agency. All of these deals have involved acquiring guys who's values should only increase. Somebody made a joke about the red paperclip project earlier in the thread, but I think that's precisely what's happening. There's no concrete plan to trade any of these new acquisitions anytime soon, but stretching the depth of the system from a decent top 5 followed by 25 question marks to a decent top 8-10 with some legitimate prospects past that who look to be trending upwards speaks to an overall idea of unloading some of these acquisitions somewhere down the line for some heavier hitters. Small market teams are producing stars that they won't be able to afford every season, and starting to save and invest now in the currency it'll take to pry them lose is a smart move. That’s fine, and I hope so. To me, and I know some disagree, DD had a good record on the other end... a lot of prospects went out, huge talent came in, duck boats were launched. So perhaps we are half way to that. But half way to something gets a grade of incomplete from me. And... I would not have brought any of this up, but the comparison was made. As I’ve said elsewhere, I get prickly when we have guys who do what we ask of them and we kick ‘em on the way out. DD may have left us in a bit of a pickle, but a) I think he was working with ownership; and b) there were not a lot of complaints in 2018. If there is a hangover, it isn’t all because DD was a cowboy. He gave us what we wanted.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 17, 2021 18:03:06 GMT -5
I think these periphery moves are a necessity for being able to make those big splashes later. All these acquisitions aren't going to wind up playing for the big club through free agency. All of these deals have involved acquiring guys who's values should only increase. Somebody made a joke about the red paperclip project earlier in the thread, but I think that's precisely what's happening. There's no concrete plan to trade any of these new acquisitions anytime soon, but stretching the depth of the system from a decent top 5 followed by 25 question marks to a decent top 8-10 with some legitimate prospects past that who look to be trending upwards speaks to an overall idea of unloading some of these acquisitions somewhere down the line for some heavier hitters. Small market teams are producing stars that they won't be able to afford every season, and starting to save and invest now in the currency it'll take to pry them lose is a smart move. That’s fine, and I hope so. To me, and I know some disagree, DD had a good record on the other end... a lot of prospects went out, huge talent came in, duck boats were launched. So perhaps we are half way to that. But half way to something gets a grade of incomplete from me. And... I would not have brought any of this up, but the comparison was made. As I’ve said elsewhere, I get prickly when we have guys who do what we ask of them and we kick ‘em on the way out. DD may have left us in a bit of a pickle, but a) I think he was working with ownership; and b) there were not a lot of complaints in 2018. If there is a hangover, it isn’t all because DD was a cowboy. He gave us what we wanted. You're being fair to wait to see how Bloom handles dealing with a pennant contender and if he can make them win the big one and then sustain it. But in regards to Dombrowski, what hand did he have in building the farm system that produced crazy good front line talent? Practically none. He came in like a Rollie Fingers closer and came in and sealed the deal in creating the greatest Red Sox team of all-time. But he did nothing in building the foundation of the team. That was Ben Cherington mostly (and even a bit Theo). I don't want to say that DD can't build a team from the ground up. He did a great job cashing in the winner he built in Florida in 1997. He was forced to burn it down to the ground and he made great trades that laid the foundation for the 2003 World Champs. But what Dombrowski didn't do was the sneaky good little deal that increases depth unless you consider Colten Brewer a steal. He thinned out the depth of a top heavy system. It sounds like I'm complaining but I'm not. He is great at sorting out talent. That's what he did with the Red Sox. He knew which prospects to keep, which ones more easily expendable. Yes, he dealt away Randy Johnson and Eugenio Suarez, but for the most part his track record was damn good. Bloom is here for the long-term, not the short-term so he'll get the opportunity to build a team from the ground up, try to win with it (easier said than done) and then try to sustain it if they do win (extremely difficult). His first goal is to thicken the farm system, add depth. That's even more important over the long-term than some big impactful addition to 2021's club. The Red Sox won't be a "favorite" to win for awhile, but I don't think that's his main concern. The hope is to be fairly competitive for the time being, but that's secondary to what he's trying to do. He wants a team that's a threat to win just about every year, or basically what the Dodgers have been, what the Yankees have done, and what the Braves had done in the Schuerholz/Cox era.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 17, 2021 18:30:22 GMT -5
For those wondering, 14, with usual caveat that until we see a guy it's more guesswork than usual, plus standard 2020 "the teams have way more data than we do" caveat.
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Post by manfred on Feb 17, 2021 18:39:53 GMT -5
That’s fine, and I hope so. To me, and I know some disagree, DD had a good record on the other end... a lot of prospects went out, huge talent came in, duck boats were launched. So perhaps we are half way to that. But half way to something gets a grade of incomplete from me. And... I would not have brought any of this up, but the comparison was made. As I’ve said elsewhere, I get prickly when we have guys who do what we ask of them and we kick ‘em on the way out. DD may have left us in a bit of a pickle, but a) I think he was working with ownership; and b) there were not a lot of complaints in 2018. If there is a hangover, it isn’t all because DD was a cowboy. He gave us what we wanted. You're being fair to wait to see how Bloom handles dealing with a pennant contender and if he can make them win the big one and then sustain it. But in regards to Dombrowski, what hand did he have in building the farm system that produced crazy good front line talent? Practically none. He came in like a Rollie Fingers closer and came in and sealed the deal in creating the greatest Red Sox team of all-time. But he did nothing in building the foundation of the team. That was Ben Cherington mostly (and even a bit Theo). I don't want to say that DD can't build a team from the ground up. He did a great job cashing in the winner he built in Florida in 1997. He was forced to burn it down to the ground and he made great trades that laid the foundation for the 2003 World Champs. But what Dombrowski didn't do was the sneaky good little deal that increases depth unless you consider Colten Brewer a steal. He thinned out the depth of a top heavy system. It sounds like I'm complaining but I'm not. He is great at sorting out talent. That's what he did with the Red Sox. He knew which prospects to keep, which ones more easily expendable. Yes, he dealt away Randy Johnson and Eugenio Suarez, but for the most part his track record was damn good. Bloom is here for the long-term, not the short-term so he'll get the opportunity to build a team from the ground up, try to win with it (easier said than done) and then try to sustain it if they do win (extremely difficult). His first goal is to thicken the farm system, add depth. That's even more important over the long-term than some big impactful addition to 2021's club. The Red Sox won't be a "favorite" to win for awhile, but I don't think that's his main concern. The hope is to be fairly competitive for the time being, but that's secondary to what he's trying to do. He wants a team that's a threat to win just about every year, or basically what the Dodgers have been, what the Yankees have done, and what the Braves had done in the Schuerholz/Cox era. Again, I basically accept this, though penalizing DD for not *further* building depth when his mandate seems to have been kick ass and take names is only fair if you, say, penalize Bloom for trading away potentially the best player baseball. That is, they both came in under different circumstances and acted accordingly. Why should DD have built depth? He was building the best team in Sox history. The other thing I’d take some issue with is the assessment that the Sox won’t compete for “awhile,” but that’s not what Bloom is trying to do. This is not Tampa or KC. They bombed last year, they are going to be ok this year. I’d say if they aren’t a serious contender in ‘22 or ‘23, the leash is pretty friggin’ taut. You say he wants to build a team that is a “threat” every year. I disagree. He is here to build a team that *wins* at least once. I am not 100% sure those are fully compatible. The Dodgers may pay the piper in the next few years. The Yankees have won once in 20 years. Teams — ahem, the Rays — who are always sorta competitive may not push enough to get over the top. I mean.... the Rays could have kept Snell and Morton and made one more huge splash this offseason — figuring they were just short last year. But they stepped back because that might have been an over commitment. So likely another window closes, and yet they will certainly remain “competitive” this year (I think they could sneak past the Sox for a wild card). I’ve said before, the last few years have seen juggernauts win. The age of selling out to field a massive team — even if the cost is a painful reset — is not necessarily behind us.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 17, 2021 18:49:12 GMT -5
For those wondering, 14, with usual caveat that until we see a guy it's more guesswork than usual, plus standard 2020 "the teams have way more data than we do" caveat. So, just behind last year's surprise first round pick, and ahead of their second pick in 2018, 2019 and 2020 (the last being a third-round pick).
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bosox
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Post by bosox on Feb 17, 2021 19:26:57 GMT -5
Interesting tidbit. Not sure if it was mentioned, but Nick Sogard's cousin is Eric Sogard and he is the nephew of Dave and Steve Sax. Nice article on Sogard. Link
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 17, 2021 23:21:37 GMT -5
You're being fair to wait to see how Bloom handles dealing with a pennant contender and if he can make them win the big one and then sustain it. But in regards to Dombrowski, what hand did he have in building the farm system that produced crazy good front line talent? Practically none. He came in like a Rollie Fingers closer and came in and sealed the deal in creating the greatest Red Sox team of all-time. But he did nothing in building the foundation of the team. That was Ben Cherington mostly (and even a bit Theo). I don't want to say that DD can't build a team from the ground up. He did a great job cashing in the winner he built in Florida in 1997. He was forced to burn it down to the ground and he made great trades that laid the foundation for the 2003 World Champs. But what Dombrowski didn't do was the sneaky good little deal that increases depth unless you consider Colten Brewer a steal. He thinned out the depth of a top heavy system. It sounds like I'm complaining but I'm not. He is great at sorting out talent. That's what he did with the Red Sox. He knew which prospects to keep, which ones more easily expendable. Yes, he dealt away Randy Johnson and Eugenio Suarez, but for the most part his track record was damn good. Bloom is here for the long-term, not the short-term so he'll get the opportunity to build a team from the ground up, try to win with it (easier said than done) and then try to sustain it if they do win (extremely difficult). His first goal is to thicken the farm system, add depth. That's even more important over the long-term than some big impactful addition to 2021's club. The Red Sox won't be a "favorite" to win for awhile, but I don't think that's his main concern. The hope is to be fairly competitive for the time being, but that's secondary to what he's trying to do. He wants a team that's a threat to win just about every year, or basically what the Dodgers have been, what the Yankees have done, and what the Braves had done in the Schuerholz/Cox era. Again, I basically accept this, though penalizing DD for not *further* building depth when his mandate seems to have been kick ass and take names is only fair if you, say, penalize Bloom for trading away potentially the best player baseball. That is, they both came in under different circumstances and acted accordingly. Why should DD have built depth? He was building the best team in Sox history. The other thing I’d take some issue with is the assessment that the Sox won’t compete for “awhile,” but that’s not what Bloom is trying to do. This is not Tampa or KC. They bombed last year, they are going to be ok this year. I’d say if they aren’t a serious contender in ‘22 or ‘23, the leash is pretty friggin’ taut. You say he wants to build a team that is a “threat” every year. I disagree. He is here to build a team that *wins* at least once. I am not 100% sure those are fully compatible. The Dodgers may pay the piper in the next few years. The Yankees have won once in 20 years. Teams — ahem, the Rays — who are always sorta competitive may not push enough to get over the top. I mean.... the Rays could have kept Snell and Morton and made one more huge splash this offseason — figuring they were just short last year. But they stepped back because that might have been an over commitment. So likely another window closes, and yet they will certainly remain “competitive” this year (I think they could sneak past the Sox for a wild card). I’ve said before, the last few years have seen juggernauts win. The age of selling out to field a massive team — even if the cost is a painful reset — is not necessarily behind us. You asked why DD should have built depth? I think the answer is obvious looking at what the Red Sox are now. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have included Allen in the Kimbrel deal, etc. What I am saying is - well take a look at what Bloom did today. He got a legit catching prospect - maybe he pans out maybe he doesn't, but what the hell did it cost him? Two fungible replacement level relievers? He also took on Ottavino's salary with a prospect stapled to it. DD didn't make those kinds of moves. He was very straight forward with his moves. It was almost like he'd make a list like the kind you'd make for grocery shopping and then he'd shop for the groceries - normally high quality groceries. The problem is somewhere along the line the communication between him and the FO got messed up because as wonderful as 2018 was - and yeah, I'd love to live there all the time - but the sad fact is that time does march on, how he'd take whatever money he had left and re-sign Eovaldi and give Sale the extension as early as he did when his health was questionable, well if you want to keep Mookie how does that make sense? And yet you pin that on Bloom as if he had created the circumstances that necessitated a trade, which I don't understand at all. Did he think he had an unlimited budget and that's how he was going to compete beyond 2018? The Sox were painted into a corner that unless they spent big $ to plug holes they couldn't because DD didn't have any farm system left, and he wasn't doing these small moves like Bloom did today to possibly be able to plug a hole down the road. I would guess he really didn't have the blessing of the FO, but they probably said, we'll sign off on it, but if this doesn't work again, your job is on the line. And of course these decisions impacted what happened with Mookie. Bloom recognized that the team was in bad shape, that talent wouldn't be coming up to support a pitching staff that went kaput after being great in 2018. There was no new wave of talent. So you're telling me if the Sox aren't instant champions in 2021 or 2022 or even 2023 that Bloom's job is in serious jeopardy. I don't agree with that. Yes, they can't suck for that long, but say they're showing steady progress, will anybody really care that much if the team then blossoms into a serious contender for the championship over an 8 - 10 year period? Bloom is trying to position them for that long-term without doing anything in the short-term that would jeopardize. He's trying to make them reasonably competitive but as Sam Kennedy admitted - they're not all in. Why should they be? Look at the White Sox core for example. Then look at the Red Sox core. Tell me which one would you like to have right now and for the near future? But the White Sox weren't built overnight, were they? It takes time. The other thing that I get the impression of is that you expect that if they build some uberteam that it makes them a slam dunk to win the Series. I mean, it's better to have a world of talent and it can work. We've seen the 2020 Dodgers win, the 2018 Sox, the 2016 Cubs, the 1998 Yankees, etc, but we've also seen a lot of teams that looked the best - fall short. As it was, the Sox were on the cusp of winning 4 championships last century that they didn't win. Winning a series is precarious. The best course of action is to set your team up to be knocking on the door every season. They might not win, but their chances each season are better. I mean say you have a 30% chance for each of five years, would you prefer that or if the Sox up that chance to 45% one year but borrow 5% off the following three years? Not a perfect analogy, but I think it's kind of fluky the way the Sox have won the Series. I think it's a lot harder than they made it look. And they made it look all the more harder during their 85 year drought. I almost feel like the success of this century is almost an evening out of what can be considered bad luck. While the goal is to win multiple championships, the mandate Bloom has is to build a sustainable franchise that has a great shot every year and doesn't have to materially sell out some other years to increase the odds in a given year. The idea is that any of a line of years can be "The Year" as opposed to a particular year has to be "The Year" or else. I don't think GMs can build teams to win the World Series as much as they can build teams to get to the post-season to compete for them. I'm not going to go full Billy Beane here, but there is definitely an element of luck in a short series. I don't see necessarily how a GM builds for that. A full season, I can definitely see how a GM builds for that.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Feb 17, 2021 23:37:04 GMT -5
This is honestly one of my favorite Bloom era trades. It feels like the type of trade you pull in a video game, trading guys you were cutting anyways for prospects. The type of trade you would just never see in the Dombrowski era, in part because Dombrowski never would have accumulated excess depth guys like this in the first place. This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? Lol, Manfred always wakes up in the wrong side of the bed....always sour and pessimistic. I have started skipping his posts.
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Post by manfred on Feb 18, 2021 0:12:53 GMT -5
This is one of your favorite trades? Org. guys all around? I am afraid I am confused by the mise-en-abyme of it all: Bloom is a genius because of his Rays training, so he has mastered the art of sending guys we know are not valuable to chumps who don’t. Bbuuuuutttt.... this is to the RAYS, masters of knowing which prospects will bust and wizards of finding low hanging fruit. To believe Bloom has won, we must trust his Rays training; if he has won, then the Rays lose.... and then.... what... becomes.... of.... his... training??? Did O. Henry write this story? Lol, Manfred always wakes up in the wrong side of the bed....always sour and pessimistic. I have started skipping his posts. You will miss all the wisdom, insight, laughter, tears, poesy, and, yes, in the end... love.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Feb 18, 2021 7:19:05 GMT -5
I had Mazza and Springs easily ahead of Brewer and especially Walden in the who-might-you-keep? discussion. The Springs DFA ahead of those two actually surprised me, so that this was a planned trade makes sense.
The trade makes sense for both sides if the Rays believe that Hernandez is ultimately just not a catcher, and if Bloom thinks he might be. It's also possible that Bloom is higher on the bat than his former associates.
Meanwhile, Mazza was the #7 guy on the starting pitching depth chart, meaning they're two injuries away from having Who Knows as the #5 starter instead. Someone's going to get stretched out in ST, even if ultimately to be a bulk guy in that scenario. Andriese seems very likely.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 18, 2021 8:55:56 GMT -5
I had Mazza and Springs easily ahead of Brewer and especially Walden in the who-might-you-keep? discussion. The Springs DFA ahead of those two actually surprised me, so that this was a planned trade makes sense. The trade makes sense for both sides if the Rays believe that Hernandez is ultimately just not a catcher, and if Bloom thinks he might be. It's also possible that Bloom is higher on the bat than his former associates. Meanwhile, Mazza was the #7 guy on the starting pitching depth chart, meaning they're two injuries away from having Who Knows as the #5 starter instead. Someone's going to get stretched out in ST, even if ultimately to be a bulk guy in that scenario. Andriese seems very likely.
It's a stretch, haha, but pretend Richards and Eovaldi are out with injuries, then your rotation looks like 1) Erod, 2) Perez, 3) Pivetta, 4) Andriese, and 5) Whitlock. So if they get two injuries they'll have pitchers that can start. And if there's a third one, then you can call up Houck to start. I really don't think that Mazza was the #7 guy on the starting pitching depth. I believe it's Whitlock, if not Andriese, whichever one you want to annoint as #6 and #7. I do agree with your reasoning for the trade from both of Tampa's and Boston's standpoint. I think you're right, that if Tampa truly sees Herndandez as a catcher then they probably don't make the trade. The Sox have the one thing that can truly help that Tampa doesn't, and that's the wisdom of Jason Varitek to mold. I'd guess he's partially in his role for that reason. Even if it doesn't work out, it's certainly a worthwhile move for the Red Sox. I'm sure Bloom will have no problem replacing Mazza and Springs. I would anticipate a Heller or Roe signing any day.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 18, 2021 11:45:56 GMT -5
I had Mazza and Springs easily ahead of Brewer and especially Walden in the who-might-you-keep? discussion. The Springs DFA ahead of those two actually surprised me, so that this was a planned trade makes sense. The trade makes sense for both sides if the Rays believe that Hernandez is ultimately just not a catcher, and if Bloom thinks he might be. It's also possible that Bloom is higher on the bat than his former associates. Meanwhile, Mazza was the #7 guy on the starting pitching depth chart, meaning they're two injuries away from having Who Knows as the #5 starter instead. Someone's going to get stretched out in ST, even if ultimately to be a bulk guy in that scenario. Andriese seems very likely.
It's a stretch, haha, but pretend Richards and Eovaldi are out with injuries, then your rotation looks like 1) Erod, 2) Perez, 3) Pivetta, 4) Andriese, and 5) Whitlock. So if they get two injuries they'll have pitchers that can start. And if there's a third one, then you can call up Houck to start. I really don't think that Mazza was the #7 guy on the starting pitching depth. I believe it's Whitlock, if not Andriese, whichever one you want to annoint as #6 and #7. I do agree with your reasoning for the trade from both of Tampa's and Boston's standpoint. I think you're right, that if Tampa truly sees Herndandez as a catcher then they probably don't make the trade. The Sox have the one thing that can truly help that Tampa doesn't, and that's the wisdom of Jason Varitek to mold. I'd guess he's partially in his role for that reason. Even if it doesn't work out, it's certainly a worthwhile move for the Red Sox. I'm sure Bloom will have no problem replacing Mazza and Springs. I would anticipate a Heller or Roe signing any day. Yes indeed. If the biggest cost of this trade is that we had to "downgrade" our #7 starter from Mazza to Andriese/Whitlock then I think that goes to show what a good trade it was.
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Post by dyoungteach on Feb 18, 2021 11:56:40 GMT -5
I was both shocked and pleasantly pleased by this trade. I’ve seen our new catching prospect in person several times. Him and brujan and McKay were on the same low a team. His manager was talking to me before the game and told me to watch for him. He was the best player on team followed by Brujan. ( this came from manager when McKay was a big deal) and neither brujan or him were remotely on the national scene. Then I watched him over 6 games and at all star game. He has massive power and just hits. Color me excited to see him and “the monster” to become really good friends even if he’s our dh.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 18, 2021 12:03:48 GMT -5
It's a stretch, haha, but pretend Richards and Eovaldi are out with injuries, then your rotation looks like 1) Erod, 2) Perez, 3) Pivetta, 4) Andriese, and 5) Whitlock. So if they get two injuries they'll have pitchers that can start. And if there's a third one, then you can call up Houck to start. I really don't think that Mazza was the #7 guy on the starting pitching depth. I believe it's Whitlock, if not Andriese, whichever one you want to annoint as #6 and #7. I do agree with your reasoning for the trade from both of Tampa's and Boston's standpoint. I think you're right, that if Tampa truly sees Herndandez as a catcher then they probably don't make the trade. The Sox have the one thing that can truly help that Tampa doesn't, and that's the wisdom of Jason Varitek to mold. I'd guess he's partially in his role for that reason. Even if it doesn't work out, it's certainly a worthwhile move for the Red Sox. I'm sure Bloom will have no problem replacing Mazza and Springs. I would anticipate a Heller or Roe signing any day. Yes indeed. If the biggest cost of this trade is that we had to "downgrade" our #7 starter from Mazza to Andriese/Whitlock then I think that goes to show what a good trade it was. And the thing is that I doubt the Sox even look at it as a "downgrade". After all, they had already made the decision to let Mazza go. They had already decided that Andriese and Whitlock were going to be the Johnson/Velazquez of the pitching staff. At best Mazza was #8 if they wanted Houck to stay in the minors longer, but I doubt the Sox would have an issue calling Houck up for a spot start if necessary, so that's your #8 starter at this point. So basically for somebody they decided to let go plus another unnecessary pitcher in Springs who they also decided to let go, the Sox got a potential prospect for a position of need. On the downside, this trade doesn't hurt and amounts to nothing. On the upside, this could be one of Bloom's best trades - I mean really up there.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 18, 2021 12:37:19 GMT -5
Yes indeed. If the biggest cost of this trade is that we had to "downgrade" our #7 starter from Mazza to Andriese/Whitlock then I think that goes to show what a good trade it was. And the thing is that I doubt the Sox even look at it as a "downgrade". After all, they had already made the decision to let Mazza go. They had already decided that Andriese and Whitlock were going to be the Johnson/Velazquez of the pitching staff. At best Mazza was #8 if they wanted Houck to stay in the minors longer, but I doubt the Sox would have an issue calling Houck up for a spot start if necessary, so that's your #8 starter at this point. So basically for somebody they decided to let go plus another unnecessary pitcher in Springs who they also decided to let go, the Sox got a potential prospect for a position of need. On the downside, this trade doesn't hurt and amounts to nothing. On the upside, this could be one of Bloom's best trades - I mean really up there. Another way to look at this is that by signing Andriese they were able to acquire Hernandez. That's an even better deal than the Ottavino/German maneuver...
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Post by ramireja on Feb 18, 2021 12:41:36 GMT -5
Regarding the #7 starter talk....that doesn't even take into account that by June/July, there may be optimism that Mata and/or Seabold would surpass Mazza on the depth chart. We also have Daniel Gossett, Ryan Weber, and Kyle Hart too.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 18, 2021 13:13:04 GMT -5
Regarding the #7 starter talk....that doesn't even take into account that by June/July, there may be optimism that Mata and/or Seabold would surpass Mazza on the depth chart. We also have Daniel Gossett, Ryan Weber, and Kyle Hart too. Yes but minus Hart plz I think Seabold is in the rotation by years end
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Post by manfred on Feb 18, 2021 13:19:24 GMT -5
Regarding the #7 starter talk....that doesn't even take into account that by June/July, there may be optimism that Mata and/or Seabold would surpass Mazza on the depth chart. We also have Daniel Gossett, Ryan Weber, and Kyle Hart too. If we let JBJ — a GAMECOCK — go, and then Gossett.... of the generically named Clemson “Tigers” (commonly found in the Upstate, guys?) starts... ye gods... it is too far. I will definitely get the vapors. A Chanticleer I can welcome. A CofC Cougar, I will endure. But Clemson.... by god.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Feb 18, 2021 13:20:57 GMT -5
Regarding the #7 starter talk....that doesn't even take into account that by June/July, there may be optimism that Mata and/or Seabold would surpass Mazza on the depth chart. We also have Daniel Gossett, Ryan Weber, and Kyle Hart too. And Sale moving everyone down a spot.
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Post by tyler3 on Feb 18, 2021 14:10:38 GMT -5
The thing about Hernandez..there is a way to look at this where one side didn’t rip off the other. The Rays have always heavily skewed towards defensive catchers more so then I think anyone. Hernandez just wasn’t their type of catching prospect. And as many pointed out if you look at the Fenway overlays his pull side power might just be a perfect match giving him the extra homers and wall ball singles that make the defensive setbacks worth it. Add in the possible electronic strike zone, just makes him more valuable. All this to say, given team preference and home ball park, this guy just might be a more valuable prospect in Boston as opposed to Tampa.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 18, 2021 14:25:21 GMT -5
The thing about Hernandez..there is a way to look at this where one side didn’t rip off the other. The Rays have always heavily skewed towards defensive catchers more so then I think anyone. Hernandez just wasn’t their type of catching prospect. And as many pointed out if you look at the Fenway overlays his pull side power might just be a perfect match giving him the extra homers and wall ball singles that make the defensive setbacks worth it. Add in the possible electronic strike zone, just makes him more valuable. All this to say, given team preference and home ball park, this guy just might be a more valuable prospect in Boston as opposed to Tampa. Simply put both teams value what they received more than what they gave up. The Rays see Springs as the key to the deal. They see a guy with a very high K rate who should be a lot better than he is and they know with Jalen Beeks being on the 60 day DL, they need a bulk guy and they see Mazza as somebody who can succeed in that role. They acquired Mejias in the Snell deal and they also got another catching prospect in that deal, Blake Hunter, who they regard higher than Ronaldo Hernandez, so they felt Hernandez was expendable. I think that's their view. From the Sox perspective, well that's pretty obvious, so Hernandez is more valuable to the Sox than he is to the Rays while Springs and Mazza have more value for the Rays than the Sox. That said, if I look at it from neither side, I'd say the Sox are more likely to have done well in that trade if both teams got their way as a starting catcher who can hit is more valuable than two veteran middle relievers. But I doubt the Rays were trying to win the trade. Just moving somebody who wasn't that valuable for them (I think they were in a roster crunch too) for two pitchers they felt they could improve, use, and lean quite heavily on. Sometimes it isn't about winning the trade. That said, I think the Sox have more to gain than TB in this deal and certainly less to lose.
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Post by chrisfromnc on Feb 18, 2021 15:05:41 GMT -5
If we let JBJ — a GAMECOCK — go, and then Gossett.... of the generically named Clemson “Tigers” (commonly found in the Upstate, guys?) starts... ye gods... it is too far. I will definitely get the vapors. A Chanticleer I can welcome. A CofC Cougar, I will endure. But Clemson.... by god. Careful. I’ve got a son who is a proudly in his junior year as a Clemson Tiger. My other son is an Auburn Tiger. You might have a point in that neither SC or Alabama have significant native populations of tigers (let’s try zero). Are there lots of cock fights in Columbia? Probably. I’ve lived in Charleston and will likely soon retire there. Not sure we have a bunch of native cougars there either.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 18, 2021 18:29:13 GMT -5
Just to get everybody on the same page, this quote from Fangraphs which led off the discussion about Hernandez: is misinformed. The stuff further down that first page, from Keith Law is on target: It's 13.7% and that's outstanding. Whatever the flaws are - the approach at the plate, and the mechanics of catching apparently - he does make contact.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Feb 18, 2021 20:21:00 GMT -5
Chaim Bloom is literally the anti Dombrowski and I am now down to watch the Red Sox again I liked Dombrowski's 2018 team, a lot.
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