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5/4-5/6 Red Sox vs. Tigers Series Thread
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Post by incandenza on May 6, 2021 14:17:58 GMT -5
Yeah, E-Rod and Eovaldi are good solid pitchers, but let's face it, they don't have Clemens or Martinez or healthy Sale leading the staff. They're going to have some rough outings. And yes, it's nauseating seeing them struggle against Detroit, but then when I can step back, I realize that this team is really just a bridge team anyways. They're not build to win this year or next year either. It's the second half of this decade they're building toward, so expecting greatness or a miracle is kind of silly. They are what they are. Enjoy the fact that the games have been competitive and they can win half of them. Losing hurts more when you're supposed to be good. No team with Marwin, Kiké, Renfroe, and Franchy and whoever is at 1b (Dalbec for now) is going to be good. No staff with E-Rod and Eovaldi as your only constants are going to be good enough.....it is what it is. What's been amazing is that pretty much all of the other teams have been so-so. A lot of parity. Even the Dodgers haven't set the world on fire. I love the bridge talk for 2 years from now. I mean, when JDM is 35, 36 years old? Sale is 34? Devers and X are in the middle of their $200 million contracts? CVaz is 32, 33 years old? Or when the future stars in the minors are up, like the front-line starter.... er.... I mean, what is the scenario that has the Sox in *better* shape in 2024 than now? Even granting upside to prospects you have an all star in Casas, a decent player in Downs, a good player in Duran... but it ain’t Betts, Boegarts, Devers etc. or Rice, Lynn et al. Well you guys are being super depressing.
The Red Sox are in first place and have the second best record in the AL. But somehow they have the essence of a .500 team. Did the 9-game winning streak just not count? What would you all be saying if you were White Sox or Astros or god forbid Yankees fans?
I am on record as disapproving of the bridge metaphor, but the thing about 2024 is that they'll have a bunch more money to spend with Pedroia and Price and others off the books, so you don't know anything about what the team will look like by then. I mean, take (re-signed/extended) Devers/Bogaerts/Verdugo, a couple current prospects, add an all-star free agent outfielder and a top starter, plus some smart Bloomian additions like Whitlock and Seabold, and of course the team could be good in 2024. It's the Boston Damn Red Sox, and I don't understand this defeatist attitude.
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Post by soxfaninnj on May 6, 2021 14:18:36 GMT -5
How bout a bit here dalbec
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Post by wildsox on May 6, 2021 14:20:34 GMT -5
We certainly like swinging at the bad pitches and looking at the good ones
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Post by Addam603 on May 6, 2021 14:21:31 GMT -5
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Post by manfred on May 6, 2021 14:24:56 GMT -5
Yikes. That’s low-key worse than Franchy.
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Post by Guidas on May 6, 2021 14:25:03 GMT -5
Yeah, E-Rod and Eovaldi are good solid pitchers, but let's face it, they don't have Clemens or Martinez or healthy Sale leading the staff. They're going to have some rough outings. And yes, it's nauseating seeing them struggle against Detroit, but then when I can step back, I realize that this team is really just a bridge team anyways. They're not build to win this year or next year either. It's the second half of this decade they're building toward, so expecting greatness or a miracle is kind of silly. They are what they are. Enjoy the fact that the games have been competitive and they can win half of them. Losing hurts more when you're supposed to be good. No team with Marwin, Kiké, Renfroe, and Franchy and whoever is at 1b (Dalbec for now) is going to be good. No staff with E-Rod and Eovaldi as your only constants are going to be good enough.....it is what it is. What's been amazing is that pretty much all of the other teams have been so-so. A lot of parity. Even the Dodgers haven't set the world on fire. I love the bridge talk for 2 years from now. I mean, when JDM is 35, 36 years old? Sale is 34? Devers and X are in the middle of their $200 million contracts? CVaz is 32, 33 years old? Or when the future stars in the minors are up, like the front-line starter.... er.... I mean, what is the scenario that has the Sox in *better* shape in 2024 than now? Even granting upside to prospects you have an all star in Casas, a decent player in Downs, a good player in Duran... but it ain’t Betts, Boegarts, Devers etc. or Rice, Lynn et al. THIS was exactly why I was pleading for Springer all winter. Maximize the core now AND provide a replacement for JDM as Springer transitioned to LF. You'd had four high OBP bashers on the team, and still have three, three years from now. And as much as I love the potential of Downs, Duran and Casas, not only are there no guarantees, but even sunny projections have two of those guys as MLB ave players. Anyway, rocks under the bridge and all that.
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Post by manfred on May 6, 2021 14:26:40 GMT -5
I love the bridge talk for 2 years from now. I mean, when JDM is 35, 36 years old? Sale is 34? Devers and X are in the middle of their $200 million contracts? CVaz is 32, 33 years old? Or when the future stars in the minors are up, like the front-line starter.... er.... I mean, what is the scenario that has the Sox in *better* shape in 2024 than now? Even granting upside to prospects you have an all star in Casas, a decent player in Downs, a good player in Duran... but it ain’t Betts, Boegarts, Devers etc. or Rice, Lynn et al. THIS was exactly why I was pleading for Springer all winter. Maximize the core now AND provide a replacement for JDM as Springer transitioned to LF. You'd had four high OBP bashers on the team, and still have three, three years from now. And as much as I love the potential of Downs, Duran and Casas, not only are there no guarantees, but even sunny projections have two of those guys as MLB ave players. Anyway, rocks under the bridge and all that. I wasn’t for Springer, bit I admit I under estimated this year’s pitching. But I’ve said all along I’d be all in for next year, including signing older guys.
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Post by wildsox on May 6, 2021 14:26:57 GMT -5
As bad as Bobby D, Franchy etc. have been we still have been putting up 5+ runs a game. These are games we shouldn’t be losing but the Offense isn’t the issue.
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Post by dyoungteach on May 6, 2021 14:27:14 GMT -5
I disagree. Florida bought a championship and he left. They were in shambles after he left. And tigers owner wanted to win but had the gm also paid for prospects ( which when he was gm he could have done) he could have done both. There wasn’t a mandate on how much he spent or didn’t spend in minors. ( again old system. He could have bought minor league players). Dombrowski has his eyes on one prize. Winning. He doesn’t look at next year or 2 years away. ( he’s been quoted on that when he made the sale trade). He absolutely could have done both. They would have spent ( because the owner did with the other team he owned at that time). Look you can come up with whatever excuse you want. Claim whatever. But after he won with Marlins he had a .333 winning percentage. And it took them years to rebuild. After he was fired from Detroit. It’s taken them years to get back. After he won with Red Sox they were horrible after. I don’t care whatever excuse or “reason” you want to use. The last 3 teams he has been gm. When he’s left they were a BAD team needing a rebuild. Congrats on winning. He did it. But when he left it was horrendous don’t believe it. Check out the winning percentages after he left. The year after. That’s the facts. Ok....I will do. I've already agreed that they milked that Detroit Tigers cow until there was nothing left. I do wonder what tools he was given in Detroit. I remember when he came to Boston he talked about beefing up analytics, something he didn't have much of in Detroit, so I don't know if that's his fault or owndership's. But either way let's explore the "shambles" he left the Expos in and the "shambles" he left the Marlins in. 1992, the year after he left the Expos with largely the same team he left Dan Duquette went from 71-90 to 87-75, but it also ignores the fact that the farm system was percolating when he left, and by 1994 the Expos were the best team in baseball. You can't tell me that the Expos farm system was developed in 1992 and graduated in 1994. It started before 1992 when Dombrowski was still running things. Let's look at 2001, the final year of the Marlins under Dombrowski. They were 76-86. The following year with about the same team they were 79-83. The team hadn't changed much either between him and his successor. The reason why? Because the team had a young core that was improving. That young core was provided by Dombrowski. When the Marlins won the Series in 1997 he was ordered to strip that club so he did, but he did in a way where even though they dropped to 54-108 in 1998, Dombrowski traded those 1997 star players for youngsters who eventually came to the Marlins and formed the young core that lead to their 2003 World Championship, so if you think that leaving a franchise with a young core on the way up is "being left in shambles", then I would tell you Ben Cherington left the Red Sox and Dave Dombrowski "in shambles" in 2015 - which he clearly didn't. And if you don't think so, go ahead and look at the Marlins roster in 2001 and compare it to 2003 and you'll see the pieces were largely in place with the difference being that the Marlins reached maturity in 2003, maturity they hadn't experienced yet in 2001. That is not my definition of being left in shambles. They were a below .500 team when he left. On his watch the team dropped to below .500. With tigers team dropped to one of worst in mlb. With Red Sox team dropped to one of worst in mlb. His mo. He goes all on. Wins. Then is forced to strip down and build ALL the way back up using minor leaguers and including the minor league system. He traded for many in Miami. Are you saying he will have a sustainable team in Philadelphia? Anyways he’s gone and I’m for one happy. I like the gm that protects the team for 10 years and not just 1-2.
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Post by manfred on May 6, 2021 14:30:16 GMT -5
Ok....I will do. I've already agreed that they milked that Detroit Tigers cow until there was nothing left. I do wonder what tools he was given in Detroit. I remember when he came to Boston he talked about beefing up analytics, something he didn't have much of in Detroit, so I don't know if that's his fault or owndership's. But either way let's explore the "shambles" he left the Expos in and the "shambles" he left the Marlins in. 1992, the year after he left the Expos with largely the same team he left Dan Duquette went from 71-90 to 87-75, but it also ignores the fact that the farm system was percolating when he left, and by 1994 the Expos were the best team in baseball. You can't tell me that the Expos farm system was developed in 1992 and graduated in 1994. It started before 1992 when Dombrowski was still running things. Let's look at 2001, the final year of the Marlins under Dombrowski. They were 76-86. The following year with about the same team they were 79-83. The team hadn't changed much either between him and his successor. The reason why? Because the team had a young core that was improving. That young core was provided by Dombrowski. When the Marlins won the Series in 1997 he was ordered to strip that club so he did, but he did in a way where even though they dropped to 54-108 in 1998, Dombrowski traded those 1997 star players for youngsters who eventually came to the Marlins and formed the young core that lead to their 2003 World Championship, so if you think that leaving a franchise with a young core on the way up is "being left in shambles", then I would tell you Ben Cherington left the Red Sox and Dave Dombrowski "in shambles" in 2015 - which he clearly didn't. And if you don't think so, go ahead and look at the Marlins roster in 2001 and compare it to 2003 and you'll see the pieces were largely in place with the difference being that the Marlins reached maturity in 2003, maturity they hadn't experienced yet in 2001. That is not my definition of being left in shambles. They were a below .500 team when he left. On his watch the team dropped to below .500. With tigers team dropped to one of worst in mlb. With Red Sox team dropped to one of worst in mlb. His mo. He goes all on. Wins. Then is forced to strip down and build ALL the way back up using minor leaguers and including the minor league system. He traded for many in Miami. Are you saying he will have a sustainable team in Philadelphia? Anyways he’s gone and I’m for one happy. I like the gm that protects the team for 10 years and not just 1-2. I didn’t look, but.... how many teams go 10 years without dropping below .500? I guess I feel like there are natural lifecycles that are hard to escape.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 6, 2021 14:41:16 GMT -5
Ok....I will do. I've already agreed that they milked that Detroit Tigers cow until there was nothing left. I do wonder what tools he was given in Detroit. I remember when he came to Boston he talked about beefing up analytics, something he didn't have much of in Detroit, so I don't know if that's his fault or owndership's. But either way let's explore the "shambles" he left the Expos in and the "shambles" he left the Marlins in. 1992, the year after he left the Expos with largely the same team he left Dan Duquette went from 71-90 to 87-75, but it also ignores the fact that the farm system was percolating when he left, and by 1994 the Expos were the best team in baseball. You can't tell me that the Expos farm system was developed in 1992 and graduated in 1994. It started before 1992 when Dombrowski was still running things. Let's look at 2001, the final year of the Marlins under Dombrowski. They were 76-86. The following year with about the same team they were 79-83. The team hadn't changed much either between him and his successor. The reason why? Because the team had a young core that was improving. That young core was provided by Dombrowski. When the Marlins won the Series in 1997 he was ordered to strip that club so he did, but he did in a way where even though they dropped to 54-108 in 1998, Dombrowski traded those 1997 star players for youngsters who eventually came to the Marlins and formed the young core that lead to their 2003 World Championship, so if you think that leaving a franchise with a young core on the way up is "being left in shambles", then I would tell you Ben Cherington left the Red Sox and Dave Dombrowski "in shambles" in 2015 - which he clearly didn't. And if you don't think so, go ahead and look at the Marlins roster in 2001 and compare it to 2003 and you'll see the pieces were largely in place with the difference being that the Marlins reached maturity in 2003, maturity they hadn't experienced yet in 2001. That is not my definition of being left in shambles. They were a below .500 team when he left. On his watch the team dropped to below .500. With tigers team dropped to one of worst in mlb. With Red Sox team dropped to one of worst in mlb. His mo. He goes all on. Wins. Then is forced to strip down and build ALL the way back up using minor leaguers and including the minor league system. He traded for many in Miami. Are you saying he will have a sustainable team in Philadelphia? Anyways he’s gone and I’m for one happy. I like the gm that protects the team for 10 years and not just 1-2. Why is it his fault that Huizenga ordered to strip down the 97 Marlins after they won? I didn't say he will have a sustainable team in Philly. I never discussed Philly or paid much attention to his current situation. I'm pushing back against your statement that he left franchises in shambles. He did NOT leave the Marlins or Expos in shambles. And as far as a GM who protects a team for 10 years....well how do you feel about the time period of 2006 - 2014 for the Tigers? That's a 9 year stretch where they were the class of the AL Central. That's not a 1 - 2 year thing. That's almost a decade. Dombrowski certainly has his weaknesses and his all in approach can wreak havoc a bit, but he's usually made up for it by displaying good judgment of which prospects to part with and which ones to keep (and yes Randy Johnson and Eugenio Suarez are his two worst players who got away). As much as the Sox are mediocre now, if you told me they'd have a bunch of 90 win seasons where they didn't win versus the 2018 season (on the heels of the 2016 and 2017 division titles) where they dominated the league and won the Series, I'd take the latter. It's true. Flags really do fly forever. You can get caught up in the inertia of now, now, now, but 2018 is a memory I'll always have and be thankful for. Note that while I think he's been a good GM, I'm fine with him being replaced. But the fact of the matter is that Bloom can do everything right, have them win 90 games for a 10 year stretch and still come up empty where it matters the most - or basically be the Yankees of this past decade. If that happens, we'll appreciate what a good GM he was but have no memories to savor of the ultimate victory. Don't know how far back your fandom stretches, but mine goes well into last century. As the 1986 World Series painfully reminded me, franchises can go decades (or in the Cubs' case, even centuries) before they win, so what Dombrowski was able to contribute to in 2018 was special. He had a great core from Theo and Cherington and supplemented it well enough to create the Red Sox team that was the most successful in their history (with the possible exception of the 1912 and 1915 squads). That is not nothing.
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Post by James Dunne on May 6, 2021 14:42:01 GMT -5
As bad as Bobby D, Franchy etc. have been we still have been putting up 5+ runs a game. These are games we shouldn’t be losing but the Offense isn’t the issue. I mean, if you're losing 6-5 and there are two guys in your lineup that are automatic outs, then yes that's part of the issue. Dalbec is better than this, but this is sort of what we were all talking about for the last few years with taking the slumps with the hot streaks. We're really not to the point in the season where bWAR is particularly meaningful, but he entered today tied with Eugenio Suarez for worst in the majors. www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2021-value-batting.shtml#players_value_batting::15
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Post by manfred on May 6, 2021 14:42:56 GMT -5
Well you guys are being super depressing.
Manfred gona Manfred I think I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t being negative, exactly. My point is the current core is awesome. Why not go in and try to win? As for 2024, there is no reason they can’t be great... but my point was it isn’t like they have a Tatis a year out in Worcester or something. The “bridge” right now means signing disposable players and getting minor league depth... but the bridge TO part is still very much TBA. So I’m actually being positive in the sense that if they commit to this core, I don’t see why they couldn’t win this year or certainly next. But it would require a bit of a course correction.
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Post by soxfaninnj on May 6, 2021 14:49:45 GMT -5
Let’s go!!!
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Post by dyoungteach on May 6, 2021 14:49:51 GMT -5
Yeah, E-Rod and Eovaldi are good solid pitchers, but let's face it, they don't have Clemens or Martinez or healthy Sale leading the staff. They're going to have some rough outings. And yes, it's nauseating seeing them struggle against Detroit, but then when I can step back, I realize that this team is really just a bridge team anyways. They're not build to win this year or next year either. It's the second half of this decade they're building toward, so expecting greatness or a miracle is kind of silly. They are what they are. Enjoy the fact that the games have been competitive and they can win half of them. Losing hurts more when you're supposed to be good. No team with Marwin, Kiké, Renfroe, and Franchy and whoever is at 1b (Dalbec for now) is going to be good. No staff with E-Rod and Eovaldi as your only constants are going to be good enough.....it is what it is. What's been amazing is that pretty much all of the other teams have been so-so. A lot of parity. Even the Dodgers haven't set the world on fire. I love the bridge talk for 2 years from now. I mean, when JDM is 35, 36 years old? Sale is 34? Devers and X are in the middle of their $200 million contracts? CVaz is 32, 33 years old? Or when the future stars in the minors are up, like the front-line starter.... er.... I mean, what is the scenario that has the Sox in *better* shape in 2024 than now? Even granting upside to prospects you have an all star in Casas, a decent player in Downs, a good player in Duran... but it ain’t Betts, Boegarts, Devers etc. or Rice, Lynn et al. I’m sorry you wanted the dombrowski style team. Probably on the next team that’s World Series contenders won’t have sale at his prime, jd on the team, and I’m betting Vazquez in his prime or Xander on the team. You have zero clue if anyone is the next star. Devers is what 25? He will still be in prime. I guess rather than me saying your constant knocking of bloom is crazy I’ll ask sir gm manfred. What would you do? I’ll be excited to read this post. Please make sure you indicate exact players you would acquire within the needs of the payroll. Excited to read..
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Post by Guidas on May 6, 2021 14:50:15 GMT -5
Sweet! Need (a lot) more!
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Post by manfred on May 6, 2021 14:50:22 GMT -5
I’d have walked Devers. Tie game, but you are through the middle. This would be my strategy: walk JDM, X, Devers every at bat. Risk it.
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Post by soxfaninnj on May 6, 2021 14:50:35 GMT -5
Manfred gona Manfred I think I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t being negative, exactly. My point is the current core is awesome. Why not go in and try to win? As for 2024, there is no reason they can’t be great... but my point was it isn’t like they have a Tatis a year out in Worcester or something. The “bridge” right now means signing disposable players and getting minor league depth... but the bridge TO part is still very much TBA. So I’m actually being positive in the sense that if they commit to this core, I don’t see why they couldn’t win this year or certainly next. But it would require a bit of a course correction. That was funny, even you gotta admit that. Lol
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 6, 2021 14:51:54 GMT -5
Taking the cheese since they took the lead, but now that Devers got on, do they score again? Probably not.
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Post by 75tillnow on May 6, 2021 14:52:57 GMT -5
The good news is that the Tigers have proven that they are horrific in almost every facet of the game. The bad news is that this game and the series are still in doubt. Guess thats baseyball (now to find where I put my Pepto-Bismol.....)
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Post by incandenza on May 6, 2021 14:53:15 GMT -5
Manfred gona Manfred I think I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t being negative, exactly. My point is the current core is awesome. Why not go in and try to win? As for 2024, there is no reason they can’t be great... but my point was it isn’t like they have a Tatis a year out in Worcester or something. The “bridge” right now means signing disposable players and getting minor league depth... but the bridge TO part is still very much TBA. So I’m actually being positive in the sense that if they commit to this core, I don’t see why they couldn’t win this year or certainly next. But it would require a bit of a course correction. Well if people (not necessarily you) would stop imposing this "bridge" metaphor on Bloom (who has never used it as far as I know) and just acknowledge that he has tried to make the team as good as possible this season without sacrificing the future then I think we could avoid some of these misconceptions.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 6, 2021 14:54:24 GMT -5
The good news is that the Tigers have proven that they are horrific in almost every facet of the game. The bad news is that this game and the series are still in doubt. Guess thats baseyball (now to find where I put my Pepto-Bismol.....) Doesn't matter how you get a series win, just get a series win. This has not helped with bolstering faith and confidence one way or the other.
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Post by manfred on May 6, 2021 14:55:04 GMT -5
I love the bridge talk for 2 years from now. I mean, when JDM is 35, 36 years old? Sale is 34? Devers and X are in the middle of their $200 million contracts? CVaz is 32, 33 years old? Or when the future stars in the minors are up, like the front-line starter.... er.... I mean, what is the scenario that has the Sox in *better* shape in 2024 than now? Even granting upside to prospects you have an all star in Casas, a decent player in Downs, a good player in Duran... but it ain’t Betts, Boegarts, Devers etc. or Rice, Lynn et al. I’m sorry you wanted the dombrowski style team. Probably on the next team that’s World Series contenders won’t have sale at his prime, jd on the team, and I’m betting Vazquez in his prime or Xander on the team. You have zero clue if anyone is the next star. Devers is what 25? He will still be in prime. I guess rather than me saying your constant knocking of bloom is crazy I’ll ask sir gm manfred. What would you do? I’ll be excited to read this post. Please make sure you indicate exact players you would acquire within the needs of the payroll. Excited to read.. I guess I wouldn’t want to go to Sale or JDM and say, sorry guys, we’re really playing for a title after you are toast. Yeah, Devers is 25, and I love him, and in my Dombrowski-esque way, I’ll be cool with the $250 million contract they end up having to give him. Put that with X’s contract, and you just peed away the Pedey savings or whatever. You seem very confident. What does that next team look like to you? It sounds like you are saying, well, it ain’t these guys, and I don’t know who it’ll be. That is a very long view.
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Post by 75tillnow on May 6, 2021 14:55:40 GMT -5
The good news is that the Tigers have proven that they are horrific in almost every facet of the game. The bad news is that this game and the series are still in doubt. Guess thats baseyball (now to find where I put my Pepto-Bismol.....) Doesn't matter how you get a series win, just get a series win. This has not helped with bolstering faith and confidence one way or the other. It also has not helped my ulcer!
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 6, 2021 14:55:43 GMT -5
Manfred gona Manfred I think I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t being negative, exactly. My point is the current core is awesome. Why not go in and try to win? As for 2024, there is no reason they can’t be great... but my point was it isn’t like they have a Tatis a year out in Worcester or something. The “bridge” right now means signing disposable players and getting minor league depth... but the bridge TO part is still very much TBA. So I’m actually being positive in the sense that if they commit to this core, I don’t see why they couldn’t win this year or certainly next. But it would require a bit of a course correction. Honestly Manfred, I didn't think the core would be good enough to win. I figured the Yankees would be playing at a 100 win pace. They may ultimately do so. I figured the Jays' core is as good if not better.....so basically I had the Red Sox around 79 wins. I did not anticipate the teams being bunched so closely together where you say, see, if you are willing to go above the luxury tax limit, you can win it all. I'm still not convinced it will work out that way. The Yankees are getting their act together. I think they'll find their way up to 95 - 100 wins and the Sox will be in the middle of the pack as anticipated on the fringe of the wild card race. I look at the core and see four good hitters and two good pitchers that are not Cy Young caliber type pitchers. It's nice, but I don't think this core is markedly better than the others in the league. I could be proven wrong in that judgment but that's why I think about a future core more than this one. Verdugo, Bogaerts, and Devers are young enough to be part of the next really good Red Sox team, although who knows if Devers and Bogaerts stick around? JDM is likely going to opt out this year. E-Rod is a good starter, a solid #2 behind a Cy Young contender type ace, which I don't consider him to be. He was really good in 2019 but he won 19 games because he got great run support. Really good pitcher. Don't know if he'll be around beyond this year, but I think they'll try to keep him. Sale is the guy with the capability of being a Cy Young contending ace although who knows if he'll get that back. I guess under normal circumstances I don't see how you don't blow away the luxury tax cap to compete, but maybe if parity continues, their decisions will be glaring, but if things spread out as anticipated? Then I'm looking at the next great Red Sox team, whether it's guys still around but as veterans, some of the kids in the system now, our #4 pick, trades Bloom makes to improve the farm....we'll see. I can be a patient man.
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