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5/4-5/6 Red Sox vs. Tigers Series Thread
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 5, 2021 11:28:25 GMT -5
Is it that Hernandez is being used less flexibly than he should or Arroyo though? Hernandez was brought in to be a full-time player and it seems clear that Cora's plan was to limit him to 2B and CF as it was to start the year. He's played more CF than they'd probably hoped but isn't that just as much because Arroyo has been good as that Cordero and Renfroe have been bad?
As I said in another thread, the premise that CF has been a black hole in the lineup is contrary to the truth that they've gotten good production from the position relative to the rest of MLB.
The problem with Muñoz is he's just getting healthy himself.
I wouldn't mind giving Chavis some run but (a) we've been there with him being the one on the other side of this discussion - is he really the answer? and (b) based on the discussions we were having last year, isn't the point to get him everyday at-bats... somewhere?
The answer probably lies in how the players at the ATS looked over the past month, and of course, we don't have full visibility there. I think we're at the point where DFA Brice, DFA Brennan, option Cordero, and call up two hitters might be in the offing.
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Post by manfred on May 5, 2021 11:39:52 GMT -5
Is it that Hernandez is being used less flexibly than he should or Arroyo though? Hernandez was brought in to be a full-time player and it seems clear that Cora's plan was to limit him to 2B and CF as it was to start the year. He's played more CF than they'd probably hoped but isn't that just as much because Arroyo has been good as that Cordero and Renfroe have been bad? As I said in another thread, the premise that CF has been a black hole in the lineup is contrary to the truth that they've gotten good production from the position relative to the rest of MLB. The problem with Muñoz is he's just getting healthy himself. I wouldn't mind giving Chavis some run but (a) we've been there with him being the one on the other side of this discussion - is he really the answer? and (b) based on the discussions we were having last year, isn't the point to get him everyday at-bats... somewhere? The answer probably lies in how the players at the ATS looked over the past month, and of course, we don't have full visibility there. I think we're at the point where DFA Brice, DFA Brennan, option Cordero, and call up two hitters might be in the offing. I like Kiké, and your point is taken about CF. But going back to the thread when they signed him, people stressed his utility as a huge factor in what made him a good get. At the time, I made the point that he’d end up simply as the centerfielder, so that was moot. And he has. And... I *factored* Arroyo, assuming he would be adequate (but not certainly as good as he had been). In other words, again, like with LF, if they had said “we have a secondbaseman,” they could have gone a different way and gotten a real CF (interestingly, though he seems fine by eye test, fangraphs, and savant have him as not a great fielder). I guess part of the question is... if this is a bridge to 2-3 years from now, what is the point of $14 million for Kiké in CF? He doesn’t really make the team much better now, his greatest value is being wasted, and he won’t be there when the prospects Bloom’s been hoarding are ready. I asked that this winter, and the answer was flexibility. But... this is actually not a very flexible team right now.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 5, 2021 12:01:09 GMT -5
Is it that Hernandez is being used less flexibly than he should or Arroyo though? Hernandez was brought in to be a full-time player and it seems clear that Cora's plan was to limit him to 2B and CF as it was to start the year. He's played more CF than they'd probably hoped but isn't that just as much because Arroyo has been good as that Cordero and Renfroe have been bad? As I said in another thread, the premise that CF has been a black hole in the lineup is contrary to the truth that they've gotten good production from the position relative to the rest of MLB. The problem with Muñoz is he's just getting healthy himself. I wouldn't mind giving Chavis some run but (a) we've been there with him being the one on the other side of this discussion - is he really the answer? and (b) based on the discussions we were having last year, isn't the point to get him everyday at-bats... somewhere? The answer probably lies in how the players at the ATS looked over the past month, and of course, we don't have full visibility there. I think we're at the point where DFA Brice, DFA Brennan, option Cordero, and call up two hitters might be in the offing. I like Kiké, and your point is taken about CF. But going back to the thread when they signed him, people stressed his utility as a huge factor in what made him a good get. At the time, I made the point that he’d end up simply as the centerfielder, so that was moot. And he has. And... I *factored* Arroyo, assuming he would be adequate (but not certainly as good as he had been). In other words, again, like with LF, if they had said “we have a secondbaseman,” they could have gone a different way and gotten a real CF (interestingly, though he seems fine by eye test, fangraphs, and savant have him as not a great fielder). I guess part of the question is... if this is a bridge to 2-3 years from now, what is the point of $14 million for Kiké in CF? He doesn’t really make the team much better now, his greatest value is being wasted, and he won’t be there when the prospects Bloom’s been hoarding are ready. I asked that this winter, and the answer was flexibility. But... this is actually not a very flexible team right now. .....the answer as with most of Bloom’s signings is that Hernandez can be flipped for prospects presuming that the Red Sox were an 80 win team. Every team in contention would want him because he could play everywhere. If we all keep that in mind then all the signings make sense! If Richards look good as he has the last two starts, the Sox get a premium prospect. If Renfroe is at 15 HRs by the deadline...then another “Phillies” trade for another Pivetta....
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 5, 2021 12:11:58 GMT -5
Is it that Hernandez is being used less flexibly than he should or Arroyo though? Hernandez was brought in to be a full-time player and it seems clear that Cora's plan was to limit him to 2B and CF as it was to start the year. He's played more CF than they'd probably hoped but isn't that just as much because Arroyo has been good as that Cordero and Renfroe have been bad? As I said in another thread, the premise that CF has been a black hole in the lineup is contrary to the truth that they've gotten good production from the position relative to the rest of MLB. The problem with Muñoz is he's just getting healthy himself. I wouldn't mind giving Chavis some run but (a) we've been there with him being the one on the other side of this discussion - is he really the answer? and (b) based on the discussions we were having last year, isn't the point to get him everyday at-bats... somewhere? The answer probably lies in how the players at the ATS looked over the past month, and of course, we don't have full visibility there. I think we're at the point where DFA Brice, DFA Brennan, option Cordero, and call up two hitters might be in the offing. I like Kiké, and your point is taken about CF. But going back to the thread when they signed him, people stressed his utility as a huge factor in what made him a good get. At the time, I made the point that he’d end up simply as the centerfielder, so that was moot. And he has. And... I *factored* Arroyo, assuming he would be adequate (but not certainly as good as he had been). In other words, again, like with LF, if they had said “we have a secondbaseman,” they could have gone a different way and gotten a real CF (interestingly, though he seems fine by eye test, fangraphs, and savant have him as not a great fielder). If this is a "Bridge" type of team, then isn't Hernandez a "Bridge" type of player (as far as playing every day goes)?
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 5, 2021 12:22:13 GMT -5
I like Kiké, and your point is taken about CF. But going back to the thread when they signed him, people stressed his utility as a huge factor in what made him a good get. At the time, I made the point that he’d end up simply as the centerfielder, so that was moot. And he has. And... I *factored* Arroyo, assuming he would be adequate (but not certainly as good as he had been). In other words, again, like with LF, if they had said “we have a secondbaseman,” they could have gone a different way and gotten a real CF (interestingly, though he seems fine by eye test, fangraphs, and savant have him as not a great fielder). If this is a "Bridge" type of team, then isn't Hernandez a "Bridge" type of player (as far as playing every day goes)? absolutely....or bench player on a championship team which the Red Sox were not presumed to be. “Flip bate”
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Post by Guidas on May 5, 2021 15:27:15 GMT -5
And if the " Bridge Year" unexpectedly turns into 2013 do you give up solid assets for a piece or two you need to get to the end of the marathon in first place and compete? Or do you make the (historically false, at least based on the data) assumption that you will be able to get back to the same point or better place next year if you hold firm?
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 5, 2021 15:53:14 GMT -5
And if the " Bridge Year" unexpectedly turns into 2013 do you give up solid assets for a piece or two you need to get to the end of the marathon in first place and compete? Or do you make the (historically false, at least based on the data) assumption that you will be able to get back to the same point or better place next year if you hold firm? FWIW, the Sox big move was Jake Peavy in 2013 who cost them Iglesias (and Montas). Iglesias was highly expendable because they knew Stephen Drew was the SS in 2013, Bogaerts could be called up to play 3b in 2013 and more importantly Bogaerts was going to be the SS for the next decade. From what I can see the Sox biggest needs at the moment are 1b, LF, setup reliever. They're going to try to resolve those issues internally. Probably Dalbec gets a lot more rope, Duran winds up in LF, and as we've seen before Cora figured out a way how to maneuver around not having a reliable 8th inning guy in the post-season, so I don't see any glaring need in which the Sox are going to dangle Casas or Jimenez or anybody like that whose loss makes us squirm. I think Bloom, if the Sox are in 2021 go-for-it mode, will find a way to make a deal which won't hamstring the organization. Suffice to say, if Max Scherzer becomes available, the Sox will not be in on it.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 5, 2021 15:54:21 GMT -5
If this is a "Bridge" type of team, then isn't Hernandez a "Bridge" type of player (as far as playing every day goes)? absolutely....or bench player on a championship team which the Red Sox were not presumed to be. “Flip bate” Exactly. In a perfect world the Sox have a productive LF and Duran comes up as the primary CF with Hernandez taking on some ABs against lefties in the short end of a platoon - sort of the way the Dodgers utilized him - and not in the leadoff spot!
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Post by Guidas on May 5, 2021 17:27:43 GMT -5
As much as I really, really love Duran’s potential, I really would love to see him at the least get a few hundred PAs in AAA before we start thinking of him as the next CF or LF. I can’t help but think of Garin Checchini and a few other great almosts.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 5, 2021 17:33:31 GMT -5
And if the " Bridge Year" unexpectedly turns into 2013 do you give up solid assets for a piece or two you need to get to the end of the marathon in first place and compete? Or do you make the (historically false, at least based on the data) assumption that you will be able to get back to the same point or better place next year if you hold firm? FWIW, the Sox big move was Jake Peavy in 2013 who cost them Iglesias (and Montas). Iglesias was highly expendable because they knew Stephen Drew was the SS in 2013, Bogaerts could be called up to play 3b in 2013 and more importantly Bogaerts was going to be the SS for the next decade. From what I can see the Sox biggest needs at the moment are 1b, LF, setup reliever. They're going to try to resolve those issues internally. Probably Dalbec gets a lot more rope, Duran winds up in LF, and as we've seen before Cora figured out a way how to maneuver around not having a reliable 8th inning guy in the post-season, so I don't see any glaring need in which the Sox are going to dangle Casas or Jimenez or anybody like that whose loss makes us squirm. I think Bloom, if the Sox are in 2021 go-for-it mode, will find a way to make a deal which won't hamstring the organization. Suffice to say, if Max Scherzer becomes available, the Sox will not be in on it. And in 2021, the Red Sox are already getting a massive acquisition. They're getting Chris Sale. Hopefully Duran or Downs are so good that they force their way onto the parent club. Assuming that Sale, Duran and Downs are all in good shape and looking good this team doesn't seem like it has a whole lot of needs currently. Maybe get some help for Dalbec if his bat isn't where it should be by then.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 5, 2021 17:59:26 GMT -5
The Tigers starting lineup has 6 players hitting under .200! Wow, can we still blame this on DD....the $30 million for Miggy would have gone a long way toward other players....
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 5, 2021 18:26:43 GMT -5
The Tigers starting lineup has 6 players hitting under .200! Wow, can we still blame this on DD....the $30 million for Miggy would have gone a long way toward other players.... DD destroyed that team, but how long is their current GM going to skate for? Honest question, I don't know anything about their GM situation.
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Post by manfred on May 5, 2021 18:41:46 GMT -5
The Tigers starting lineup has 6 players hitting under .200! Wow, can we still blame this on DD....the $30 million for Miggy would have gone a long way toward other players.... DD destroyed that team, but how long is their current GM going to skate for? Honest question, I don't know anything about their GM situation. I mean... guy was hired April 2002. Recent Tigers records: 2001: 66-96 2002: 55-106 2003: 43-119 By 2006, they won 95 games. 2011-2014, 1st place. They were a few breaks from a title. This led by Verlander (his pick), and Scherzer (acquired for Ian Kennedy and Curtis Granderson.... who says DD can’t trade vets for youth?). Now they are bad, as so many teams will be. But the guy took a terrible team and made them one of the better teams in the game for more than half of a decade. That hardly seems like “destroying” a team. Oh, and on the skate thing... yeah, I mean DD has been out for 6 years. Whatever problems the Cabrera contract may cause, it is not why they suck. There are teams that carry bad dead contracts and compete.
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Post by James Dunne on May 5, 2021 18:51:14 GMT -5
The thing with Dalbec is that he's crushing lefties and getting eaten alive by righties. And even if it continues to play that way, they have enough positional flexibility to bring in a LHB first baseman and make Dalbec a lefty-mashing platoon guy and pinch hitter. He's making the minimum and the value in bringing in all these dudes who can play 8 positions is that you have the roster space for a first base platoon. If Logan Morrison is still upright he's a better use of a roster spot than using Philips Valdez twice a month. The Tigers starting lineup has 6 players hitting under .200! Wow, can we still blame this on DD....the $30 million for Miggy would have gone a long way toward other players.... I mean, find me the combination of free agents who have signed for $30 million who would make this Tigers team good? Like... they're not Bryce Harper away. They're not a $20 million guy and two $5 million guys away. If they were a 78-win team, you could blame the Cabrera contract. But it isn't a real difference-maker right now.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 5, 2021 19:05:11 GMT -5
Smooth Enrique
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Post by Guidas on May 5, 2021 19:05:18 GMT -5
And if the " Bridge Year" unexpectedly turns into 2013 do you give up solid assets for a piece or two you need to get to the end of the marathon in first place and compete? Or do you make the (historically false, at least based on the data) assumption that you will be able to get back to the same point or better place next year if you hold firm? FWIW, the Sox big move was Jake Peavy in 2013 who cost them Iglesias (and Montas). Iglesias was highly expendable because they knew Stephen Drew was the SS in 2013, Bogaerts could be called up to play 3b in 2013 and more importantly Bogaerts was going to be the SS for the next decade. From what I can see the Sox biggest needs at the moment are 1b, LF, setup reliever. They're going to try to resolve those issues internally. Probably Dalbec gets a lot more rope, Duran winds up in LF, and as we've seen before Cora figured out a way how to maneuver around not having a reliable 8th inning guy in the post-season, so I don't see any glaring need in which the Sox are going to dangle Casas or Jimenez or anybody like that whose loss makes us squirm. I think Bloom, if the Sox are in 2021 go-for-it mode, will find a way to make a deal which won't hamstring the organization. Suffice to say, if Max Scherzer becomes available, the Sox will not be in on it. The Sox won in 2013 DESPITE Jake Peavy.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 5, 2021 19:09:49 GMT -5
I’m not gonna stand for the Jake Peavy slander, he had a bad game in the ALCS and was otherwise a solid starter for a team that desperately needed somebody in that 5 hole (Dempster was painful to watch and Clay was hurt cuz his baby slept on him funky)
2014 was.....tough lol. But then they turned him into Hembree who then partially turned into Pivetta/Seabold after some useful seasons
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 5, 2021 19:13:11 GMT -5
The Tigers starting lineup has 6 players hitting under .200! Wow, can we still blame this on DD....the $30 million for Miggy would have gone a long way toward other players.... DD destroyed that team, but how long is their current GM going to skate for? Honest question, I don't know anything about their GM situation. ....or payroll situation??
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Post by Guidas on May 5, 2021 19:20:54 GMT -5
Got one but thag was another bottom of the order squander.
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Post by wildsox on May 5, 2021 19:29:19 GMT -5
Arroyo has struggled since he got drilled in the hand. Hopefully it heals and he can heat up again
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 5, 2021 19:32:01 GMT -5
Got one but thag was another bottom of the order squander. A run without the benefit of a hit ... nice👍🏻 Guidas is your beer mug always half empty?
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Post by wildsox on May 5, 2021 19:49:02 GMT -5
Seriously Franchy?
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nomar
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Post by nomar on May 5, 2021 19:50:46 GMT -5
Crying in my Benintendi jersey
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 5, 2021 19:52:06 GMT -5
Guy needs to be optioned just to regroup, he’s clearly feeling the heat right now
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Post by soxinsf on May 5, 2021 19:52:12 GMT -5
If Franchy can not hit and can not field, is there any reason to think that Chavis would be worse.
This is now like leaving a pitcher with no stuff in the game while he gives up ten runs.
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