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5/11-5/13 Red Sox vs. Athletics Series Thread
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Post by incandenza on May 12, 2021 22:03:34 GMT -5
I just looked back at the thread. You were just saying his career stats suck. I think everybody would be feeling alright if he was playing up to his career stats. The projections that just look at his career stats thought he'd put up like a 700 OPS. I don't see how you can take any kind of victory lap here. Me? I am not exactly taking a *victory lap*. But I — and others — thought starting Cordero was foolish. Honestly, I don’t know that there were any folks fully on the Franchy train, so it is not like faces are being rubbed, crow being eaten. But the strange thing about this season is for many guys we are seeing the worst case or a very bad case scenario... but the team is better than expected. As they enter tougher stretches, if they flounder, miscalculations like not having a real LF could be decisive. I've pretty much shared your concern since the off-season with the way the outfield was constructed. But you've specifically said more than once that Franchy's performance has been "predictable," and... no. No one predicted this, including you.
But again, my point was just that he's so far off course, I don't think we can say what we're even seeing. A guy who's mentally floundering? Some physical issue? Whatever the case, we're definitely not seeing anything close to his actual potential. Which might just be a .700 OPS guy... but boy would that be an improvement.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 12, 2021 22:18:47 GMT -5
What a terrible game. Huge squander in the 1st. E-Rod gives up the tying run with 2 outs the next inning. He balks in a run in the 5th and then the Red Sox hit an apparent DP grounder and Kaprellian gives the Sox a gift with an error to put runners on the corners with none out and the meat of the order coming up and they don't freaking score. So of course the A's tacked on another run an inning later and that's the game as the Sox don't hit for the fourth straight game.
If the middle of the order doesn't mash this team doesn't score.
And for whatever reason, for the 3rd straight season, this team cannot win games at Fenway. I echo Guidas' sentiment - by time the Angels leave Fenway I anticipate that the Sox will be behind the Yankees in the standings and most likely it will stay that way.
As for the good - Bazardo pitched well. He challenges hitters. Would it be crazy if he the Sox gave him a shot at staying up in the majors, letting him pitch low leverage and then see if he could possibly be an 8th inning solution? I mean watching guys walks leadoff hitters in those situations are maddening. This kid goes after the hitters.
And Casas had 4 hits and 2 long homers, so Duran and Casas have looked good the last two days and as somebody mentioned Winckowski pitched well. Maybe Franchy could do well - in Worcester.
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Post by cheers on May 12, 2021 22:36:10 GMT -5
We're approaching the 1/4 pole - the point at which most people would say you can kind of figure out what you've got.
Is it just me, or does this season seem unusually roller-coastery?
I went in to the season thinking this was an 82 win team. A couple of times recently, I've been able to convince myself this is a 92 win team - with a shot to do something in the playoffs if Sale comes back and is just "ok", and if we pick up a bat-first goon at the deadline.
Now, I'm back to thinking this is an 84 win team.
On the plus side, the gaping holes are ones that are the easiest to fill in June/July. Decent 1B bat. Decent LF bat. Middle relief.
Hope springs eternal.
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Post by manfred on May 12, 2021 23:21:57 GMT -5
Me? I am not exactly taking a *victory lap*. But I — and others — thought starting Cordero was foolish. Honestly, I don’t know that there were any folks fully on the Franchy train, so it is not like faces are being rubbed, crow being eaten. But the strange thing about this season is for many guys we are seeing the worst case or a very bad case scenario... but the team is better than expected. As they enter tougher stretches, if they flounder, miscalculations like not having a real LF could be decisive. I've pretty much shared your concern since the off-season with the way the outfield was constructed. But you've specifically said more than once that Franchy's performance has been "predictable," and... no. No one predicted this, including you.
But again, my point was just that he's so far off course, I don't think we can say what we're even seeing. A guy who's mentally floundering? Some physical issue? Whatever the case, we're definitely not seeing anything close to his actual potential. Which might just be a .700 OPS guy... but boy would that be an improvement.
Fair. I mean predictable in the sense that he would not be good. Not predictable in just how bad he’s been. But I think many people anticipated the outfield would be below average and that Franchy would be a big part of that.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 12, 2021 23:33:44 GMT -5
Fine. Declare the Franchy experiment over and play Marwin in LF and Chavis and Arauz at 2B until Arroyo and Hernandez return. None of them can be worse the Cordero.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,933
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Post by ericmvan on May 12, 2021 23:44:44 GMT -5
What a terrible game. Huge squander in the 1st. E-Rod gives up the tying run with 2 outs the next inning. He balks in a run in the 5th and then the Red Sox hit an apparent DP grounder and Kaprellian gives the Sox a gift with an error to put runners on the corners with none out and the meat of the order coming up and they don't freaking score. So of course the A's tacked on another run an inning later and that's the game as the Sox don't hit for the fourth straight game. If the middle of the order doesn't mash this team doesn't score. And for whatever reason, for the 3rd straight season, this team cannot win games at Fenway. I echo Guidas' sentiment - by time the Angels leave Fenway I anticipate that the Sox will be behind the Yankees in the standings and most likely it will stay that way. As for the good - Bazardo pitched well. He challenges hitters. Would it be crazy if he the Sox gave him a shot at staying up in the majors, letting him pitch low leverage and then see if he could possibly be an 8th inning solution? I mean watching guys walks leadoff hitters in those situations are maddening. This kid goes after the hitters. And Casas had 4 hits and 2 long homers, so Duran and Casas have looked good the last two days and as somebody mentioned Winckowski pitched well. Maybe Franchy could do well - in Worcester. Thanks so much for the recap. Tonight was the first full-on live meeting since COVID of the film group I help run -- we had six people in my living room plus six on Zoom (projected to my 65" TV) for the pre-film intro and a long post-film discussion, so I had to make the call to either watch the game on the DVR or just check the score and then go see the highlights (if any). So, so, so, so very glad I chose the latter!
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Post by unitspin on May 12, 2021 23:46:00 GMT -5
I just looked back at the thread. You were just saying his career stats suck. I think everybody would be feeling alright if he was playing up to his career stats. The projections that just look at his career stats thought he'd put up like a 700 OPS. I don't see how you can take any kind of victory lap here. Me? I am not exactly taking a *victory lap*. But I — and others — thought starting Cordero was foolish. Honestly, I don’t know that there were any folks fully on the Franchy train, so it is not like faces are being rubbed, crow being eaten. But the strange thing about this season is for many guys we are seeing the worst case or a very bad case scenario... but the team is better than expected. As they enter tougher stretches, if they flounder, miscalculations like not having a real LF could be decisive. I'm not digging through thousands of posts but I'm pretty sure there was a crowd on here that claimed franchy was going to have a big season better then Benny. He was going to play up in Fenway I can recall a couple ppl saying. So to change it after the fact saying ppl didn't think he was going to be a AAAer is a funny way to paint it. Hell there was a crowd that said richards was going to be better then kluber I got slammed for being on the otherside of that argument. Even now I was calling the red sox 3 or 4 in the division all along and ppl raked me for that, now all of a sudden everyone knew that. Well actually some ppl did predict it you just werent listening.
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Post by Jimmy on May 13, 2021 2:21:10 GMT -5
Guys I’ll admit it. I thought Franchy would be at worst net zero vs Benny. Was wrong. I’ll pay for his Uber to Worcester. Time to stop dragging out the experiment.
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shagworthy
Veteran
My neckbeard game is on point.
Posts: 1,507
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Post by shagworthy on May 13, 2021 7:55:07 GMT -5
Is something wrong with Verdugo? He sat with back issues, and his last 15 games, he’s .259/.338/.345. He has not been so good of late. He also seems a bit slower this year on the base paths, like he lost a step or two. Makes me wonder if that spin about him not wanting to play out of the gate in the Spring was just that, a misdirection while he tried to work through an injury.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,075
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Post by cdj on May 13, 2021 8:02:23 GMT -5
They were extremely cautious with his back, I doubt they would have been playing him consistently if it was an issue he was dealing with/trying to manage in March/April
Probably just a cold streak. Literally everybody has them and his isn’t even that bad, it’s still probably better than whatever is league average nowadays lol
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Post by unitspin on May 13, 2021 9:45:27 GMT -5
One random thought on Bloom - for as much as he's been praised for being the anti-DD and the type of guy who builds a whole team, how bad is the bottom of this roster? I realize that's not all his fault and he's found a couple of real gems, but as far as putting 25 guys on the field is he doing anything better than DD? All I'm going to say in blooms defense is that he was saddled with alot of average to below average contracts he has had to tip toe around. I'm going to give him until the end of next season before making a negative rip on him.
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Post by incandenza on May 13, 2021 10:10:32 GMT -5
One random thought on Bloom - for as much as he's been praised for being the anti-DD and the type of guy who builds a whole team, how bad is the bottom of this roster? I realize that's not all his fault and he's found a couple of real gems, but as far as putting 25 guys on the field is he doing anything better than DD? The bottom of the pitching roster has been pretty derned impressive, Brice notwithstanding. Really it's just a position player thing. Or really really just an outfielder thing. In fact it's like 90% this Franchy/Renfroe misadventure.
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Post by dyoungteach on May 13, 2021 10:26:30 GMT -5
One random thought on Bloom - for as much as he's been praised for being the anti-DD and the type of guy who builds a whole team, how bad is the bottom of this roster? I realize that's not all his fault and he's found a couple of real gems, but as far as putting 25 guys on the field is he doing anything better than DD? Give him years and digging out of the hole he was left in..... yes I believe he will be. Right now, like last year, under payroll constraints.... absolutely not. Let’s see at his attempt to find depth pays off. I will say this, he KINDA tried this last year with relief pitchers and it stunk to high heck. All those extra arms he signed weren’t so good. Hoping the outfield situation turns out a lot better. But I’ll enjoy first place and baseball.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 13, 2021 10:34:07 GMT -5
I don't think you can blame Bloom for Franchy, Renfroe, Marwin, Kiki and Dalbec all either outright smelling up the joint or getting off to bad starts. I think he and most of us all would have expected more from each one of those guys and if half of them had come thru the discussions would be different. They didn't and all have underwhelmed so far.
Pretty sure Bloom and Cora are chomping at the bit to send Franchy down for Santana, maybe the Sox will get lucky with one of these guys in the form of DS. Just a bit more success at AAA and Santana should be up on Monday hopefully.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 13, 2021 10:38:03 GMT -5
One random thought on Bloom - for as much as he's been praised for being the anti-DD and the type of guy who builds a whole team, how bad is the bottom of this roster? I realize that's not all his fault and he's found a couple of real gems, but as far as putting 25 guys on the field is he doing anything better than DD? CB is at a $55M disadvantage, mostly due to DD: Price - $16M Sale - $25.6M Pedroia - $13.75M (not due to DD)
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 13, 2021 10:43:21 GMT -5
One random thought on Bloom - for as much as he's been praised for being the anti-DD and the type of guy who builds a whole team, how bad is the bottom of this roster? I realize that's not all his fault and he's found a couple of real gems, but as far as putting 25 guys on the field is he doing anything better than DD? All I'm going to say in blooms defense is that he was saddled with alot of average to below average contracts he has had to tip toe around. I'm going to give him until the end of next season before making a negative rip on him. So DD depth issues were just our owners not allowing him to spend more? DD had many bad contracts to work around in Sandoval, Handley and Pedroia. I actually like what Blooms done, said it all off-season this team could surprise people. Yet kinda still upset that the DD bashing, like finding depth is crazy easy. By my count Bloom added over 40 million for luxury tax purposes in players by either signing or trading for them. That's not a small amount of money. He created the dead money for Price and Benintendi.
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Post by incandenza on May 13, 2021 10:49:06 GMT -5
I don't think you can blame Bloom for Franchy, Renfroe, Marwin, Kiki and Dalbec all either outright smelling up the joint or getting off to bad starts. I think he and most of us all would have expected more from each one of those guys and if half of them had come thru the discussions would be different. They didn't and all have underwhelmed so far. Pretty sure Bloom and Cora are chomping at the bit to send Franchy down for Santana, maybe the Sox will get lucky with one of these guys in the form of DS. Just a bit more success at AAA and Santana should be up on Monday hopefully. I'm a big Bloom fan so far, but I think he can be blamed for Franchy and Renfroe's bad starts at least. First of all, he went out of his way to replace their starting LFer with Franchy. (For the record: my position all along on the Benintendi trade has been "to be determined," and so it remains.) And on Renfroe, the worry some of us had since the off-season is that the outfield was a little too thin, and while Renfroe would be fine, even good, in a platoon role, he'd end up getting way too many ABs against righties. The numbers so far:
vs. L: 33 PAs, 110 wRC+ vs. R: 80 PAs, 58 wRC+
When he's made into an everyday starter and you have no one on the bench to hit for him when the other team brings in a righty reliever, that's what happens.
If Duran comes up in four weeks and rakes, and Renfroe is pushed into a true platoon role, then I'll say "Oh, okay, so that was the plan. It's a gamble but it worked out." For now, though, it looks like a hole in the roster construction, and that's on Bloom.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 13, 2021 10:52:26 GMT -5
One random thought on Bloom - for as much as he's been praised for being the anti-DD and the type of guy who builds a whole team, how bad is the bottom of this roster? I realize that's not all his fault and he's found a couple of real gems, but as far as putting 25 guys on the field is he doing anything better than DD? CB is at a $55M disadvantage, mostly due to DD: Price - $16M Sale - $25.6M Pedroia - $13.75M (not due to DD) Interesting you blame DD for a trade Bloom made. Will Sale be a disadvantage when he comes back?
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Post by manfred on May 13, 2021 11:05:54 GMT -5
I don't think you can blame Bloom for Franchy, Renfroe, Marwin, Kiki and Dalbec all either outright smelling up the joint or getting off to bad starts. I think he and most of us all would have expected more from each one of those guys and if half of them had come thru the discussions would be different. They didn't and all have underwhelmed so far. Pretty sure Bloom and Cora are chomping at the bit to send Franchy down for Santana, maybe the Sox will get lucky with one of these guys in the form of DS. Just a bit more success at AAA and Santana should be up on Monday hopefully. I'm a big Bloom fan so far, but I think he can be blamed for Franchy and Renfroe's bad starts at least. First of all, he went out of his way to replace their starting LFer with Franchy. (For the record: my position all along on the Benintendi trade has been "to be determined," and so it remains.) And on Renfroe, the worry some of us had since the off-season is that the outfield was a little too thin, and while Renfroe would be fine, even good, in a platoon role, he'd end up getting way too many ABs against righties. The numbers so far:
vs. L: 33 PAs, 110 wRC+ vs. R: 80 PAs, 58 wRC+
When he's made into an everyday starter and you have no one on the bench to hit for him when the other team brings in a righty reliever, that's what happens.
If Duran comes up in four weeks and rakes, and Renfroe is pushed into a true platoon role, then I'll say "Oh, okay, so that was the plan. It's a gamble but it worked out." For now, though, it looks like a hole in the roster construction, and that's on Bloom.
This is what is so interesting. In the off season, folks who liked the Renfroe signing (iirc) seemed to like it as a platoon move. But the outfield has been Franchy-AV-Renfroe (or a similar construction that puts those two guys in together) far too often. And the problem I always had with concept of the platoon is you have a guy who is *by design* pretty helpless in same-hand situations as next-man-up in case of rest, injury, substitution. That is, if you could create a platoon in which the cosmos behaved and had you facing just optimal matchups, great. But baseball is uncooperative. I also am not so sure the plan was to hurry Duran along. That doesn’t appear to be the MO. He may come, bismillah, but I really doubt they said “we’ll trade for Franchy, sign Renfroe, put Kiké in CF, but by June we’ll go to Duran.” They will go to him if he can’t be denied, but if they were being cautious going into the year, why not continue being cautious with the development of one of your 2-3 most important prospects? I think they figured they could get away with Renfroe and Franchy and if not thry’d get Santana or some other “bridge.” But I also think they didn’t think it would matter so much.
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Post by incandenza on May 13, 2021 11:31:56 GMT -5
I'm a big Bloom fan so far, but I think he can be blamed for Franchy and Renfroe's bad starts at least. First of all, he went out of his way to replace their starting LFer with Franchy. (For the record: my position all along on the Benintendi trade has been "to be determined," and so it remains.) And on Renfroe, the worry some of us had since the off-season is that the outfield was a little too thin, and while Renfroe would be fine, even good, in a platoon role, he'd end up getting way too many ABs against righties. The numbers so far:
vs. L: 33 PAs, 110 wRC+ vs. R: 80 PAs, 58 wRC+
When he's made into an everyday starter and you have no one on the bench to hit for him when the other team brings in a righty reliever, that's what happens.
If Duran comes up in four weeks and rakes, and Renfroe is pushed into a true platoon role, then I'll say "Oh, okay, so that was the plan. It's a gamble but it worked out." For now, though, it looks like a hole in the roster construction, and that's on Bloom.
This is what is so interesting. In the off season, folks who liked the Renfroe signing (iirc) seemed to like it as a platoon move. But the outfield has been Franchy-AV-Renfroe (or a similar construction that puts those two guys in together) far too often. And the problem I always had with concept of the platoon is you have a guy who is *by design* pretty helpless in same-hand situations as next-man-up in case of rest, injury, substitution. That is, if you could create a platoon in which the cosmos behaved and had you facing just optimal matchups, great. But baseball is uncooperative. I also am not so sure the plan was to hurry Duran along. That doesn’t appear to be the MO. He may come, bismillah, but I really doubt they said “we’ll trade for Franchy, sign Renfroe, put Kiké in CF, but by June we’ll go to Duran.” They will go to him if he can’t be denied, but if they were being cautious going into the year, why not continue being cautious with the development of one of your 2-3 most important prospects? I think they figured they could get away with Renfroe and Franchy and if not thry’d get Santana or some other “bridge.” But I also think they didn’t think it would matter so much. Yeah, I agree with all of that, and I'd add that even if they were very confident in Duran as a guy who could come up and fill a hole, I'd... be pretty skeptical of that confidence? He's off to a promising start in his first week at AAA, but otherwise he still has no real record of success in real game action above high-A. Hopefully he'll turn out great, but it would be a real roll of the dice to count on a guy like that.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 13, 2021 11:39:08 GMT -5
I don't think you can blame Bloom for Franchy, Renfroe, Marwin, Kiki and Dalbec all either outright smelling up the joint or getting off to bad starts. I think he and most of us all would have expected more from each one of those guys and if half of them had come thru the discussions would be different. They didn't and all have underwhelmed so far. Pretty sure Bloom and Cora are chomping at the bit to send Franchy down for Santana, maybe the Sox will get lucky with one of these guys in the form of DS. Just a bit more success at AAA and Santana should be up on Monday hopefully. I'm a big Bloom fan so far, but I think he can be blamed for Franchy and Renfroe's bad starts at least. First of all, he went out of his way to replace their starting LFer with Franchy. (For the record: my position all along on the Benintendi trade has been "to be determined," and so it remains.) And on Renfroe, the worry some of us had since the off-season is that the outfield was a little too thin, and while Renfroe would be fine, even good, in a platoon role, he'd end up getting way too many ABs against righties. The numbers so far:
vs. L: 33 PAs, 110 wRC+ vs. R: 80 PAs, 58 wRC+
When he's made into an everyday starter and you have no one on the bench to hit for him when the other team brings in a righty reliever, that's what happens.
If Duran comes up in four weeks and rakes, and Renfroe is pushed into a true platoon role, then I'll say "Oh, okay, so that was the plan. It's a gamble but it worked out." For now, though, it looks like a hole in the roster construction, and that's on Bloom.
So far I am a Bloom fan also, hopefully we have more reasons to feel that way moving forward. Sure we can blame him but for all 5 guys not producing? And with Marwin and Kiki weren't they also considered OF depth? The team is off to a good start obviously but their are holes to be filled and I want them filled sooner rather than later.
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Post by manfred on May 13, 2021 14:15:19 GMT -5
Michael Chavis... lead off man?? Betcha never saw that coming.
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Post by Guidas on May 13, 2021 14:24:17 GMT -5
Michael Chavis... lead off man?? Betcha never saw that coming. Still hoping for a Mike Trout trade to the Sox by the end of the day. Also hoping to win MegaMillions jackpot tomorrow.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 13, 2021 15:56:43 GMT -5
CB is at a $55M disadvantage, mostly due to DD: Price - $16M Sale - $25.6M Pedroia - $13.75M (not due to DD) Interesting you blame DD for a trade Bloom made. Will Sale be a disadvantage when he comes back? If you mean -Price $16 million, then let me correct it.....Price still on the RS roster $32 million !!!!!! The newest relief pitcher for the Dodgers...
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 13, 2021 16:58:17 GMT -5
Interesting you blame DD for a trade Bloom made. Will Sale be a disadvantage when he comes back? If you mean -Price $16 million, then let me correct it.....Price still on the RS roster $32 million !!!!!! The newest relief pitcher for the Dodgers... Yeah he's been in relief for them, have you looked at that rotation? We have one of the best records in Baseball and none of our starters would be starting on that team without injuries.
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