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Red Sox Acquire Kyle Schwarber for Aldo Ramirez
rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 14, 2021 8:14:36 GMT -5
I'm dubious that Chaim will pay top-market, multi-year money for a DH-only player. I think there will be more emphasis on defense (both glove-first and more expensive bat+glove guys) over the next couple off-seasons...
EDIT: I also don't think he'll be handing out a ton of 12-year, $350+m contracts, bat+glove or otherwise...
I don't see Schwarber as a DH only player. First of all, he's been transitioning to 1B for like 3 months. Give him an off-season to work on it and maybe you have a guy who can be adequate there when facing RHPs. Second, he's not AWFUL in LF, especially in the smaller one at Fenway. I would honestly consider trading Renfroe since his Arb $# is going to be near $7-8mil and I worry that this season was more of a career year than a "coming into his own" year. This allows you to use Schwarber at 3 positions (1B, LF, DH). Then maybe you go get another OF who hits righties well to play when it's Schwarber's turn at 1B since Dalbec won't be in the lineup. Or maybe you don't do any of those things if you believe Casas is coming up <soon> to, at the very least, fill the LHH 1B platoon role, since that decreases the amount of versatility you'd need out of Schwarber, and re-signing him will likely cost relatively large money over relatively long years, overlapping with Casas' affordable years. Idfk... If the Red Sox trade Renfroe, because of money at 7/8m a year, after being under the tax for 2 straight years then we need a revolt. I’m not saying they should spend stupidly, but if I hear about the tax being a barrier for them next year, I’ll lose my mind. If you stay under it, and build a great team and sign good contracts and walk away from bad ones, then so be it. But if you’re unwilling to give a good player a solid value contract because of the tax line then they need to be ridiculed for that.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 14, 2021 10:02:51 GMT -5
The new CBA will likely bring massive changes. Everyone is acting like what happened with the old CBA will be the same norm. Yet the players will demand rules to increase spending. The luxury tax has to go up. You likely see moving the draft pick go, heck the two tier tax system might go away. My basic point being we could potentially see a free agent market we haven't seen in years. Heck a team like the Yankees could drive the market almost by themselves and after this year watch out.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 14, 2021 10:11:23 GMT -5
I don't see Schwarber as a DH only player. First of all, he's been transitioning to 1B for like 3 months. Give him an off-season to work on it and maybe you have a guy who can be adequate there when facing RHPs. Second, he's not AWFUL in LF, especially in the smaller one at Fenway. I would honestly consider trading Renfroe since his Arb $# is going to be near $7-8mil and I worry that this season was more of a career year than a "coming into his own" year. This allows you to use Schwarber at 3 positions (1B, LF, DH). Then maybe you go get another OF who hits righties well to play when it's Schwarber's turn at 1B since Dalbec won't be in the lineup. Or maybe you don't do any of those things if you believe Casas is coming up <soon> to, at the very least, fill the LHH 1B platoon role, since that decreases the amount of versatility you'd need out of Schwarber, and re-signing him will likely cost relatively large money over relatively long years, overlapping with Casas' affordable years. Idfk... If the Red Sox trade Renfroe, because of money at 7/8m a year, after being under the tax for 2 straight years then we need a revolt. I’m not saying they should spend stupidly, but if I hear about the tax being a barrier for them next year, I’ll lose my mind. If you stay under it, and build a great team and sign good contracts and walk away from bad ones, then so be it. But if you’re unwilling to give a good player a solid value contract because of the tax line then they need to be ridiculed for that. It's not just a question of penny-pinching; I'm sure the idea would be that you could upgrade from Renfroe, who is probably a bit overrated by the arb process (and fans/media, in my opinion). Schwarber would certainly be an upgrade on Renfroe, or they could get someone else.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Oct 14, 2021 10:12:32 GMT -5
I don't see Schwarber as a DH only player. First of all, he's been transitioning to 1B for like 3 months. Give him an off-season to work on it and maybe you have a guy who can be adequate there when facing RHPs. Second, he's not AWFUL in LF, especially in the smaller one at Fenway. I would honestly consider trading Renfroe since his Arb $# is going to be near $7-8mil and I worry that this season was more of a career year than a "coming into his own" year. This allows you to use Schwarber at 3 positions (1B, LF, DH). Then maybe you go get another OF who hits righties well to play when it's Schwarber's turn at 1B since Dalbec won't be in the lineup. Or maybe you don't do any of those things if you believe Casas is coming up <soon> to, at the very least, fill the LHH 1B platoon role, since that decreases the amount of versatility you'd need out of Schwarber, and re-signing him will likely cost relatively large money over relatively long years, overlapping with Casas' affordable years. Idfk... If the Red Sox trade Renfroe, because of money at 7/8m a year, after being under the tax for 2 straight years then we need a revolt. I’m not saying they should spend stupidly, but if I hear about the tax being a barrier for them next year, I’ll lose my mind. If you stay under it, and build a great team and sign good contracts and walk away from bad ones, then so be it. But if you’re unwilling to give a good player a solid value contract because of the tax line then they need to be ridiculed for that. I think trading Renfroe makes sense if they're able to upgrade the position through free agency (Schwarber or someone else) - especially if they can get valuable long-term prospects in return. But I agree pertaining the the tax (or whatever takes it's place). If the Red Sox remain under next year after resetting this year (assuming they didn't mess that up) and mounting a deep playoff run, then there's an issue. I see a Renfroe trade and going over the tax as part of the same plan.
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 14, 2021 10:18:00 GMT -5
I will go on the record and say that this is the new Renfroe. I think he learned something this year and might even get better. Just a full season of him doing what he has for the last 4 months would be a very good season. Who are you going to replace him with that won't be a lot more than his arb number? Nobody
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 14, 2021 10:25:44 GMT -5
I will go on the record and say that this is the new Renfroe. I think he learned something this year and might even get better. Just a full season of him doing what he has for the last 4 months would be a very good season. Who are you going to replace him with that won't be a lot more than his arb number? Nobody You may be right on renfroe being what he was this year going forward. Lookint at his 2017-2019 stretch in San Diego his offensive numbers aren't that dissimilar than this year. Playing 81 games in fenway more than likely suits him better than 81 in San Diego. I'd definitely hold on to renfroe since as you point out the price to upgrade from him is going to be pretty steep in terms of dollars or prospects. The only thing I'd want them to entertain is maybe a deal for a cost controlled starter but those don't exactly grow on trees and I doubt he gets one himself.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 14, 2021 10:37:38 GMT -5
I will go on the record and say that this is the new Renfroe. I think he learned something this year and might even get better. Just a full season of him doing what he has for the last 4 months would be a very good season. Who are you going to replace him with that won't be a lot more than his arb number? Nobody I would be more enthusiastic about Renfroe if he could combine his offense from the last four months with the defense from the first two months. But (by both numbers and eye test) he really fell off on defense, bazooka arm notwithstanding.
Of course it's hardly one of the team's most pressing issues if they have him next season for $7-8 million.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Oct 14, 2021 10:46:27 GMT -5
I will go on the record and say that this is the new Renfroe. I think he learned something this year and might even get better. Just a full season of him doing what he has for the last 4 months would be a very good season. Who are you going to replace him with that won't be a lot more than his arb number? Nobody You may be right on renfroe being what he was this year going forward. Lookint at his 2017-2019 stretch in San Diego his offensive numbers aren't that dissimilar than this year. Playing 81 games in fenway more than likely suits him better than 81 in San Diego. I'd definitely hold on to renfroe since as you point out the price to upgrade from him is going to be pretty steep in terms of dollars or prospects. The only thing I'd want them to entertain is maybe a deal for a cost controlled starter but those don't exactly grow on trees and I doubt he gets one himself. Look at his BB%, K% and P/PA - they're very close to his 2017 and 2018 numbers. In 2019 and 2020 (and some of early 2021) he was a more passive/selective hitter and his performance dropped as a result.
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 14, 2021 10:46:57 GMT -5
Is it possible to bring everyone back including JD and Schwarber even for just 1 season? Their would a lot of depth and platoon options for Cora. I don't think it would be out of the question from a salary stand point.
I think another year together could be special but that doesn't address the defensive issues.
I would be happy with an upgraded pitching staff which with Sale for a whole season is already in the books. This is a good team especially when the bats come alive.
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Post by agastonguay13 on Oct 14, 2021 10:47:07 GMT -5
I don't see Schwarber as a DH only player. First of all, he's been transitioning to 1B for like 3 months. Give him an off-season to work on it and maybe you have a guy who can be adequate there when facing RHPs. Second, he's not AWFUL in LF, especially in the smaller one at Fenway. I would honestly consider trading Renfroe since his Arb $# is going to be near $7-8mil and I worry that this season was more of a career year than a "coming into his own" year. This allows you to use Schwarber at 3 positions (1B, LF, DH). Then maybe you go get another OF who hits righties well to play when it's Schwarber's turn at 1B since Dalbec won't be in the lineup. Or maybe you don't do any of those things if you believe Casas is coming up <soon> to, at the very least, fill the LHH 1B platoon role, since that decreases the amount of versatility you'd need out of Schwarber, and re-signing him will likely cost relatively large money over relatively long years, overlapping with Casas' affordable years. Idfk... If the Red Sox trade Renfroe, because of money at 7/8m a year, after being under the tax for 2 straight years then we need a revolt. I’m not saying they should spend stupidly, but if I hear about the tax being a barrier for them next year, I’ll lose my mind. If you stay under it, and build a great team and sign good contracts and walk away from bad ones, then so be it. But if you’re unwilling to give a good player a solid value contract because of the tax line then they need to be ridiculed for that. To be clear, I'm not advocating for trading Renfroe to remain under the threshold. I'm saying I'd explore it because A) I don't believe he will be a consistent 30/100 guy. B) He might be an attractive target for another team that DOES believe he will be a 30/100 guy, potentially garnering a decent return in a trade (nothing crazy, but 2 years on Arb for a guy you believe will be an offensive force would require more than nothing). C) He's not as valuable as he was this season. Making $7mil, while not a crazy amount, is more than twice the $3.1mil he got this season. That $4-5 mil could be allocated to Schwarber's new contract for 2022. Any such trade would have to be a plus for the organization. I'm not saying trade him because he's bad, or to save money, just that he seems to me to be a candidate to be traded for the reason listed above.
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 14, 2021 10:50:24 GMT -5
BTW from what I saw Fenway took a lot of HRs away from Renfroe. Their was 2 in one game not long ago.
From an interview I read he mentioned the team wanting him to work the whole field and not be so much of a pull hitter, like focus on going to center. That is where I think he improved and learned something this year.
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Post by kcbosox on Oct 14, 2021 11:15:45 GMT -5
Personally, I’m not sure JD even opts-in. Unless you’re talking #2 Starter type, trading Renfroe makes little sense. At $7-8 that’s still a bargain and still controllable. Scwarber is a worthwhile asset no matter what, and should be locked up on a 3yr plus team option deal. A question might be what trade value (presumably higher) Verdugo has vs. Renfroe. Renfroe can maintain this years performance, and cut down on errors. You can’t compare him to Judge, but look at numbers from other top RFs, and you’ll see that he’s a bargain. Maybe you even teach Dalbec LF.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Oct 14, 2021 11:23:17 GMT -5
Is it possible to bring everyone back including JD and Schwarber even for just 1 season? Their would a lot of depth and platoon options for Cora. I don't think it would be out of the question from a salary stand point. I think another year together could be special but that doesn't address the defensive issues. I would be happy with an upgraded pitching staff which with Sale for a whole season is already in the books. This is a good team especially when the bats come alive. It may be possible, but it's extremely unlikely. We have quotes from John Henry questioning whether it was wise for Dombrowski to basically bring the band back together after 2018. Bloom strikes me as a guy who won't get sentimental with players and will instead tirelessly chase good value acquisitions. For example, he won't deal Renfroe if he can't get value, but if he feels like he can win the trade I'd expect him to be gone (naming Renfroe as an example only). If Schwarber's market is more limited than expected I could see him coming back, but he won't overextend to win a bidding war, he'd probably pivot to a Chris Taylor type who seems like a Bloom guy with his positional versatility. If Schwarber returns and JD opts in, I'd expect JD to be shopped even if the Sox have to kick in some money to move him.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 14, 2021 11:31:04 GMT -5
BTW from what I saw Fenway took a lot of HRs away from Renfroe. Their was 2 in one game not long ago. From an interview I read he mentioned the team wanting him to work the whole field and not be so much of a pull hitter, like focus on going to center. That is where I think he improved and learned something this year. FWIW, Baseball Savant tracks this. Looks like he basically was a -2 for the year. That said, incredibly, the top 3 unluckiest HR hitters by HR-xHR were Trevor Story, Charlie Blackmon, and CJ Cron. I have no idea how that works. NL West road parks I guess?
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 14, 2021 11:37:20 GMT -5
Is it possible to bring everyone back including JD and Schwarber even for just 1 season? Their would a lot of depth and platoon options for Cora. I don't think it would be out of the question from a salary stand point. I think another year together could be special but that doesn't address the defensive issues. I would be happy with an upgraded pitching staff which with Sale for a whole season is already in the books. This is a good team especially when the bats come alive. It may be possible, but it's extremely unlikely. We have quotes from John Henry questioning whether it was wise for Dombrowski to basically bring the band back together after 2018. Bloom strikes me as a guy who won't get sentimental with players and will instead tirelessly chase good value acquisitions. For example, he won't deal Renfroe if he can't get value, but if he feels like he can win the trade I'd expect him to be gone (naming Renfroe as an example only). If Schwarber's market is more limited than expected I could see him coming back, but he won't overextend to win a bidding war, he'd probably pivot to a Chris Taylor type who seems like a Bloom guy with his positional versatility. If Schwarber returns and JD opts in, I'd expect JD to be shopped even if the Sox have to kick in some money to move him. The only free agent we are talking about is Schwaber and he’s not some older guy who caught magic. I don’t think bringing him back would be the same as in 2018. Also, remember when we all thought the Eovaldi contract was a mistake after that 2018 season? Yet, here we are and the guy is by far the most important pitcher they got. This team wouldn’t have been in the playoff race without him let alone playing in the ALCS.
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 14, 2021 11:38:57 GMT -5
Personally, I’m not sure JD even opts-in. Unless you’re talking #2 Starter type, trading Renfroe makes little sense. At $7-8 that’s still a bargain and still controllable. Scwarber is a worthwhile asset no matter what, and should be locked up on a 3yr plus team option deal. A question might be what trade value (presumably higher) Verdugo has vs. Renfroe. Renfroe can maintain this years performance, and cut down on errors. You can’t compare him to Judge, but look at numbers from other top RFs, and you’ll see that he’s a bargain. Maybe you even teach Dalbec LF. He opted in after 2019 so I see no reason why he’s not opting in this year. I’d be surprised if he didn’t. Nothing shocks me but this would be close.
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 14, 2021 12:02:45 GMT -5
Personally, I’m not sure JD even opts-in. Unless you’re talking #2 Starter type, trading Renfroe makes little sense. At $7-8 that’s still a bargain and still controllable. Scwarber is a worthwhile asset no matter what, and should be locked up on a 3yr plus team option deal. A question might be what trade value (presumably higher) Verdugo has vs. Renfroe. Renfroe can maintain this years performance, and cut down on errors. You can’t compare him to Judge, but look at numbers from other top RFs, and you’ll see that he’s a bargain. Maybe you even teach Dalbec LF. He opted in after 2019 so I see know reason why he’s not opting in this year. I’d be surprised if he didn’t. Nothing shocks me but this would be close. I agree on JD he's not likely to opt out and I'd be shocked. I cant see anyone giving him the 19 million he's slated to make in his final year and I don't see why he'd want to take a 3 year 45 million deal which I think is his ceiling. He'd only need to get 13 million aav in each of the next 2 years after to break even and he can probably do better going year to year.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Oct 14, 2021 12:04:25 GMT -5
The only free agent we are talking about is Schwaber and he’s not some older guy who caught magic. I don’t think bringing him back would be the same as in 2018. Also, remember when we all thought the Eovaldi contract was a mistake after that 2018 season? Yet, here we are and the guy is by far the most important pitcher they got. This team wouldn’t have been in the playoff race without him let alone playing in the ALCS. The comment I was responding to asked "is it possible to bring everyone back". That would include Schwarber and JD, along with Erod and the other free agents, and it would mean no trades from the MLB roster. I just don't see Bloom running it back like that, there will undoubtedly be changes even if the majority of the roster remains the same. It obviously depends the individual team situation, but in general I think running back the same roster is generally suboptimal to tinkering with the idea of improving. For the record, I love watching Schwarber and would love to see him stay if the money works.
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 14, 2021 12:12:44 GMT -5
The only free agent we are talking about is Schwaber and he’s not some older guy who caught magic. I don’t think bringing him back would be the same as in 2018. Also, remember when we all thought the Eovaldi contract was a mistake after that 2018 season? Yet, here we are and the guy is by far the most important pitcher they got. This team wouldn’t have been in the playoff race without him let alone playing in the ALCS. The comment I was responding to asked "is it possible to bring everyone back". That would include Schwarber and JD, along with Erod and the other free agents, and it would mean no trades from the MLB roster. I just don't see Bloom running it back like that, there will undoubtedly be changes even if the majority of the roster remains the same. It obviously depends the individual team situation, but in general I think running back the same roster is generally suboptimal to tinkering with the idea of improving. For the record, I love watching Schwarber and would love to see him stay if the money works. Gotcha, I can see them running back most of the same positional players, including Schwaber and JD. They don’t really have a say in JDs decision and i don’t think they’ll let his one year affect their desires on Schwaber. There will be changes on the pitching staff though and there should be. If Erods value has plummeted then i can see a one year pillow contract with him, but outside if that, they should move on from him.
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 14, 2021 14:29:41 GMT -5
I think they need either a 2nd baseman or a cf and Hernandez play which ever they don't get. Can't trust Arroyo to stay healthy all year. Other than that I'd expect them to bring back just about everyone else. Time will tell on Schwarber and jd though for sure.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 14, 2021 14:31:09 GMT -5
OK let's make sure we're at least starting somewhat on the topic of Schwarber. Thanks.
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Post by carl4sox on Oct 15, 2021 10:42:17 GMT -5
Schwarbs should definitely be resigned. Not only because of his production, but because of his leadership position. We can live with him and JD for one year. As for second base, Arroyo and resign Jose. He's been a revelation. Concentrate on pitching other than those two.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 15, 2021 15:20:49 GMT -5
I think there is somewhat of an underappreciation for how good of a hitter Schwarber is. ZiPS projects him to hit .241/.343/.525 (.366 wOBA) for the rest of the season, which is among the top 30 in MLB and effectively on par with Devers (.371 wOBA), Bogaerts (.370 wOBA) and Martinez (.361 wOBA). He's not a Cody Ross or Steve Pearce platoon/depth piece. He's a legitimate All-Star caliber hitter who you make space for on the roster. Yeah, I was about to make this exact point when done reading the thread. We just got a 4th monster bat, that some people seemed to think that Renfroe was, even though he has a 101 wRC+ for the season. And btw, his wOBA in July has been .271.
That would be a monster platoon (Schwarber/Renfroe) with Verdugo in RF vs RHP and Schwarber in LF.
If the Red Sox trade Renfroe, because of money at 7/8m a year, after being under the tax for 2 straight years then we need a revolt. I’m not saying they should spend stupidly, but if I hear about the tax being a barrier for them next year, I’ll lose my mind. If you stay under it, and build a great team and sign good contracts and walk away from bad ones, then so be it. But if you’re unwilling to give a good player a solid value contract because of the tax line then they need to be ridiculed for that. It's not just a question of penny-pinching; I'm sure the idea would be that you could upgrade from Renfroe, who is probably a bit overrated by the arb process (and fans/media, in my opinion). Schwarber would certainly be an upgrade on Renfroe, or they could get someone else. I will go on the record and say that this is the new Renfroe. I think he learned something this year and might even get better. Just a full season of him doing what he has for the last 4 months would be a very good season. Who are you going to replace him with that won't be a lot more than his arb number? Nobody I love that I called this the day after the trade was made. But why not both as a platoon? However, I don't think Schwarber would be able to handle an entire season in the field. He's a huge guy who doesn't seem too athletic so I think he needs more time at DH and 1B to reduce the wear his body is taking. I wouldn't be surprised to see JDM and/or Dalbec traded if someone makes a decent offer to make room for him. Keeping his bat in the lineup is a luxury that the Red Sox can afford. All that needs to be done is to not be like DDo and bid against yourself like they did with JDM, who had no other serious offers other than from the Red Sox.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Oct 17, 2021 21:31:01 GMT -5
Personally, I’m not sure JD even opts-in. Unless you’re talking #2 Starter type, trading Renfroe makes little sense. At $7-8 that’s still a bargain and still controllable. Scwarber is a worthwhile asset no matter what, and should be locked up on a 3yr plus team option deal. A question might be what trade value (presumably higher) Verdugo has vs. Renfroe. Renfroe can maintain this years performance, and cut down on errors. You can’t compare him to Judge, but look at numbers from other top RFs, and you’ll see that he’s a bargain. Maybe you even teach Dalbec LF. He opted in after 2019 so I see no reason why he’s not opting in this year. I’d be surprised if he didn’t. Nothing shocks me but this would be close. JD will opt-in if for no other reason than Dior the uncertainty of the CBA.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 18, 2021 10:21:01 GMT -5
He opted in after 2019 so I see no reason why he’s not opting in this year. I’d be surprised if he didn’t. Nothing shocks me but this would be close. JD will opt-in if for no other reason than Dior the uncertainty of the CBA. Eau de Labor, the new scent from Dior.
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