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Patriots 2021 season thread
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on Sept 19, 2021 15:46:00 GMT -5
Good win, PLENTY to work on
Important to remember that some of the sloppiness is the product of limited practice time together and a shortened preseason. A lot of teams are looking similarly.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 19, 2021 18:09:13 GMT -5
Brady with 9 passing TDs in 2 games. wtf
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on Sept 19, 2021 19:08:13 GMT -5
Brady with 9 passing TDs in 2 games. wtf 3 #1 WR and a HOF TE will do that for ya He’s a football computer at this point, if you put him with good pieces he’s going to succeed no matter what
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 19, 2021 22:06:23 GMT -5
Because Herron sucks too and apparently so does Wynn I've never seen either look as bad as Durant did and you have options. Give Cajuste a try or heck move Onwenu back to RT and play Karras at OG.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 19, 2021 22:09:09 GMT -5
No one talking about that run by Harris? TV announcers said seven broken tackles and it basically seemed like the whole team.
They are going to have to go vertical more often or things will get worse.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on Sept 19, 2021 23:09:53 GMT -5
Because Herron sucks too and apparently so does Wynn I've never seen either look as bad as Durant did and you have options. Give Cajuste a try or heck move Onwenu back to RT and play Karras at OG. I think the latter is their best offensive line combination at the moment and it’s probably not that close. Not sure what the hesitancy is to go to it.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2021 5:31:23 GMT -5
Couple things… hard to go vertical with no protection.
That probably is the best combination, but Onwenu has been at guard the entire preseason and camp, it’s a change you can make but it’s not one you just make on the fly when your plan clearly was for at least Herron to be capable at tackle.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 20, 2021 6:10:56 GMT -5
Why are we acting like Herron was the problem? The three first half sacks were with Durant, why is he playing? That was the worst first half I've seen from an OT in a long time. What did we think, the Chiefs were just going to dump a good young OT?
Well it's a catch 22, without going vertical more, you'll see more pressure. If you keep everything short, you get teams to play like last year.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 20, 2021 10:11:10 GMT -5
No one talking about that run by Harris? TV announcers said seven broken tackles and it basically seemed like the whole team. They are going to have to go vertical more often or things will get worse. One thing that may be overlooked on that play is Mac Jones being one of the main guys pushing him into the endzone at the end.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2021 11:47:01 GMT -5
Why are we acting like Herron was the problem? The three first half sacks were with Durant, why is he playing? That was the worst first half I've seen from an OT in a long time. What did we think, the Chiefs were just going to dump a good young OT? Well it's a catch 22, without going vertical more, you'll see more pressure. If you keep everything short, you get teams to play like last year. Herron was the reason Durant started in the first place so yea he’s a problem. Wynn is a problem, Mason’s pass-blocking is a problem. The line as a unit has been an issue these first 2 games. This is supposed to be the strength of the team. You’re right about the catch 22, but we need good line play to start with then we can start blaming the QB for not taking shots or the OC for not drawing up different plays. They need Trent Brown back and Wynn to start balling and then things should greatly improve.
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Post by foreverred9 on Sept 20, 2021 11:56:53 GMT -5
Why are we acting like Herron was the problem? The three first half sacks were with Durant, why is he playing? That was the worst first half I've seen from an OT in a long time. What did we think, the Chiefs were just going to dump a good young OT? Well it's a catch 22, without going vertical more, you'll see more pressure. If you keep everything short, you get teams to play like last year. I'm sure they're thinking about it, but I suspect they are going to play as conservative with Mac as possible to give them a win. Unfortunately last week that back-fired, but to be fair they had the game won if they held onto the ball at the end. I suspect it'll look a lot like 2001 with few verticals but when they do I'd expect it on a play action pass with 1-on-1 coverage. Something safe so Mac doesn't do what Wilson did yesterday. They'll try to control the rush with screens and runs, but it won't look like the 2007-2017 Brady years on offense. One watch area to me is the FGs vs. TDs, we haven't seen them be able to punch it in much this year. As it stands now, I wish could pick up Folk in my fantasy teams.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 20, 2021 13:27:04 GMT -5
Why are we acting like Herron was the problem? The three first half sacks were with Durant, why is he playing? That was the worst first half I've seen from an OT in a long time. What did we think, the Chiefs were just going to dump a good young OT? Well it's a catch 22, without going vertical more, you'll see more pressure. If you keep everything short, you get teams to play like last year. Herron was the reason Durant started in the first place so yea he’s a problem. Wynn is a problem, Mason’s pass-blocking is a problem. The line as a unit has been an issue these first 2 games. This is supposed to be the strength of the team. You’re right about the catch 22, but we need good line play to start with then we can start blaming the QB for not taking shots or the OC for not drawing up different plays. They need Trent Brown back and Wynn to start balling and then things should greatly improve. I thought the OL was fine against that Dolphins team, Herron didn't give up a sack and still hasn't on the year. Durant has given up two and was part of the reason on another. No more sacks after Herron came back in. If I had to guess Bill inserted Durant because of his size in the run game, yet you have Onwenu if you want a monster RT to replace Brown. Another issue I've notice is always using the TEs as receivers. Old school Patriots just bring in a blocking TE to help the line. I'm kinda shocked Asiasi hasn't dressed for a game. Yet it really does come back to the OL because they are carrying so many guys. Why not try Cajuste? If he's not ready to help, them why is he on the team? Yet it still comes back to stretching the field. The Jets played like Cam was the QB, we dare you to beat us deep, we're stopping the run and blitzing the QB. That's going to make it hard on any OL, especially when you aren't using TEs to help block on pass plays. It also needs to be said, Mac Jones isn't yet close to a Tom Brady in the pocket. He's good for a rookie, yet his go to move is to always back pedal. He's got to get better moving up and side to side in the pocket.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 20, 2021 13:35:54 GMT -5
Why are we acting like Herron was the problem? The three first half sacks were with Durant, why is he playing? That was the worst first half I've seen from an OT in a long time. What did we think, the Chiefs were just going to dump a good young OT? Well it's a catch 22, without going vertical more, you'll see more pressure. If you keep everything short, you get teams to play like last year. I'm sure they're thinking about it, but I suspect they are going to play as conservative with Mac as possible to give them a win. Unfortunately last week that back-fired, but to be fair they had the game won if they held onto the ball at the end. I suspect it'll look a lot like 2001 with few verticals but when they do I'd expect it on a play action pass with 1-on-1 coverage. Something safe so Mac doesn't do what Wilson did yesterday. They'll try to control the rush with screens and runs, but it won't look like the 2007-2017 Brady years on offense. One watch area to me is the FGs vs. TDs, we haven't seen them be able to punch it in much this year. As it stands now, I wish could pick up Folk in my fantasy teams. In a way I get it, yet I also don't think the 2001 formula works now. I'm not calling for 2007 onward either. Just you have to be able to get vertical or the defense will bunch up and do what the Jets did. It's a passing league.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2021 17:09:29 GMT -5
Herron was the reason Durant started in the first place so yea he’s a problem. Wynn is a problem, Mason’s pass-blocking is a problem. The line as a unit has been an issue these first 2 games. This is supposed to be the strength of the team. You’re right about the catch 22, but we need good line play to start with then we can start blaming the QB for not taking shots or the OC for not drawing up different plays. They need Trent Brown back and Wynn to start balling and then things should greatly improve. I thought the OL was fine against that Dolphins team, Herron didn't give up a sack and still hasn't on the year. Durant has given up two and was part of the reason on another. No more sacks after Herron came back in. If I had to guess Bill inserted Durant because of his size in the run game, yet you have Onwenu if you want a monster RT to replace Brown. Another issue I've notice is always using the TEs as receivers. Old school Patriots just bring in a blocking TE to help the line. I'm kinda shocked Asiasi hasn't dressed for a game. Yet it really does come back to the OL because they are carrying so many guys. Why not try Cajuste? If he's not ready to help, them why is he on the team? Yet it still comes back to stretching the field. The Jets played like Cam was the QB, we dare you to beat us deep, we're stopping the run and blitzing the QB. That's going to make it hard on any OL, especially when you aren't using TEs to help block on pass plays. It also needs to be said, Mac Jones isn't yet close to a Tom Brady in the pocket. He's good for a rookie, yet his go to move is to always back pedal. He's got to get better moving up and side to side in the pocket. Herron was so bad against the Dolphins he had to get benched for Durant. Durant actually played pretty well the rest of that game which is why he got the start. It’s irrelevant that he wasn’t charged with a sack.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on Sept 20, 2021 17:55:55 GMT -5
I feel like they would kick Onwenu outside if Brown was going to miss serious time, so they opted to keep the continuity at the other positions and put together a patchwork RT for a game or two
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 20, 2021 17:59:18 GMT -5
Did Herron get benched or did they rotate them like Bill said was his plan? I certainly remember the announcer saying they were switching them in and out. Yet I certainly don't remember any crazy negative plays out of Herron besides a holding call.
While PFF only says two, multiple other places charge Durant with all three sacks and that's what I thought. Maybe you think Sacks are irrelevant, yet three sacks in less than a half is about as bad as it gets. Herron comes in and no more sacks.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 20, 2021 19:49:19 GMT -5
Did Herron get benched or did they rotate them like Bill said was his plan? I certainly remember the announcer saying they were switching them in and out. Yet I certainly don't remember any crazy negative plays out of Herron besides a holding call. While PFF only says two, multiple other places charge Durant with all three sacks and that's what I thought. Maybe you think Sacks are irrelevant, yet three sacks in less than a half is about as bad as it gets. Herron comes in and no more sacks. Two different games… Herron was terrible against Miami, got benched. Durant actually played well. Opposite happened against the Jets.
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Sept 21, 2021 9:55:20 GMT -5
The Athletic promoted Jeff Howe to National Football writer and the new Patriots guy, Matthew Fairburn is pretty weak so far. Howe earned the promotion, but I miss his mix of stats/data along with great storytelling. He would summarize DL pressures/hits and OL performance in a quick digestible tweet each week.
Mike Reiss seems restricted from outshining the rest of the ESPN beat reporters (you might notice he moved his practice/game notes to a twitter picture instead of additional ESPN article), and Pats Pulpit isn't as strong as when Rich Hill was there. Any recommendations for another Pats read? I like Andrew Callahan on twitter but am not adding a Herald subscription.
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Post by texs31 on Sept 21, 2021 10:00:07 GMT -5
Try Evan Lazar. Doesn't require a subscription and he provides some of the statistical analysis that Howe used to (OL stats, Defensive pressure and coverage). Not sure if they are his own or if they come from other sources tbh, but it's free so you don't have to pay to see if it's something you find useful/meaningful.
I have a sub to BSJ and Bedard's stats differ so it's interesting to see how the tape can be reviewed differently.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Sept 21, 2021 10:14:17 GMT -5
Try Evan Lazar. Doesn't require a subscription and he provides some of the statistical analysis that Howe used to (OL stats, Defensive pressure and coverage). Not sure if they are his own or if they come from other sources tbh, but it's free so you don't have to pay to see if it's something you find useful/meaningful. I have a sub to BSJ and Bedard's stats differ so it's interesting to see how the tape can be reviewed differently. www.clnsmedia.com/advanced-stats-report-patriots-mac-jones-ranks-31st-in-air-yards-through-two-games/ That's perfect, exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Good stats, good conclusions without overreacting or overstating. I've seen others retweet Lazar before, but didn't think/need to look deeper. Thanks! What is CLNS media? I've seen some of them post on Celtics Blog at SB Nation. But I can't figure out what it really is.
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Post by texs31 on Sept 21, 2021 10:32:23 GMT -5
Try Evan Lazar. Doesn't require a subscription and he provides some of the statistical analysis that Howe used to (OL stats, Defensive pressure and coverage). Not sure if they are his own or if they come from other sources tbh, but it's free so you don't have to pay to see if it's something you find useful/meaningful. I have a sub to BSJ and Bedard's stats differ so it's interesting to see how the tape can be reviewed differently. www.clnsmedia.com/advanced-stats-report-patriots-mac-jones-ranks-31st-in-air-yards-through-two-games/ That's perfect, exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Good stats, good conclusions without overreacting or overstating. I've seen others retweet Lazar before, but didn't think/need to look deeper. Thanks! What is CLNS media? I've seen some of them post on Celtics Blog at SB Nation. But I can't figure out what it really is. I'm assuming it's just a blogging platform. Not that relevant but Evan received some national "acclaim" this pre-season as, during a Zoom call, his dog was barking while he asked BB a question. Bill got all warm and fuzzy (downright playful) and the clip appeared on ESPN and others spots.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 21, 2021 11:52:55 GMT -5
Did Herron get benched or did they rotate them like Bill said was his plan? I certainly remember the announcer saying they were switching them in and out. Yet I certainly don't remember any crazy negative plays out of Herron besides a holding call. While PFF only says two, multiple other places charge Durant with all three sacks and that's what I thought. Maybe you think Sacks are irrelevant, yet three sacks in less than a half is about as bad as it gets. Herron comes in and no more sacks. Two different games… Herron was terrible against Miami, got benched. Durant actually played well. Opposite happened against the Jets. So you're saying the announcers were wrong they didn't rotate those two in the Miami game? They don't track players in and out in the boxscore like Basketball and frankly I didn't notice either player outside a holding call that Herron had. Which is frankly what you want from your OL. You seem to be going to extreme measures to say Durant last game was equal to Herron in the first game. So what were Herrons crazy negative plays? I'm not even trying to say Herron was anything special, yet allowing three sacks in the fashion Durant did in less than a half is about as bad as it gets. You can't compare them. What stands out is that it wasn't one great player, he just couldn't stop anyone. The Jets targeted him, that's the biggest negative for any player in my book. I'd also point out Herron played mostly LT last year, Onwenu played mostly RT. Lot of the same players, yet they are learning new positions and how to gel as a unit in there new roles. So Herron improving is exactly what you want to see. Nevermind learning how to adjust to a totally different QB and a totally different offense. I'm really not worried about our OL besides what I just watched from Durant. That will mess with a QBs head and might get him injured.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 21, 2021 14:54:12 GMT -5
Two different games… Herron was terrible against Miami, got benched. Durant actually played well. Opposite happened against the Jets. So you're saying the announcers were wrong they didn't rotate those two in the Miami game? They don't track players in and out in the boxscore like Basketball and frankly I didn't notice either player outside a holding call that Herron had. Which is frankly what you want from your OL. You seem to be going to extreme measures to say Durant last game was equal to Herron in the first game. So what were Herrons crazy negative plays? I'm not even trying to say Herron was anything special, yet allowing three sacks in the fashion Durant did in less than a half is about as bad as it gets. You can't compare them. What stands out is that it wasn't one great player, he just couldn't stop anyone. The Jets targeted him, that's the biggest negative for any player in my book. I'd also point out Herron played mostly LT last year, Onwenu played mostly RT. Lot of the same players, yet they are learning new positions and how to gel as a unit in there new roles. So Herron improving is exactly what you want to see. Nevermind learning how to adjust to a totally different QB and a totally different offense. I'm really not worried about our OL besides what I just watched from Durant. That will mess with a QBs head and might get him injured. All I said was Herron being bad in Miami and Durant being solid is why Durant started last game. I’ll send pics of PFF grades for each of them for both game and you’ll see it lines up with what I said. The combo has been a train wreck so far.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 21, 2021 14:55:00 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 21, 2021 14:55:20 GMT -5
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