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Bruins '22 Offseason Thread
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Post by texs31 on May 14, 2022 18:27:15 GMT -5
Hate that I'm starting this already. BIG offseason ahead.
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Post by homerdante on May 14, 2022 18:37:09 GMT -5
Repost from last page of season thread:
Are Neely and Sweeney the guys? I don't know, do you:
I'm asking myself some questions today about the past dozen or so Bruins years where Neely and Sweeney have been running the ship.
I'm asking myself:
Was Taylor Hall the answer?
Was the package for Seguin at all good?
Was Coyle the right acquisition?
David Backes was clearly NOT, and hamstrung the team financially for years.
Letting Krug go? No quarterback on the powerplay?
It SEEMS like they're good at running a good program in Providence. Great at identifying possible AAAA players to make a really good AHL team.
Was the 2015 draft their fault?
Final question in light of the above: Are they any good at evaluating talent?
Maybe it was not poor talent evaluation, but poor coaching evaluation?
I honestly don't know, but there's a real apathy and lethargy with this team that surfaces again and again. Something hasn't been right, what is it? (this isn't the final game, or the final series, this is a resurfacing problem, over and over again with the core of this team.)
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on May 14, 2022 21:38:10 GMT -5
I think Neely/Sweeney are pretty average at their jobs. I think Cassidy is actually pretty good but didn’t really have the horses. He’s also been here for a bit now and if they do ultimately want to rebuild I would start anew everywhere
Probably all depends on what Bergeron wants to do
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Post by homerdante on May 14, 2022 22:24:02 GMT -5
I think Neely/Sweeney are pretty average at their jobs. I think Cassidy is actually pretty good but didn’t really have the horses. He’s also been here for a bit now and if they do ultimately want to rebuild I would start anew everywhere Probably all depends on what Bergeron wants to do Right, it's the having the horses thing I'm talking about, more specifically, can the leadership even identify the horses? They seemed to think every veteran was going to miraculously resurrect their career here. Where's the Theo magic, or the Chaim Bloom Magic? Is that even a thing in the NHL? All questions... Also agreed regarding Bergeron. Without him it looks like it's time to blow it up. However, do you honestly trust these guys to draft well enough to rebuild? McAvoy is their only hit in a decade? Time to bring in new leadership is my guess.
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Post by foreverred9 on May 14, 2022 23:33:33 GMT -5
I get the importance of challenging the process going forward, but in hindsight I'm very pleased with the Bruins organization. In the past 12 years they have won 1 Stanley Cup, been to 2 others, won the Presidents Trophy in 2 other years. It's been a great run with Chara, Bergeron, Marchand, Rask, etc.
It could be worse, at least we're not Maple Leafs fans.
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Post by homerdante on May 15, 2022 19:59:35 GMT -5
I get the importance of challenging the process going forward, but in hindsight I'm very pleased with the Bruins organization. In the past 12 years they have won 1 Stanley Cup, been to 2 others, won the Presidents Trophy in 2 other years. It's been a great run with Chara, Bergeron, Marchand, Rask, etc. It could be worse, at least we're not Maple Leafs fans. Feels like it could have been better though, and like an all business do well in up economies scenario--i mean, With Bergeron here, Marchand, core, they weren't going to do worse, i.e. it's very hard to mess that up. I'm not saying the management made them collapse in the final games of the Stanley cups, but they have not identified talent well consistently. They put pieces around the core that were worse than JAGs in most cases, negative WAR types (whatever the hockey term is for it). Feels like Bergie and Marchand won despite poor management. I wanted 3-5 cups from this core, not barely one.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on May 15, 2022 21:20:29 GMT -5
I get the importance of challenging the process going forward, but in hindsight I'm very pleased with the Bruins organization. In the past 12 years they have won 1 Stanley Cup, been to 2 others, won the Presidents Trophy in 2 other years. It's been a great run with Chara, Bergeron, Marchand, Rask, etc. It could be worse, at least we're not Maple Leafs fans. Feels like it could have been better though, and like an all business do well in up economies scenario--i mean, With Bergeron here, Marchand, core, they weren't going to do worse, i.e. it's very hard to mess that up. I'm not saying the management made them collapse in the final games of the Stanley cups, but they have not identified talent well consistently. They put pieces around the core that were worse than JAGs in most cases, negative WAR types (whatever the hockey term is for it). Feels like Bergie and Marchand won despite poor management. I wanted 3-5 cups from this core, not barely one. That would put them up their with the Gretzky Oilers and Bossy Islanders, I think thats a stretch in a league driven by parity
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Post by voiceofreason on May 16, 2022 7:38:13 GMT -5
It would have been nice to win another Cup during these Bergy, Marchand years but it didn't happen. Whether you want to blame Tukka for not standing on his head as many do, not me. Or management for failing to build a better, deeper team. Or the fact that either via injuries or now age Bergy hasn't been a force in the playoffs like you need your best player to be. Suffice it to say that it was a combination of all those factors over the last 10 seasons.
I would have loved to see Krieji on this team centering Pasta and Hall, that might have made a difference. But hey give Carolina credit, they are a very good team and played a very good series.
As far as blowing it up as some have mentioned. The Hampus Lindholm signing now gives the B's a top Dman to go along with McAvoy that is top 5 in the league as a combination. Swaymen looks like he is a legit #1 that could be a top 5 goalie and they have made some nice moves this Spring in signing some very good college players and the pipeline is not empty. Are they a true contender moving forward, no I don't think so but a shrewd trade or some luck in drafting and I don't think they are that far away. At least not as far away as I thought before the Linholm signing and the other signings made over the last few months. Plus Lysell is a good lottery chip that could be a star, his speed plays well in todays NHL.
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Post by texs31 on May 16, 2022 9:19:01 GMT -5
I feel like the only play for them this offseason is:
- Move some salary from your "middle to bottom" depth. So Haula (with a caveat), 1 or more of Grz/Reilly/Forbort, maybe Ullmark as discussed elsewhere. - Convince Bergy to come back (KEY) - Get a legitimate #2 C (that's the caveat for trading Haula, need a replacement). Bringing back Krejci may be the only real option. - Extend Pasta - I'm not sure what happens with JDB. He was excellent in the playoffs and answered the "what can you offer if you're not scoring" question that Cassidy likes to ask. If you trade him, can you replace him?
Just feel like they need to make another run with Bergy at the top. Blowing it up makes no sense given they have a #1 G, McAvoy, a newly extended Lindholm, and Pasta and Marchand at various points within their elite prime. I also don't see a way they can really extend the window beyond Bergy bc they have nobody to C a top line.
2 curveball trade candidates are Coyle and Hall. Both make legit money. Have value (though, probably, with some debate on how much value relative to that money but still). But either could still create some room AND bring back assets. Not advocating or predicting but could see one of them moving on as a possibility.
And yes they need some non-first rounders to hit (both those already drafted and those to be made this year). We know about Lysell and Lohrei (and there is still mixed opions on the latter) but there would seem to be others in the system who are legit NHLers. But can any take another leap to be more than just 3rd/4th line/Bottom 4 pairs? Brett Harrison and Johnny Beecher are probably the most likely candidates but require significant improvement (possible but hard to bet on).
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Post by texs31 on May 16, 2022 9:34:34 GMT -5
1st move of the offseason as Boston has extended Jake Zboril.
If he could ever stay healthy, he's a reasonable bottom pair LHD (big IF, of course).
1.137 Cap hit. Further cements the need to move some LHD money (again, Grz/Forbort/Reilly).
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Post by texs31 on May 16, 2022 10:32:05 GMT -5
Move #2 as Beecher signs his ELC.
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Post by texs31 on May 16, 2022 15:54:05 GMT -5
Well, it just might be Reilly that's traded. Grz announcing he played with a dislocated shoulder and it needs surgery. Expects to miss the start of next season.
EDIT - Of course, it could also mean nobody gets traded and B's just use LTIR. Still wouldn't surprise if Reilly is traded and Ahcan is given a shot on the 2nd pair.
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Post by tizzle on May 16, 2022 16:15:58 GMT -5
I get the importance of challenging the process going forward, but in hindsight I'm very pleased with the Bruins organization. In the past 12 years they have won 1 Stanley Cup, been to 2 others, won the Presidents Trophy in 2 other years. It's been a great run with Chara, Bergeron, Marchand, Rask, etc. It could be worse, at least we're not Maple Leafs fans. Feels like it could have been better though, and like an all business do well in up economies scenario--i mean, With Bergeron here, Marchand, core, they weren't going to do worse, i.e. it's very hard to mess that up. I'm not saying the management made them collapse in the final games of the Stanley cups, but they have not identified talent well consistently. They put pieces around the core that were worse than JAGs in most cases, negative WAR types (whatever the hockey term is for it). Feels like Bergie and Marchand won despite poor management. I wanted 3-5 cups from this core, not barely one. 3-5 would be a lot. But in terms of current management (Sweeney) we got none. He was handed a team with three future Hall of Famers, all to be playing on decent contracts, and delivered one finals appearance. Just plain not good enough. He has a few good moves (though some with caveats- ie. Hall forcing his way here) a lot of bad ones and really one great one (drafting Charlie Mac). To me, the final straw was last offseason. With everyone seeing a closing window and the need for a final run, he chose a lot of mediocre players. The kinds of players who will get you a playoff run, but no needle movers to make a real run with. It was cowardly. A couple of star level players, a little cheap depth, and trusting some of your youngsters in a couple of spots would have been the play. Worse, it's arguable he paid millions for vets who were worse than the options that were already here. - Was Ullmark/Swayman better than Swayman/Halak (for example)? Possibly, though not by a whole lot. - Was Foligno better than Blidh/Steen? No, absolutely not. - Was Haula better than giving Studnicka a season to show what he could do? We'll never know. - Was Reilly better than just letting Zboril/Vaak play (with Moore as depth)? Not imo. And the astounding part of Sweeney's run is the way he overpays (in some cases wildly so) and yet still gives No-trade clauses (Coyle, Foligno, Ullmark). That to me is a sign of a guy who's lost. It's time for him to go.
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Post by texs31 on May 16, 2022 19:27:17 GMT -5
Just watched clips of the interview with Pasta. Outside of hoping he signs a big extension to stay with Boston long term, I hope he and his girlfriend find healing. So easy to forget what the human being(s) went through as we watch the athlete perform.
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2022 10:29:59 GMT -5
Based on Sweeney/Neely press conferences, it sounds like extending Sweeney is the intention. Neely had some strange comments about Cassidy (saying he's a fantastic coach but "we may need to change the way we coach").
Sounds like it could be a bit of an ultimatum to change styles or he's gone??
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on May 19, 2022 12:05:09 GMT -5
I think Cassidy is better at his job than Neely/Sweeney are at their jobs
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2022 12:16:21 GMT -5
Agreed but:
- Cassidy CAN be better than he is - Sweeney isn't as bad as everyone makes out
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Post by homerdante on May 19, 2022 12:48:06 GMT -5
Agreed but: - Cassidy CAN be better than he is - Sweeney isn't as bad as everyone makes out aside from hitting on McAvoy, and not doing something completely boneheaded--trading Marchand or Bergeron in their early prime--what has Sweeney done on the pros side of the pros/cons sheet?
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2022 13:03:32 GMT -5
- Contrary to popular belief, his 1st draft ('15) was good (it just SHOULD have been epic) - Taylor Hall - Lysell and Lohrei - Swayman - got Marchand/Bergy/Pasta/etc to sign below market deals - Lindholm a very good get (though, granted, it puts them in a weird spot right now) - Haula was more than one typically gets for 3M. Forbort was miscast early but exactly what a playoff team needs from a veteran 3rd pair D. Ullmark was an overpay (but you can do that when you have a rookie as the other half of your pair) but was key to their success. - Nash was just an unfortunate outcome
When the players play well, it's the players but when they play poorly, it's on the GMs. I'd also argue that doing what he did with an owner who seems to be in it only for the concessions is no easy task.
I'm not saying he's above criticism. He's not. He's just below the LEVEL of criticism he receives.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on May 19, 2022 13:17:50 GMT -5
I’d say Sweeney is a very middle of the road GM and Cassidy is a pretty good coach. Just my opinion.
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2022 13:31:36 GMT -5
I think that's fair.
On Cassidy, I'd like to believe he learned from the JDB season. A great leader doesn't lead everyone the same way. People are different and to get the most out of them, you need to lead them differently. Many have a hard time understanding the difference between "consistent" and "the same". Not sure if that happened exactly that way with Jake or not.
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Post by homerdante on May 19, 2022 22:36:48 GMT -5
- Contrary to popular belief, his 1st draft ('15) was good (it just SHOULD have been epic) - Taylor Hall - Lysell and Lohrei - Swayman - got Marchand/Bergy/Pasta/etc to sign below market deals - Lindholm a very good get (though, granted, it puts them in a weird spot right now) - Haula was more than one typically gets for 3M. Forbort was miscast early but exactly what a playoff team needs from a veteran 3rd pair D. Ullmark was an overpay (but you can do that when you have a rookie as the other half of your pair) but was key to their success. - Nash was just an unfortunate outcome When the players play well, it's the players but when they play poorly, it's on the GMs. I'd also argue that doing what he did with an owner who seems to be in it only for the concessions is no easy task. I'm not saying he's above criticism. He's not. He's just below the LEVEL of criticism he receives. Thanks for the list. In fairness, Swayman should be on my list as well, at least for now and hopefully into the future. --Taylor Hall does not look like a win to me. 20 goals a year for 6 mill feels overpaid to me. Combined with disappearing in the playoffs, generally speaking (-11 in the playoffs for his career). Everyone keeps hoping for lightning in the jar with him magically coming back, but I don't see it. He is what he is, and that's overpaid. Coyle is what he is, and that's overpaid. Sweeney is part of that dreaming on old potentials crowd that never pans out. Sunk Cost, move on please. --Lysell looks good so far in amateur, let's see if it translates. --Below market deals, ok, again, in fairness, he did accomplish that, but then he used what financial flexibility that could have gotten him HORRIBLY. Signs Backes to big money and too many years. --Let's see how Lindholm holds up, he's showing injury prone tendencies, which is perhaps why he was let go. --Haula looks like a possible good acquisition, but last offseason tips negative with Nosek and Foligno signings. Some spaghetti stuck, but high cost to see one stick, two JAGs. --I still think Ullmark was a heroic failure overall due to limited financial flexibility last off-season. Vladar/Swayman might very well have worked, but we'll never know. Sweeney seems like a veterans are safe sort of guy with a bad ability to create a meaningful player development structure. It just seems to me that upside with him is so limited, rolling the dice on a younger skilled talent evaluator seems like it would be a MUCH stronger play right now. I honestly think he's enough below average you move on. Not 10th percentile--which as you suggest might be the noise out there--but firmly 30th percentile type who you can almost certainly do better than.
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2022 22:50:08 GMT -5
I appreciate the response Lots to absorb. One thing I have ultimate confidence in. There isn't a single GM/Org who would go into a season in the tail end of a contending window with 2 rookies. You have a problem with the Ullmark contract, that's fine. But don't give me Swayman/Vladar as your evidence. No GM, under the circumstances, makes that call.
I'll dig into the rest later but, at a quick glance, it feels like we compare "our" players/coaches/execs to our own expectations and NOT to their peers. The issue isn't whether or not Sweeney has fallen short of our expectations/hopes (he has). It's whether there is someone put there who could/would do better.
If there is, great. I'm in. Otherwise you're just making an emotional decision and could easily end up with a GM who is, decidedly, worse.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,854
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Post by cdj on May 19, 2022 23:13:08 GMT -5
Yeah I think it’s needs to be seconded how preposterous the notion that they should have tried to compete for a cup with Swayman/Vladar is
Would have been an unfathomably bad decision
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Post by homerdante on May 20, 2022 1:20:10 GMT -5
I appreciate the response Lots to absorb. One thing I have ultimate confidence in. There isn't a single GM/Org who would go into a season in the tail end of a contending window with 2 rookies. You have a problem with the Ullmark contract, that's fine. But don't give me Swayman/Vladar as your evidence. No GM, under the circumstances, makes that call. I'll dig into the rest later but, at a quick glance, it feels like we compare "our" players/coaches/execs to our own expectations and NOT to their peers. The issue isn't whether or not Sweeney has fallen short of our expectations/hopes (he has). It's whether there is someone put there who could/would do better. If there is, great. I'm in. Otherwise you're just making an emotional decision and could easily end up with a GM who is, decidedly, worse. I want to be clear, I don't dislike Ullmark, I dislike Ullmark at 5 mill per year. Feels like an overpay to me--like Sweeney got played by his agent. "There are 3 more teams interested..." I simply mention Swayman/Vladar is not a sure fire slam dunk, but as an alternative to dumping 5 million into the goalie position that didn't need to be there. There are a lot of guys on this list who outperformed him for less: www.spotrac.com/nhl/free-agents/2021/goaltender/ufa/I can see the rationale for not going with Swayman/Vladar, I just didn't like the outcome we ended up with. I'm not advocating for hiring some other GM tomorrow, I'd advocate for a thorough GM search and hiring a well vetted candidate by people who know what they're doing. However, at this point, is that Neely? No idea...
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