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7/11-7/14 Red Sox @ Rays Series Thread
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 14, 2022 22:27:36 GMT -5
Its honestly a fireable offense to me how badly Bloom has mismanaged the first base situation and the outfield. We have two left fielders and no CF or RF, and we’re banking on Kiké getting healthy even though he was sporting a .600 OPS even when healthy.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jul 14, 2022 22:30:28 GMT -5
Are we allowed to be negative tonight? What does Sox Prozac Nation say about this? I just want to make sure I follow the rules. I'd be careful. I made what a thought was a common-sense observation on July 4 that the RS were headed for a tough stretch and that it wasn't out of the question they could be a seller at the deadline. What I got back was that these games were a golden chance to gain ground and (yippie!) that Brian Bello was about to make his first start. They're 2W's-8L's since then.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 14, 2022 22:30:50 GMT -5
Its honestly a fireable offense to me how badly Bloom has mismanaged the first base situation and the outfield. We have two left fielders and no CF or RF, and we’re banking on Kiké getting healthy even though he was sporting a .600 OPS even when healthy. What would your approach to 1B have been?
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cdj
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Posts: 15,646
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Post by cdj on Jul 14, 2022 22:34:20 GMT -5
Its honestly a fireable offense to me how badly Bloom has mismanaged the first base situation and the outfield. We have two left fielders and no CF or RF, and we’re banking on Kiké getting healthy even though he was sporting a .600 OPS even when healthy. Yeah man, crazy that they counted on a guy with like 5 WAR last year that dominated the playoffs and he’s injured now (and yes he was rounding into form). Totally should fire him. It’s silly to say they didn’t have a plan for CF.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 14, 2022 22:35:29 GMT -5
Its honestly a fireable offense to me how badly Bloom has mismanaged the first base situation and the outfield. We have two left fielders and no CF or RF, and we’re banking on Kiké getting healthy even though he was sporting a .600 OPS even when healthy. What would your approach to 1B have been? Sign Josh Bell, obviously...
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,646
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Post by cdj on Jul 14, 2022 22:37:25 GMT -5
Darwinzon since becoming a 1 inning guy in Worcester in the last couple of weeks (majors and minors)
4.1 IP 2 H 0 R 2 BB 8 K
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Post by manfred on Jul 14, 2022 22:38:34 GMT -5
Its honestly a fireable offense to me how badly Bloom has mismanaged the first base situation and the outfield. We have two left fielders and no CF or RF, and we’re banking on Kiké getting healthy even though he was sporting a .600 OPS even when healthy. What would your approach to 1B have been? People say that, but to paraphrase Dr. Johnson, one need not know how to make a table to say when a table is poorly made. The Sox combined bWAR at 1b is behind only Detroit in the AL. Rightfield they are last. So in both instances the answer is almost anything. I get that things are complicated, but at some point either Bloom and/or Cora are at fault or players like Dalbec, who still has defenders here, has let them down. But it seems hard to say Bloom did fine, Cora is doing fine, and Dalbec and the OF are all ok, too. If that is the case… why don’t they win?
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Post by incandenza on Jul 14, 2022 23:02:03 GMT -5
What would your approach to 1B have been? People say that, but to paraphrase Dr. Johnson, one need not know how to make a table to say when a table is poorly made. The Sox combined bWAR at 1b is behind only Detroit in the AL. Rightfield they are last. So in both instances the answer is almost anything. I get that things are complicated, but at some point either Bloom and/or Cora are at fault or players like Dalbec, who still has defenders here, has let them down. But it seems hard to say Bloom did fine, Cora is doing fine, and Dalbec and the OF are all ok, too. If that is the case… why don’t they win? Bloom is not beyond criticism, but the claim was that his handling of 1B was a firable offense. I'll grant criticisms of the OF construction, considering Bloom actively deducted value from RF in the off-season. But if you want to criticize 1B you have to explain a) what move you would have made to add to the position, and b) where you would have subtracted from elsewhere on the roster or farm system in order to make that move.
The team spent over the CBT threshold this season, and in light of that it's just boring to say "well they should have simply gotten more good players." What should they have sacrificed to get those players? If that question can't be answered then I'm not real interested in the criticism.
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Post by manfred on Jul 14, 2022 23:16:32 GMT -5
People say that, but to paraphrase Dr. Johnson, one need not know how to make a table to say when a table is poorly made. The Sox combined bWAR at 1b is behind only Detroit in the AL. Rightfield they are last. So in both instances the answer is almost anything. I get that things are complicated, but at some point either Bloom and/or Cora are at fault or players like Dalbec, who still has defenders here, has let them down. But it seems hard to say Bloom did fine, Cora is doing fine, and Dalbec and the OF are all ok, too. If that is the case… why don’t they win? Bloom is not beyond criticism, but the claim was that his handling of 1B was a firable offense. I'll grant criticisms of the OF construction, considering Bloom actively deducted value from RF in the off-season. But if you want to criticize 1B you have to explain a) what move you would have made to add to the position, and b) where you would have subtracted from elsewhere on the roster or farm system in order to make that move.
The team spent over the CBT threshold this season, and in light of that it's just boring to say "well they should have simply gotten more good players." What should they have sacrificed to get those players? If that question can't be answered then I'm not real interested in the criticism.
Well, fireable might be strong. But as far as what to do… for one thing, it is amazing Franchy was the backup… he was awful last year AND he isn’t a first baseman. So going all in on Dalbec was a huge risk. They could have signed someone like Daniel Vogelbach and been much better for it, even if he’s not a star. The Schw——r who will not be named? A small trade to get an average guy? I have enough confidence in the FO that they would not be helpless in getting a passable player.
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Post by notstarboard on Jul 14, 2022 23:18:57 GMT -5
This team could well be better to close out the year, even without trade deadline improvements, than at any point so far this year. Sale + Paxton alone is a huge deal, not to mention getting the rest of our injured starters back. They suck at the moment, managerial malpractice aside, because the starting rotation has been mostly AAA depth for 2+ weeks and meanwhile we're facing only likely playoff teams. The position side of the ball is a complete mess. Devers is hurt and playing through a bad back. Kiké is out indefinitely. Too many players playing out of position like Franchy and Duran. All you have is Verdugo, Devers, JDM, Xander, and Vazquez who might be due for a regression (haven't checked his BABip numbers but I'm sure they agree). If "all you have" is five productive offensive players you're in great shape lol. You could really add Refsnyder to that list, and Arroyo was raking before his IL stint too. Franchy and Duran are both cold now but both were positive contributors as little as a week or two ago. This team is 4th in the league in runs, at least as of a day or two ago, and they haven't really lost anyone who had been productive on the year.
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Post by cheers on Jul 14, 2022 23:36:17 GMT -5
Darwinzon since becoming a 1 inning guy in Worcester in the last couple of weeks (majors and minors) 4.1 IP 2 H 0 R 2 BB 8 K I'm not a Darwinzon fan (because he could very possibly walk my middle aged a**), but he is PERFECT for extra innings when you've got a base open anyway.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 14, 2022 23:40:56 GMT -5
Bloom is not beyond criticism, but the claim was that his handling of 1B was a firable offense. I'll grant criticisms of the OF construction, considering Bloom actively deducted value from RF in the off-season. But if you want to criticize 1B you have to explain a) what move you would have made to add to the position, and b) where you would have subtracted from elsewhere on the roster or farm system in order to make that move.
The team spent over the CBT threshold this season, and in light of that it's just boring to say "well they should have simply gotten more good players." What should they have sacrificed to get those players? If that question can't be answered then I'm not real interested in the criticism.
Well, fireable might be strong. But as far as what to do… for one thing, it is amazing Franchy was the backup… he was awful last year AND he isn’t a first baseman. So going all in on Dalbec was a huge risk. They could have signed someone like Daniel Vogelbach and been much better for it, even if he’s not a star. The Schw——r who will not be named? A small trade to get an average guy? I have enough confidence in the FO that they would not be helpless in getting a passable player. Yeah I guess I'm not ready to run Bloom out of town because he didn't sign Dan Vogelbach. As for "a small trade to get an average guy," you're just back at "they should have simply gotten more good players." What "small trade" can you make to get an average MLB first baseman? Which one would you get, and who would you have given up to get them? Anthony Rizzo is pretty much the definition of average - he's 16th in fWAR at the position. Would you have beat the Yankees' 2/32 offer for him?
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Post by notstarboard on Jul 14, 2022 23:44:40 GMT -5
Its honestly a fireable offense to me how badly Bloom has mismanaged the first base situation and the outfield. We have two left fielders and no CF or RF, and we’re banking on Kiké getting healthy even though he was sporting a .600 OPS even when healthy. It's honestly not even close. Coming into the year it felt like a fair option to give Dalbec some run. He is making league minimum, had ended 2021 hot, and had a slightly above average bat over 2020 and 2021. Casas was expected to be in the mix by mid-season too. We're only in this spot because Bobby regressed massively and Casas has missed a ton of time with an injury. Bloom could just as easily have signed a 1B who then got injured and left the 1B situation feeling thin. Or Casas could have stayed healthy and could be the starting 1B right now, in which case signing a 1B would have been a waste. As for OF, Kiké Hernandez was worth 5 WAR last year and has also been injured for several weeks. With a player like that in CF, even somewhat diminished, the OF situation would feel a ton better. Verdugo LF, Kiké CF, JBJ/Refsnyder in RF, Duran and Cordero for depth, some JDM or Arroyo spot starts if needed. It is not the GM's job to put an infallible team on the field that will always keep productive players at every position regardless of injuries and underperformance. Even the most dominant teams do not have that. It's always a balance of trying to build a competitive team this year while also building for the future. I am not saying that Bloom is perfect and I have not agreed with every more or non move he has made. Still, it's just incorrect to see poor production from RF and 1B, ignore the context that led it to be so, and call for the GM's head.
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Post by manfred on Jul 15, 2022 0:05:01 GMT -5
Well, fireable might be strong. But as far as what to do… for one thing, it is amazing Franchy was the backup… he was awful last year AND he isn’t a first baseman. So going all in on Dalbec was a huge risk. They could have signed someone like Daniel Vogelbach and been much better for it, even if he’s not a star. The Schw——r who will not be named? A small trade to get an average guy? I have enough confidence in the FO that they would not be helpless in getting a passable player. Yeah I guess I'm not ready to run Bloom out of town because he didn't sign Dan Vogelbach. As for "a small trade to get an average guy," you're just back at "they should have simply gotten more good players." What "small trade" can you make to get an average MLB first baseman? Which one would you get, and who would you have given up to get them? Anthony Rizzo is pretty much the definition of average - he's 16th in fWAR at the position. Would you have beat the Yankees' 2/32 offer for him? Well, I guess that argument can be used for any scenario — there is nothing one can say in response. The Royals are bad, but what could they do? So… I’ll say I don’t believe the lineup as it is was destiny. That’s the best I can do. Add: my only point with Vogelbach was he signed for $1 million and would be a 1.5 bWAR swing at this point over Dalbec. So it wasn’t like it required an expensive FA to be better. Maybe not him… but it was possible. That is just one alternative.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 15, 2022 0:41:48 GMT -5
Yeah I guess I'm not ready to run Bloom out of town because he didn't sign Dan Vogelbach. As for "a small trade to get an average guy," you're just back at "they should have simply gotten more good players." What "small trade" can you make to get an average MLB first baseman? Which one would you get, and who would you have given up to get them? Anthony Rizzo is pretty much the definition of average - he's 16th in fWAR at the position. Would you have beat the Yankees' 2/32 offer for him? Well, I guess that argument can be used for any scenario — there is nothing one can say in response. The Royals are bad, but what could they do? So… I’ll say I don’t believe the lineup as it is was destiny. That’s the best I can do. Add: my only point with Vogelbach was he signed for $1 million and would be a 1.5 bWAR swing at this point over Dalbec. So it wasn’t like it required an expensive FA to be better. Maybe not him… but it was possible. That is just one alternative. I just don't get the argument. There's a perfectly good case for various criticisms of Bloom. He subtracted vaue in RF without replacing it. He spent too much on Barnes, leaving fewer resources for the rest of the bullpen. He should've signed Schwarber or Suzuki instead of Story. You could make a case for any of those criticisms. But "he should have done... something better... at 1B" is just vacuous.
And like okay, maybe Bloom should have had greater wisdom than all other GMs in the game, who universally regarded Vogelbach (career 0.5 WAR) as worthy of little more than a league minimum salary. If you predicted Vogelbach would have a career year, kudos. But I think it's more interesting to ask: did Bloom's approach to 1B make sense as part of an overall roster building strategy? Obviously you think it didn't. So what would have made more sense?
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Post by greenmonster on Jul 15, 2022 6:30:50 GMT -5
Are we allowed to be negative tonight? What does Sox Prozac Nation say about this? I just want to make sure I follow the rules. I don't know. But I tuned into the NESN postgame show to see what they thought and immediately got hit by them all scoffing at any questioning of Cora's managing, then I thought "oh, yeah, these guys are worthless. I am almost forgot" and turned it off. I tuned into the post-game show as well. Was surprised by the passion shown by Jim Rice as he was clearly frustrated by the approach of the hitters...."They gotta stop upper cutting and put the ball in play" ..."Hit the ball where it is pitched" It wasn't his normal matter of fact tone but clear frustration. At least that's the way I took it unless it was my own frustration filtering what I was hearing.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jul 15, 2022 6:59:52 GMT -5
*Bill Lumbergh voice*
If we could just.....go ahead and stop embarrassing ourselves as a team....yeah that'd be good.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 15, 2022 7:37:25 GMT -5
Its honestly a fireable offense to me how badly Bloom has mismanaged the first base situation and the outfield. We have two left fielders and no CF or RF, and we’re banking on Kiké getting healthy even though he was sporting a .600 OPS even when healthy. What would your approach to 1B have been? Rizzo is they pulled the trigger last year. Schwarber. Dalbec's first call up and that 2 month hot streak last year was detrimental to this club because Bloom had every reason to believe Dalbec was a suitable, cheap stopgap to Casas with the potential of Schwarber's current numbers. Now he's showing he's not even replacement level and Casas got hurt. I'll also acknowledge that having either of those guys might have prevented them from signing Story where he has been brilliant with the glove and streaky with the bat. There's not much Bloom could have done unless he made an early in-season trade for someone like Bell. At this point, you lost the division early in the season and with the 3 Wild Card spots it made sense to give players like Dalbec as much leash as possible because the regular season barely matters. Baltimore is a fun story, but they'll fade away. Kiké is a great CFer who got hurt. JBJ is a defensive specialist filling in until he's back. They gave Duran a chance who continues to fail the opportunities given to him.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 15, 2022 7:48:45 GMT -5
Kiké was playing terribly even before he was hurt, his power and speed both look cooked.
We should’ve ended the Dalbec experiment awhile ago but for some inexplicable reason he is getting high leverage at bats still and we have a 1B with a .600 OPS and bad defense.
Getting an average guy to play first should not be that hard to figure out how to do.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 15, 2022 7:51:43 GMT -5
One thing I will say though is Suzuki picked the Cubs, we did not have a choice to sign him really. Schwarber got paid a lot and we already had a DH only player. Those were both reasonable non signings. Bloom doesn’t generally make bad signings I will give him that. I would say trades too but the Benintendi trade was a bad one.
My point is that Bloom’s decision-making on 1B and the OF have not been good or even reasonable.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jul 15, 2022 8:25:24 GMT -5
Another pen meltsdown. There must been 20 of them this year. No Worries, Bloom will address this at the trade deadline......You know, AFTER the toughest stretch of the season is over. This comment doesn't make much sense to me. In order to make a trade, other teams have to be interested, and most teams aren't going to be making trades this far out from the deadline. As far as I can tell there have only been two, and one of them was for a draft pick. It wouldn't surprise me if he were trying, but why would teams be incentivized to sell this early? Doesn't seem like a logical complaint.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,011
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Post by mobaz on Jul 15, 2022 8:31:49 GMT -5
One thing I will say though is Suzuki picked the Cubs, we did not have a choice to sign him really. Schwarber got paid a lot and we already had a DH only player. Those were both reasonable non signings. Bloom doesnât generally make bad signings I will give him that. I would say trades too but the Benintendi trade was a bad one. My point is that Bloomâs decision-making on 1B and the OF have not been good or even reasonable. I still think Jackie being same/better than Renfroe this season was not an outlandish projection (factoring in D, and potential Renfroe regression since he did fade as the year went along), plus we got depth prospects. My problem is Arroyo being counted on as 4th OF knowing Jackie was high variance, Kiké might be due for regression, and Duran/Franchy were huge question marks at best. At 1b, Dalbec + Shaw (remember him?) + MAYBE Casas will be ready + Franchy in a pinch is not a plan, nor would I consider that meaningful depth. Hell, in a pinch they could have used Fitzgerald and not been worse off, so our "depth" bought us nothing.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 15, 2022 8:47:38 GMT -5
Okay, no one complaining about 1B is willing to offer an alternative course of action, apparently. So let me try: the Mariners didn't give up much to get Carlos Santana from KC, and Bloom surely could have beaten their offer if he wanted to. Santana was worth 0.3 WAR with a wRC+ in the high 80s in 2020-21, but he's bounced back a little this season with a 112 wRC+. He costs $9 million and is a free agent at the end of the year.
Should Bloom have gotten Santana to replace Dalbec?
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jul 15, 2022 8:53:36 GMT -5
Okay, no one complaining about 1B is willing to offer an alternative course of action, apparently. So let me try: the Mariners didn't give up much to get Carlos Santana from KC, and Bloom surely could have beaten their offer if he wanted to. Santana was worth 0.3 WAR with a wRC+ in the high 80s in 2020-21, but he's bounced back a little this season with a 112 wRC+. He costs $9 million and is a free agent at the end of the year. Should Bloom have gotten Santana to replace Dalbec? I was certainly screaming for it in the trade forum.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 15, 2022 8:55:40 GMT -5
Okay, no one complaining about 1B is willing to offer an alternative course of action, apparently. So let me try: the Mariners didn't give up much to get Carlos Santana from KC, and Bloom surely could have beaten their offer if he wanted to. Santana was worth 0.3 WAR with a wRC+ in the high 80s in 2020-21, but he's bounced back a little this season with a 112 wRC+. He costs $9 million and is a free agent at the end of the year. Should Bloom have gotten Santana to replace Dalbec? I'd say yes he probably should have tried to get him but I'm pretty meh on it at the same time.
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