ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,008
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 26, 2022 14:57:08 GMT -5
Whitlock? You teach him a cutter, which is an easy pitch to learn ... and he picked up a tougher pitch to learn, his current change, very quickly in ST last year.
You then watch him become at least a #2 starter.
As a starting pitcher, he's still a prospect, correct? Where would you rank him compared to Bello et al?
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Post by manfred on Jul 26, 2022 15:00:16 GMT -5
Whitlock? You teach him a cutter, which is an easy pitch to learn ... and he picked up a tougher pitch to learn, his current change, very quickly in ST last year.
You then watch him become at least a #2 starter.
As a starting pitcher, he's still a prospect, correct? Where would you rank him compared to Bello et al?
Maybe next season they could start Whitlock and ease Bello in with a bullpen stop, hope he can have similar success (not *the same*, as that is too much to ask). Bello looks potentially pretty dominant to me.
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Post by benzinger on Jul 26, 2022 15:02:30 GMT -5
Wasn’t the immortal Ryan Lavarnway batting cleanup for the Sox at the end of that season? That’s how I remember it anyway. Too many painkillers for Tito in those days, I think. Yep, but he did have 2 HR in the 2nd to last game which they won. I remember he was(somehow) viewed as a bit of a savior down the stretch. Those were the only 2 HR’s he hit in 2011. Strange days....
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jul 26, 2022 15:05:58 GMT -5
Let's just hope that we don't turn Whitlock into Daniel Bard. Or that time they tried Papelbon starting. IF Whitlock is one of the best relievers in the MLB as he has shown he can be VS if he is a number three or four starter who gets hurt after 80-100 innings regularly THEN what would be more valuable? We know the first if is pretty true, but the second if we do not know he is a top of the rotation or if he is a #4 who gets hurt at 100 innings regularly.
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shagworthy
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My neckbeard game is on point.
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Post by shagworthy on Jul 26, 2022 15:13:45 GMT -5
Let's just hope that we don't turn Whitlock into Daniel Bard. Or that time they tried Papelbon starting. Time for our regular reminder that Bard was already starting to fall apart in September 2011 and had already failed dramatically as a starter in the minors prior to becoming a reliever in the first place before they tried to move him into the rotation in 2012. It's not like putting him into the major league rotation ruined an otherwise perfectly fine pitcher. As for Papelbon, I don't even think that lasted more than a couple weeks of ST before he asked to return to the bullpen, right? Not that he really profiled as a good starter with like 1.5 pitches either. Seriously though, what James said. You want your best pitchers pitching more, if they can and if they're still good. Interesting is that there are roughly as many 2.00 ERA relievers this year (34, min. 20 IP) as 3.00 ERA starters (31, min. 50 IP). ERA not the world's best stat but still. I'd only be worried about Whitlock if he suddenly couldn't find the plate. It was scary the demons Bard had in his head, for both him, and whoever was in the box. It's not an ideal comparison in my opinion.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jul 26, 2022 15:16:49 GMT -5
Let's just hope that we don't turn Whitlock into Daniel Bard. Or that time they tried Papelbon starting. Time for our regular reminder that Bard was already starting to fall apart in September 2011 and had already failed dramatically as a starter in the minors prior to becoming a reliever in the first place before they tried to move him into the rotation in 2012. It's not like putting him into the major league rotation ruined an otherwise perfectly fine pitcher. As for Papelbon, I don't even think that lasted more than a couple weeks of ST before he asked to return to the bullpen, right? Not that he really profiled as a good starter with like 1.5 pitches either. Seriously though, what James said. You want your best pitchers pitching more, if they can and if they're still good. Interesting is that there are roughly as many 2.00 ERA relievers this year (34, min. 20 IP) as 3.00 ERA starters (31, min. 50 IP). ERA not the world's best stat but still. “Seriously though, what James said. You want your best pitchers pitching more, if they can and if they're still good.” I totally agree with your premise! The huge question is, “Will he or most pitchers be as good starting as relieving, and can that pitcher REMAIN healthy and not currently on the DL. I would rather have a healthy, dominant reliever, than a pretty good starter on the DL.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jul 26, 2022 15:19:42 GMT -5
Time for our regular reminder that Bard was already starting to fall apart in September 2011 and had already failed dramatically as a starter in the minors prior to becoming a reliever in the first place before they tried to move him into the rotation in 2012. It's not like putting him into the major league rotation ruined an otherwise perfectly fine pitcher. As for Papelbon, I don't even think that lasted more than a couple weeks of ST before he asked to return to the bullpen, right? Not that he really profiled as a good starter with like 1.5 pitches either. Seriously though, what James said. You want your best pitchers pitching more, if they can and if they're still good. Interesting is that there are roughly as many 2.00 ERA relievers this year (34, min. 20 IP) as 3.00 ERA starters (31, min. 50 IP). ERA not the world's best stat but still. Conversely, I don't think Whitlock's rotation struggles were due to him being in the rotation as much as it was due to him dealing with an injury. I suspect he would have struggled had he been left in the pen as well. I still think his future is in the rotation but at this point the Sox don't have much choice with him this year. That is absolutely untrue that he would have struggled in the bullpen! With less innings taxing his hip, Whitlock may not even have had to go on the DL.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jul 26, 2022 15:22:00 GMT -5
Also it's no guarantee that someone shows the same effectiveness as a starter than as a reliever, based on the number of pitches one has or the average velocity based on typical number of pitches thrown per outing. I'm not saying that I don't trust the Sox, I've just seen them mess up a good thing before.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 26, 2022 15:23:08 GMT -5
Conversely, I don't think Whitlock's rotation struggles were due to him being in the rotation as much as it was due to him dealing with an injury. I suspect he would have struggled had he been left in the pen as well. I still think his future is in the rotation but at this point the Sox don't have much choice with him this year. That is absolutely untrue that he would have struggled in the bullpen! With less innings taxing his hip, Whitlock may not even have had to go on the DL. That's a guess. Just because we don't like what happened doesn't mean that they should have done something differently and the results automatically would have turned out different.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 26, 2022 15:23:46 GMT -5
Also it's no guarantee that someone shows the same effectiveness as a starter than as a reliever, based on the number of pitches one has or the average velocity based on typical number of pitches thrown per outing. I'm not saying that I don't trust the Sox, I've just seen them mess up a good thing before. What good thing did they mess up?
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Post by manfred on Jul 26, 2022 15:48:41 GMT -5
JDM is back. That is all.
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Post by taiwansox on Jul 26, 2022 15:53:58 GMT -5
JDM is back. That is all. Trade showcase
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 26, 2022 16:19:20 GMT -5
Bard fell apart in Sept 2011. He had that long scoreless appearance/innings streak that ended in August 2011. Everybody fell apart in September 2011. Everybody remembers the collapse in Sept 2011. Some people remember the final game in which they lead 3-2 with 2 outs in the 9th one out (strike) away from victory and the Orioles getting back to back doubles and that blooper that Crawford failed to catch. What people sometimes forget is that the Sox actually had runners at the corners with none out and the heart of the order up in the top of the 9th with a chance to put the game away and failed to score. Even David Ortiz failed to come through (for a rare time) in that situation. So if even Ortiz couldn't do it, then nobody else was going to either. They were destined to fail at that point. The perfect storm of everything going wrong. Thankfully, from a baseball perspective, two years later, they had the perfect storm of everything going right. And they still could've gotten into the playoffs in 2011 if Tampa had lost their last game. The Rays were playing NYY and...NYY lost after being up 6-0 in the 7th. Many Sox fans believe the NYY tanked it, including my wife and I, who were in Maui on our honeymoon and watching the game at the bar in a restaurant. Hard to believe the Sox would have knocked off the Rays had they gone to a Game 163. Those two teams were going in opposite directions and I don't even know if the Sox had a starter for Game 163. Weren't they trying to acquire Bruce Chen or something like that to start the game had it occurred? I remember that Yankees/Rays game. The Yankees had that 7-0 lead going into the 8th inning and the Rays scored 6 runs. The Yankees rested Mariano Rivera and went with Willie Banks to close out the 9th inning. He got the first two outs and got two quick strikes on Dan Johnson who then slammed the ball off the foul pole. The game went extra innings and the Yankees had a similar situation to the Sox in their half of the 9th where the Yankees put the go ahead run on 3b with none out (can't remember if it was runners on the corners or bases loaded or 2nd and 3rd), and the Yankees failed to score and then of course Longoria hit that short HR out to the LF corner to knock out the Red Sox minutes after Robert Andino's blooper fell off of Crawford's glove. And the Yankees fans laughed their a$$e$ off, never more happy to lose a game like that.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 26, 2022 16:21:12 GMT -5
Time for our regular reminder that Bard was already starting to fall apart in September 2011 and had already failed dramatically as a starter in the minors prior to becoming a reliever in the first place before they tried to move him into the rotation in 2012. It's not like putting him into the major league rotation ruined an otherwise perfectly fine pitcher. As for Papelbon, I don't even think that lasted more than a couple weeks of ST before he asked to return to the bullpen, right? Not that he really profiled as a good starter with like 1.5 pitches either. Seriously though, what James said. You want your best pitchers pitching more, if they can and if they're still good. Interesting is that there are roughly as many 2.00 ERA relievers this year (34, min. 20 IP) as 3.00 ERA starters (31, min. 50 IP). ERA not the world's best stat but still. I'd only be worried about Whitlock if he suddenly couldn't find the plate. It was scary the demons Bard had in his head, for both him, and whoever was in the box. It's not an ideal comparison in my opinion. Barnes seems like a lot more apt comparison for Bard than Whitlock would be. Like Bard, Barnes lost it suddenly, going from all-star to a guy who can't get little leaguers out (minus the conversion to starting pitcher). Maybe we'll see Barnes come back in 2030.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 26, 2022 16:23:42 GMT -5
I'd only be worried about Whitlock if he suddenly couldn't find the plate. It was scary the demons Bard had in his head, for both him, and whoever was in the box. It's not an ideal comparison in my opinion. Barnes seems like a lot more apt comparison for Bard than Whitlock would be. Like Bard, Barnes lost it suddenly, going from all-star to a guy who can't get little leaguers out (minus the conversion to starting pitcher). Maybe we'll see Barnes come back in 2030. I know how he can get some sticky stuff back on the ball (pro-tip: umpires never check the catcher). Have him call me and he'll be back to All-Star caliber in one game.
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cdj
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Posts: 15,646
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Post by cdj on Jul 26, 2022 17:07:21 GMT -5
Refsnyder 9 Verdugo 7 Bogaerts 6 Martinez DH Vazquez 3 Plawecki 2 Sanchez 4 Dalbec 5 Davis 8
oh boy. That bottom 4 is as bad as it gets.
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Post by benzinger on Jul 26, 2022 17:18:33 GMT -5
Refsnyder 9 Verdugo 7 Bogaerts 6 Martinez DH Vazquez 3 Plawecki 2 Sanchez 4 Dalbec 5 Davis 8 oh boy. That bottom 4 is as bad as it gets. You can’t beat an AL East team with a lineup like that. But AL Central? No problem.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jul 26, 2022 18:17:51 GMT -5
Winck fully sweating through his hat already haha.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 26, 2022 18:18:10 GMT -5
Winck fully sweating through his hat already haha. Dropping LOUD f bombs too lol
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jul 26, 2022 18:23:41 GMT -5
91-92 MPH from a guy who can’t pay to miss bats. Not great
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
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Post by radiohix on Jul 26, 2022 18:27:16 GMT -5
91-92 MPH from a guy who can’t pay to miss bats. Not great He's a nice spot starter to have in your AAA affiliate but certainly not your regular 5th SP.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 26, 2022 18:28:23 GMT -5
91-92 MPH from a guy who can’t pay to miss bats. Not great He was mostly 94 and hit 95.
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Post by manfred on Jul 26, 2022 18:29:01 GMT -5
I cannot believe Bryan Shaw is still pitching. I know he had a decent year last year, but…
Add: whaaa… did he hit 98? Wasn’t he totally shot a few years ago?
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,646
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Post by cdj on Jul 26, 2022 18:30:37 GMT -5
I cannot believe Bryan Shaw is still pitching. I know he had a decent year last year, but… MLB Career began in 98 I think, at the latest
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Post by benzinger on Jul 26, 2022 18:31:12 GMT -5
Whoa! Xander hit one all the way to the warning track!
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