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2023 40-Man Roster Discussion
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Post by scottysmalls on Feb 9, 2023 15:03:17 GMT -5
Maybe he wouldn't be thrilled about it but I don't think he has a real gripe given he was a below replacement level player last year. I really doubt it's something agents would hold against the Red Sox in future negotiations. It's the deal with young guys, play well enough or you get optioned. If he hits well enough in AAA he'll be back in the Majors in no time. Not in the same ballpark of poor optics/agent handling as say holding out Bello for 80 games to grab an extra year (not that you suggested that). I think you are way off base with how players perceive themselves and how agents deal for their clients. Dalbec played in 133 games in 2021 and 117 in 2022, whether or not he is good enough to be moving forward, he is by definition a "starting MLB first baseman". He's not going to think of himself as a below replacement level player. And his agent isn't going to focus on that either, he will focus on the multi-month stretch in 2021 where he was one of the better hitters in baseball. That's literally what he's paid to do. I am firmly confident that the Dalbec camp would be pretty unhappy if he were to be optioned. I'm not saying they're wrong to feel this way, it's completely natural, but almost all athletes think they are better than they are. And their agents are paid to get them contracts that are in line with their beliefs, not with reality. I'd imagine they've seen the writing on the wall so I imagine they've already been doing some work towards making a trade happen, which is part of the reason I'm so surprised it hasn't yet. Well I totally agree Dalbec will be unhappy about it, I just don't think that should change the team's planning whatsoever. I really don't believe that CAA will be so petty over a reasonable demotion that it would cost the Red Sox with other players down the road. If agents started making demands and punishing teams for fair decisions over players of his caliber I think they'd have a bigger issue with teams not wanting to work with them than vice versa. Dalbec just needs to play better, if he hits in AAA he'll be promoted or traded. Or if some team believes in him more enough that they want him on their MLB roster more than the Red Sox want him as depth they'll trade something to make it worthwhile. It's a business and he can either accept that or not but it shouldn't force the Red Sox to do something that's not in their best interest.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 9, 2023 15:22:54 GMT -5
I think you are way off base with how players perceive themselves and how agents deal for their clients. Dalbec played in 133 games in 2021 and 117 in 2022, whether or not he is good enough to be moving forward, he is by definition a "starting MLB first baseman". He's not going to think of himself as a below replacement level player. And his agent isn't going to focus on that either, he will focus on the multi-month stretch in 2021 where he was one of the better hitters in baseball. That's literally what he's paid to do. I am firmly confident that the Dalbec camp would be pretty unhappy if he were to be optioned. I'm not saying they're wrong to feel this way, it's completely natural, but almost all athletes think they are better than they are. And their agents are paid to get them contracts that are in line with their beliefs, not with reality. I'd imagine they've seen the writing on the wall so I imagine they've already been doing some work towards making a trade happen, which is part of the reason I'm so surprised it hasn't yet. Well I totally agree Dalbec will be unhappy about it, I just don't think that should change the team's planning whatsoever. I really don't believe that CAA will be so petty over a reasonable demotion that it would cost the Red Sox with other players down the road. If agents started making demands and punishing teams for fair decisions over players of his caliber I think they'd have a bigger issue with teams not wanting to work with them than vice versa. Dalbec just needs to play better, if he hits in AAA he'll be promoted or traded. Or if some team believes in him more enough that they want him on their MLB roster more than the Red Sox want him as depth they'll trade something to make it worthwhile. It's a business and he can either accept that or not but it shouldn't force the Red Sox to do something that's not in their best interest. It's not pettiness, it's part of the business. A lot of this depends on how the Red Sox have responded/will respond to what the Dalbec camp wants. If they ask for a trade and the Red Sox are like "nah we're just gonna keep you in AAA and there's not really much you can do about it", then it's absolutely something that would be a consideration in future dealings between the Sox and the agency. Also, I think it's pretty clearly in the Red Sox's best interest to get value for him while they still can, as I don't even think he should be the third option at first right now. I've known plenty of people on both sides of the aisle (team side and agency side - and technically the athlete side, too), there is a lot less rationality then you would think.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Feb 9, 2023 15:28:21 GMT -5
You guys are crazy, Dalbec is on the verge of being DFA'd he's a AAAA player, you think the Red Sox give a rat's ass what Dalbec or his agents think when it boils down to what's best for the team? The sox DFA'd Eric Hosmer a guy who has kind of a better track record than Dalbec and Hosmer was playing basically for free. This is crazy talk, yeah Dalbec can boo hoo himself all the way to Worcester it doesn't matter a lick and his agents aren't going to care, all they care about is getting a percentage of the next big contract signing, they arent gonna loose sleep over a guy making the MLB minimum, and the Red Sox are a Cash cow that throws around a lot of money. Oh my god, you think they worry about offended agents?
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Post by scottysmalls on Feb 9, 2023 16:11:36 GMT -5
Well I totally agree Dalbec will be unhappy about it, I just don't think that should change the team's planning whatsoever. I really don't believe that CAA will be so petty over a reasonable demotion that it would cost the Red Sox with other players down the road. If agents started making demands and punishing teams for fair decisions over players of his caliber I think they'd have a bigger issue with teams not wanting to work with them than vice versa. Dalbec just needs to play better, if he hits in AAA he'll be promoted or traded. Or if some team believes in him more enough that they want him on their MLB roster more than the Red Sox want him as depth they'll trade something to make it worthwhile. It's a business and he can either accept that or not but it shouldn't force the Red Sox to do something that's not in their best interest. It's not pettiness, it's part of the business. A lot of this depends on how the Red Sox have responded/will respond to what the Dalbec camp wants. If they ask for a trade and the Red Sox are like "nah we're just gonna keep you in AAA and there's not really much you can do about it", then it's absolutely something that would be a consideration in future dealings between the Sox and the agency. Also, I think it's pretty clearly in the Red Sox's best interest to get value for him while they still can, as I don't even think he should be the third option at first right now. I've known plenty of people on both sides of the aisle (team side and agency side - and technically the athlete side, too), there is a lot less rationality then you would think. To punish the Red Sox for putting a player who deserves to be in AAA in AAA would be pettiness on the agents behalf. They can't force the Red Sox to make a trade that's not in the team's best interest over Bobby Dalbec. Sure they can ask and the team can pursue a trade, but if there's nothing available more valuable to them than Dalbec as insurance then they should keep him. He might be third in line at first but if any of Casas, Turner, or Devers gets hurt he's on the roster playing at minimum as the short end of a platoon.
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Post by joshuacoffee on Feb 9, 2023 16:21:56 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse on this, but ya, if Dalbec want to be on the major league roster, he needs to hit the ball more often. It's not like he's a grizzled vet of 10 years with a great or even solid career who deserves respect for being productive for so long. He's got less than 1,000 total ABs, a career .1 WAR, had been bad in the field, and of the 2 seasons he's had more than 100 ABs one of them, the most recent, he was really bad pretty consistently and the other was ok overall but very streaky. There's no reason to accuse the Sox of trying to manipulate service time. There's no chance anyone, other than maybe Dalbec, would feel like it's unreasonable for him to be in the minors. Now, CAA probably should posture themselves as standing up for their player, but in reality, if they wanted to die on the hill of trying to force teams to roster players in the majors who clearly are fringe players at best (and though they won't and shouldn't admit that they know that about Dalbec, they do, they are not dumb) they wouldn't be able to do business with any teams.
Performance is king, and Dalbec hasn't been performing. Trying to pass him off as an undeniable starting MLB first baseman is laughable. Which MLB team would he start for this year? He had the 35th best OPS for a 1st baseman with 100+ ABs last year while playing bad defense. There were 3 Boston 1st basemen with better OPS's. There's a difference between being supportive of your client and being delusional. Being delusional is actually bad for your clients, so agencies tend to try to avoid that. Best case for him (and Boston), is that someone want a RH bench bat who will hit the ball a long when on one of the few occasions that he hits it, and they are will to give up a minimally decent prospect or two to get that. That's probably not going to happen though. Which tells you all you need to know about Dalbec's value to a team.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 9, 2023 16:23:14 GMT -5
It's not pettiness, it's part of the business. A lot of this depends on how the Red Sox have responded/will respond to what the Dalbec camp wants. If they ask for a trade and the Red Sox are like "nah we're just gonna keep you in AAA and there's not really much you can do about it", then it's absolutely something that would be a consideration in future dealings between the Sox and the agency. Also, I think it's pretty clearly in the Red Sox's best interest to get value for him while they still can, as I don't even think he should be the third option at first right now. I've known plenty of people on both sides of the aisle (team side and agency side - and technically the athlete side, too), there is a lot less rationality then you would think. To punish the Red Sox for putting a player who deserves to be in AAA in AAA would be pettiness on the agents behalf. They can't force the Red Sox to make a trade that's not in the team's best interest over Bobby Dalbec. Sure they can ask and the team can pursue a trade, but if there's nothing available more valuable to them than Dalbec as insurance then they should keep him. He might be third in line at first but if any of Casas, Turner, or Devers gets hurt he's on the roster playing at minimum as the short end of a platoon. YOU think he deserves to be in AAA, I think that, but the agent doesn't. So why is that pettiness and not simply a difference of opinion? If everyone viewed every player the same way, this would all be pretty boring. There's also plenty of room for the Red Sox to be "petty" here. I don't really think you're looking at this objectively here, more so from the perspective that the Red Sox should just do what's best for the Red Sox in a vacuum no matter what with no gray area. And that's fine for you to think that way, you're a Red Sox fan being a fan, but that gray area not only exists but is where most of these situations lie. I'm basing these assumptions based on things that I know to be true about the industry. It doesn't make me right, my assumptions could be off in this instance. Maybe Dalbec is fine with being demoted, maybe his agency is comfortable letting his contract run out and then pursuing options as a free agent. But the place I'm coming from isn't just me being fan, it's from relatively solid, albeit somewhat anecdotal, information. But this is all a complete hypothetical anyway, so I don't really have that much more on it. Maybe they haven't asked for the trade yet, maybe they never will at all. Maybe the Red Sox have been actively shopping him but haven't found anyone willing to give them a semi-reasonable price (in which case the Sox are 100% in the right, I definitely don't think they should trade him for a bag of baseballs or anything so I hope that wasn't misconstrued). Maybe they didn't get any interest at all! Though I find that unlikely, he makes a lot of sense for a bad team looking to take on a lottery ticket in a platoon role. The fact that we have no idea what their process has been is why I'm not criticizing Bloom and co. for not having done it yet (after the rants I've thrown out here on making definitive statements on incomplete information, that would be ironic). I just can't grasp a realistic scenario in which this doesn't all come to a head with Dalbec getting moved, and think it's in the Sox's best interest on multiple levels and in multiple different scenarios to do so. I don't expect him to get a 45 FV prospect back or anything, but I would be pretty surprised if no one was willing to give up at least something of minor relevance.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 9, 2023 16:54:03 GMT -5
I'd be surprised if they didn't ťry to shop him this offseason. My guess is the interest was tepid. Would you want your team to trade something of value for Dalbec? Dalbec has options, he's on league-minimum salary, and he's insurance for Turner/Devers/Casas. Isn't he quite useful for the Red Sox, even if they start him in Worcester? I don't think Dalbec or, most importantly, his agent, would be too thrilled about him getting demoted to AAA. Making good with agents (especially when it's CAA) definitely matters, and it's not great optics. Eh. The dude hit .215/.283/.369 with a "career low" 33% K rate in 350 plate appearances last year. It's not like they're just gaming his service time when he otherwise would be up. There's a legit argument day playing every day in AAA is better for his trade value than riding the MLB bench too. I don't think this is a concern. You can't just keep an inferior player on the roster because you're scared of making his agent mad. He's also completely redundant with Turner. Edit: Sorry, didn't realize I wasn't on the last page but point stands - they're not going to make a roster decision because Dalbec and his agent might get butthurt about it.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Feb 9, 2023 16:57:56 GMT -5
Dude, you have no more "industry" information than the rest of us. If you thought you had some, you really let the cat out of the bag with these posts. You're acting like agents and a AAAA player are equal to THE BOSTON RED SOX, they aren't. Dalbec is barely Arb two, He and his agents desperately need the Red Sox, he should go to triple A and say "Thank you sir, may I have another" if he's demoted. This isn't a Red Sox fan being a Red Sox fan, I'd agree with you if you were right..... You're not, You're so far off its silly.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 9, 2023 17:14:12 GMT -5
I'd be surprised if they didn't ťry to shop him this offseason. My guess is the interest was tepid. Would you want your team to trade something of value for Dalbec? I don't think Dalbec or, most importantly, his agent, would be too thrilled about him getting demoted to AAA. Making good with agents (especially when it's CAA) definitely matters, and it's not great optics. Eh. The dude hit .215/.283/.369 with a "career low" 33% K rate in 350 plate appearances last year. It's not like they're just gaming his service time when he otherwise would be up. There's a legit argument day playing every day in AAA is better for his trade value than riding the MLB bench too. I don't think this is a concern. You can't just keep an inferior player on the roster because you're scared of making his agent mad. He's also completely redundant with Turner. Edit: Sorry, didn't realize I wasn't on the last page but point stands - they're not going to make a roster decision because Dalbec and his agent might get butthurt about it. If I were a team that was not expected to contend this year and didn’t have an established quality first basemen I’d 100% call on Dalbec. Worst case he’s bad and your team outlook doesn’t change at all, best case he starts off the year hot and you try to flip him at the deadline for a net positive value. The Marlins literally just did with this Barnes so I don’t see what’s so difficult to fathom about it. You can take pretty much anyone ranked from 31-60 on this site and I’d be fine trading them for Dalbec if I were in one of those team’s positions. Also, by using words like “pettiness” or “butthurt” y’all are entirely missing the mark on this. THIS. IS. THEIR. JOB. They are literally paid to do nothing but jockey for their clients to be in the best possible situation. This is not me suggesting the Red Sox should take pity on Bobby because he feels bad, all I’m saying is that if he requests a trade (key word: if) that it is in their best interest for multiple reasons - those being getting some sort of value while he still might (key word: might) have any value at all and maintaining a good relationship with the agency - to at least make an attempt to fulfill the request (key word: attempt). What I’m suggesting would be “bad business” would be if a trade request was made and the Sox iced them out by saying “lol nah you have no leverage, good luck”. There is a ton of room in between that and where they might be now where they are not in the wrong for not trading him, all I’m doing is presenting a set of hypotheticals.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Feb 9, 2023 17:30:42 GMT -5
It's not bad business, it's just business.
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Post by julyanmorley on Feb 9, 2023 17:34:44 GMT -5
You're really overthinking this. Dalbec is an up and down bench bat for the Sox, and that's about the best he could do anywhere else. If there were a handful of teams really excited to give him 500 major league PAs this year, the Red Sox would be ecstatic to trade him somewhere that values him more.
Demanding a trade when you're about three bad weeks away from not being on any team's 40 man roster is not a good career move.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 9, 2023 17:37:46 GMT -5
I'd be surprised if they didn't ťry to shop him this offseason. My guess is the interest was tepid. Would you want your team to trade something of value for Dalbec? Eh. The dude hit .215/.283/.369 with a "career low" 33% K rate in 350 plate appearances last year. It's not like they're just gaming his service time when he otherwise would be up. There's a legit argument day playing every day in AAA is better for his trade value than riding the MLB bench too. I don't think this is a concern. You can't just keep an inferior player on the roster because you're scared of making his agent mad. He's also completely redundant with Turner. Edit: Sorry, didn't realize I wasn't on the last page but point stands - they're not going to make a roster decision because Dalbec and his agent might get butthurt about it. If I were a team that was not expected to contend this year and didn’t have an established quality first basemen I’d 100% call on Dalbec. Worst case he’s bad and your team outlook doesn’t change at all, best case he starts off the year hot and you try to flip him at the deadline for a net positive value. The Marlins literally just did with this Barnes so I don’t see what’s so difficult to fathom about it. You can take pretty much anyone ranked from 31-60 on this site and I’d be fine trading them for Dalbec if I were in one of those team’s positions.Also, by using words like “pettiness” or “butthurt” y’all are entirely missing the mark on this. THIS. IS. THEIR. JOB. They are literally paid to do nothing but jockey for their clients to be in the best possible situation. This is not me suggesting the Red Sox should take pity on Bobby because he feels bad, all I’m saying is that if he requests a trade (key word: if) that it is in their best interest for multiple reasons - those being getting some sort of value while he still might (key word: might) have any value at all and maintaining a good relationship with the agency - to at least make an attempt to fulfill the request (key word: attempt). What I’m suggesting would be “bad business” would be if a trade request was made and the Sox iced them out by saying “lol nah you have no leverage, good luck”. There is a ton of room in between that and where they might be now where they are not in the wrong for not trading him, all I’m doing is presenting a set of hypotheticals. I'm open to the argument that Dalbec might have more value as a trade asset than as a righty bench bat/injury insurace for the corner infielders but if they traded him for a prospect in the 30-60 range I'd lose my mind.
Which is kind of funny, because it means you simultaneously think his self-regard is so high that the team can't risk hurting his and his agent's feelings by demoting him, but his actual value is so low that he could be traded for the fringiest of prospects. (Also fwiw, I've never gotten big ego vibes from Dalbec so I'd be especially surprised if he demanded this sort of coddling.)
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 9, 2023 17:52:45 GMT -5
If I were a team that was not expected to contend this year and didn’t have an established quality first basemen I’d 100% call on Dalbec. Worst case he’s bad and your team outlook doesn’t change at all, best case he starts off the year hot and you try to flip him at the deadline for a net positive value. The Marlins literally just did with this Barnes so I don’t see what’s so difficult to fathom about it. You can take pretty much anyone ranked from 31-60 on this site and I’d be fine trading them for Dalbec if I were in one of those team’s positions.Also, by using words like “pettiness” or “butthurt” y’all are entirely missing the mark on this. THIS. IS. THEIR. JOB. They are literally paid to do nothing but jockey for their clients to be in the best possible situation. This is not me suggesting the Red Sox should take pity on Bobby because he feels bad, all I’m saying is that if he requests a trade (key word: if) that it is in their best interest for multiple reasons - those being getting some sort of value while he still might (key word: might) have any value at all and maintaining a good relationship with the agency - to at least make an attempt to fulfill the request (key word: attempt). What I’m suggesting would be “bad business” would be if a trade request was made and the Sox iced them out by saying “lol nah you have no leverage, good luck”. There is a ton of room in between that and where they might be now where they are not in the wrong for not trading him, all I’m doing is presenting a set of hypotheticals. I'm open to the argument that Dalbec might have more value as a trade asset than as a righty bench bat/injury insurace for the corner infielders but if they traded him for a prospect in the 30-60 range I'd lose my mind.
Which is kind of funny, because it means you simultaneously think his self-regard is so high that the team can't risk hurting his and his agent's feelings by demoting him, but his actual value is so low that he could be traded for the fringiest of prospects. (Also fwiw, I've never gotten big ego vibes from Dalbec so I'd be especially surprised if he demanded this sort of coddling.)
I don’t think there’s as much of a correlation between how good a player is and how much the team/agency cares about the process as many here think. If an agent or agency thinks the Red Sox are acting in bad faith, whether It’s Xander Bogaerts or Bobby Dalbec the level of player is not going to matter as much as the (again, hypothetical) infraction. If anything, I’d argue the correlation would be the other way because deals for good players are a little easier to get done (both parties are generally more incentivized) whereas an agent has to work a lot harder to find avenues for players on the margins. Not saying I fully believe in that, but I think it’s just as reasonable as the alternative that has been floated a couple times here. Also, just so I’m clear, you’d “lose your mind” if you were a fan of a team that traded, say, Alex Binelas for Bobby Dalbec? Binelas having Dalbec’s MLB career would represent an upper-percentile outcome, I think you’re overvaluing the prospects in that range.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Feb 9, 2023 17:55:08 GMT -5
If Dalbec demanded a trade his agent would say " shut up kid, you're making it impossible for me to ever sell your services"
Talent. Is everything.
Dalbec right now has about the value of a PTBNL or Cash Considerations
Absolutely the player matters agents are not moralists, a guy like Xander signs a huge contract and the agent cashes in. He obviously would get preferential treatment ...and what infraction
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Feb 9, 2023 18:07:17 GMT -5
You guys are crazy, Dalbec is on the verge of being DFA'd he's a AAAA player, you think the Red Sox give a rat's ass what Dalbec or his agents think when it boils down to what's best for the team? The sox DFA'd Eric Hosmer a guy who has kind of a better track record than Dalbec and Hosmer was playing basically for free. This is crazy talk, yeah Dalbec can boo hoo himself all the way to Worcester it doesn't matter a lick and his agents aren't going to care, all they care about is getting a percentage of the next big contract signing, they arent gonna loose sleep over a guy making the MLB minimum, and the Red Sox are a Cash cow that throws around a lot of money. Oh my god, you think they worry about offended agents? Totally agree! Dalbec has NO LEVERAGE. They should send him to AAA if they can not trade him. Hurt his feeling?...pettiness?…are you kidding…he does not need a safe space…I am sure he knows how the baseball business works.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 9, 2023 18:07:38 GMT -5
I'm open to the argument that Dalbec might have more value as a trade asset than as a righty bench bat/injury insurace for the corner infielders but if they traded him for a prospect in the 30-60 range I'd lose my mind.
Which is kind of funny, because it means you simultaneously think his self-regard is so high that the team can't risk hurting his and his agent's feelings by demoting him, but his actual value is so low that he could be traded for the fringiest of prospects. (Also fwiw, I've never gotten big ego vibes from Dalbec so I'd be especially surprised if he demanded this sort of coddling.)
I don’t think there’s as much of a correlation between how good a player is and how much the team/agency cares about the process as many here think. If an agent or agency thinks the Red Sox are acting in bad faith, whether It’s Xander Bogaerts or Bobby Dalbec the level of player is not going to matter as much as the (again, hypothetical) infraction. If anything, I’d argue the correlation would be the other way because deals for good players are a little easier to get done (both parties are generally more incentivized) whereas an agent has to work a lot harder to find avenues for players on the margins. Not saying I fully believe in that, but I think it’s just as reasonable as the alternative that has been floated a couple times here. Also, just so I’m clear, you’d “lose your mind” if you were a fan of a team that traded, say, Alex Binelas for Bobby Dalbec? Binelas having Dalbec’s MLB career would represent an upper-percentile outcome, I think you’re overvaluing the prospects in that range. No, I'd lose my mind as a Red Sox fan if they traded Dalbec for such a small return.
And maybe that is all they could get for him. In which case I'm happy to keep him in the role I've described - insurance for Turner/Casas/Devers and a righty bench bat if they need that at some point this season.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Feb 9, 2023 18:14:55 GMT -5
I'm open to the argument that Dalbec might have more value as a trade asset than as a righty bench bat/injury insurace for the corner infielders but if they traded him for a prospect in the 30-60 range I'd lose my mind.
Which is kind of funny, because it means you simultaneously think his self-regard is so high that the team can't risk hurting his and his agent's feelings by demoting him, but his actual value is so low that he could be traded for the fringiest of prospects. (Also fwiw, I've never gotten big ego vibes from Dalbec so I'd be especially surprised if he demanded this sort of coddling.)
I don’t think there’s as much of a correlation between how good a player is and how much the team/agency cares about the process as many here think. If an agent or agency thinks the Red Sox are acting in bad faith, whether It’s Xander Bogaerts or Bobby Dalbec the level of player is not going to matter as much as the (again, hypothetical) infraction. If anything, I’d argue the correlation would be the other way because deals for good players are a little easier to get done (both parties are generally more incentivized) whereas an agent has to work a lot harder to find avenues for players on the margins. Not saying I fully believe in that, but I think it’s just as reasonable as the alternative that has been floated a couple times here. Also, just so I’m clear, you’d “lose your mind” if you were a fan of a team that traded, say, Alex Binelas for Bobby Dalbec? Binelas having Dalbec’s MLB career would represent an upper-percentile outcome, I think you’re overvaluing the prospects in that range. Have you been drinking? This isn't communism
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 9, 2023 18:20:47 GMT -5
I don’t think there’s as much of a correlation between how good a player is and how much the team/agency cares about the process as many here think. If an agent or agency thinks the Red Sox are acting in bad faith, whether It’s Xander Bogaerts or Bobby Dalbec the level of player is not going to matter as much as the (again, hypothetical) infraction. If anything, I’d argue the correlation would be the other way because deals for good players are a little easier to get done (both parties are generally more incentivized) whereas an agent has to work a lot harder to find avenues for players on the margins. Not saying I fully believe in that, but I think it’s just as reasonable as the alternative that has been floated a couple times here. Also, just so I’m clear, you’d “lose your mind” if you were a fan of a team that traded, say, Alex Binelas for Bobby Dalbec? Binelas having Dalbec’s MLB career would represent an upper-percentile outcome, I think you’re overvaluing the prospects in that range. No, I'd lose my mind as a Red Sox fan if they traded Dalbec for such a small return.
And maybe that is all they could get for him. In which case I'm happy to keep him in the role I've described - insurance for Turner/Casas/Devers and a righty bench bat if they need that at some point this season.
Oh okay. My bad for misunderstanding. I mean I’d just say it goes back to what I said from the jump about all parties having different perceptions they operate under. Most athletes think they’re better than they are, it’s not really an ego problem it’s just a thing, in a lot of cases it’s necessary confidence for athletes to succeed. I don’t think Dalbec is some kind of egomaniac, but he’s a guy who has had stretches of legitimate Major League success so of course it stands to reason he thinks he’s still capable of that. Anyway, I know when I’m licked. People can disagree with the hypothetical all they want, I’m pretty confident in what I know about the process given who I’ve been fortunate enough to talk to but I also understand that I’m just a random internet stranger touting “credentials” online so there’s no point in me trying to hijack the thread defending my own merits or the (and I cannot stress this word enough) hypotheticals.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Feb 9, 2023 18:48:39 GMT -5
I don’t think there’s as much of a correlation between how good a player is and how much the team/agency cares about the process as many here think. If an agent or agency thinks the Red Sox are acting in bad faith, whether It’s Xander Bogaerts or Bobby Dalbec the level of player is not going to matter as much as the (again, hypothetical) infraction. If anything, I’d argue the correlation would be the other way because deals for good players are a little easier to get done (both parties are generally more incentivized) whereas an agent has to work a lot harder to find avenues for players on the margins. Not saying I fully believe in that, but I think it’s just as reasonable as the alternative that has been floated a couple times here. Also, just so I’m clear, you’d “lose your mind” if you were a fan of a team that traded, say, Alex Binelas for Bobby Dalbec? Binelas having Dalbec’s MLB career would represent an upper-percentile outcome, I think you’re overvaluing the prospects in that range. No, I'd lose my mind as a Red Sox fan if they traded Dalbec for such a small return.
And maybe that is all they could get for him. In which case I'm happy to keep him in the role I've described - insurance for Turner/Casas/Devers and a righty bench bat if they need that at some point this season.
His 5 HRs in 5 games was nice, but the reality is that he is not (and most likely never will) be a starter or above average bench player in the MLB. (Unfortunately for him and the Red Sox).
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Feb 9, 2023 18:55:26 GMT -5
Hey, that's why it's fun to debate all this minutiae when it's February.. Soon enough there will be games... Then we'll have game threads to be cordial in .
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Feb 9, 2023 18:59:35 GMT -5
Chris totally jinxed it on yesterday's pod when he said come to the forums if the craziness of twitter is too much for you
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 9, 2023 19:08:24 GMT -5
I don’t think there’s as much of a correlation between how good a player is and how much the team/agency cares about the process as many here think. If an agent or agency thinks the Red Sox are acting in bad faith, whether It’s Xander Bogaerts or Bobby Dalbec the level of player is not going to matter as much as the (again, hypothetical) infraction. If anything, I’d argue the correlation would be the other way because deals for good players are a little easier to get done (both parties are generally more incentivized) whereas an agent has to work a lot harder to find avenues for players on the margins. Not saying I fully believe in that, but I think it’s just as reasonable as the alternative that has been floated a couple times here. Also, just so I’m clear, you’d “lose your mind” if you were a fan of a team that traded, say, Alex Binelas for Bobby Dalbec? Binelas having Dalbec’s MLB career would represent an upper-percentile outcome, I think you’re overvaluing the prospects in that range. MLB teams act in 'bad faith' regarding sending down MLB-quality players all of the time, but they still do it and don't care if the agent doesn't like it. You are applying NBA/NFL logic to MLB - it's not the same. Dalbec struggled last season. This is in no-way a bad faith move to send him to AAA. Unless there is an injury, Dalbec will begin the season in AAA. Dalbec is important depth for this team at the moment. If Turner, Casas or Devers gets hurt, he's likely who they call up. Turner's 2-year contract is basically a 1-year deal, unless he struggles. The hope should be that Dalbec makes adjustments in AAA and takes his spot for 2024. They are similar enough players (at this point) to fill that some role.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,992
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Post by jimoh on Feb 10, 2023 6:59:30 GMT -5
Maybe he wouldn't be thrilled about it but I don't think he has a real gripe given he was a below replacement level player last year. I really doubt it's something agents would hold against the Red Sox in future negotiations. It's the deal with young guys, play well enough or you get optioned. If he hits well enough in AAA he'll be back in the Majors in no time. Not in the same ballpark of poor optics/agent handling as say holding out Bello for 80 games to grab an extra year (not that you suggested that). I think you are way off base with how players perceive themselves and how agents deal for their clients. Dalbec played in 133 games in 2021 and 117 in 2022, whether or not he is good enough to be moving forward, he is by definition a "starting MLB first baseman". He's not going to think of himself as a below replacement level player. And his agent isn't going to focus on that either, he will focus on the multi-month stretch in 2021 where he was one of the better hitters in baseball. That's literally what he's paid to do. I am firmly confident that the Dalbec camp would be pretty unhappy if he were to be optioned. I'm not saying they're wrong to feel this way, it's completely natural, but almost all athletes think they are better than they are. And their agents are paid to get them contracts that are in line with their beliefs, not with reality. I'd imagine they've seen the writing on the wall so I imagine they've already been doing some work towards making a trade happen, which is part of the reason I'm so surprised it hasn't yet. In 2021 Dalbec had a white-hot stretch of about 118 PA. It was parts of two months (Aug-Sept) but it was five weeks. In the post-season he was 0-12 with 5 Ks, after going 3-28 (.143 .172 .393 .565) at the end off the season, right after the good 118 PA. In 2020 he had 89 good PA but with 39Ks. Apart from two hots streaks of about 100 PA, he's hit like a platoon backup SS. He's not a major league corner infielder.
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Post by soxfanatic on Feb 15, 2023 7:14:33 GMT -5
Is today the day the Red Sox can put Story on the 60 Day IL?
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 15, 2023 11:24:51 GMT -5
Is today the day the Red Sox can put Story on the 60 Day IL?
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