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Patriots 2023 Offseason Thread
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 2, 2023 16:05:57 GMT -5
i think it’s a little much to say he killed people. You don’t get misdemeanors for killing He’s also a great player, there’s a reason he was in discussion for the 1st non Qb to come off the board It’s a lot much because he didn’t kill anyone. He was involved in something dumb that many of us have done to one degree or another. Young people are stupid and wreck-less. The car that crashed made their own decision and paid dearly for it. It’s tragic, it doesn’t mean anything other than a bunch of young people made very poor decisions as most of them do. Most of us just live to talk about it. We then laugh at how dumb we were not fully realizing what could have happened to us or someone else. |
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Post by jmei on Mar 2, 2023 18:04:56 GMT -5
I dunno man. Maybe it’s just me, but I never drag raced (going 100+ mph) a drunk friend.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Mar 2, 2023 18:50:09 GMT -5
It’s the NFL guys the details so far won’t drop him that far.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Mar 2, 2023 19:23:06 GMT -5
Jalen Carter is going to be mocked to the Patriots, and Bill seems to like this type of defensive tackle. I don’t. The things I like in defensive tackles are freaky size (long or stout, see Jeffry Simmons, Chris Jones, Wilfork, or Dexter Lawrence), freaky athleticism (Cortez Kennedy, Aaron Donald), freaky production (Barmore) or some combination of all those traits (Warren sapp). Jalen Carter fits none of those categories, and yet many years we see 6’3, 300 lb defensive tackles like him and Tommy Harris and Malcolm Brown and Dominique Easley go too high in the draft. And now he killed a couple dudes, so he’s going to “fall” in the 1st round. Pass. I'm not trying to pick on you here, but recently you suggested teams should defer to PFF's board if their own board was much different from the PFF/industry consensus. PFF's board claims Jalen Carter "is as good a DT prospect as we've seen since we started grading college in 2014. A complete prospect". They currently have him as the second best overall prospect in this class, but you don't want him at #14. Passing on Carter at #14 would be an extreme example of dismissing PFF's board in favor of your own evaluation. It's not like PFF is an outlier either, Carter is a top prospect basically everywhere. Look at the cost to move from #2 to #14, compared to the cost of moving from #86 (where PFF had Strange last year) to #29 (where Strange was selected). Passing on Carter, even if you went chalk and took their #14 prospect instead (currently Calijah Kancey), would be ignoring the value on their board even more significantly than Bill has done to this point. Long term you may be right, who knows Carter may prove to be overhyped, but this would be an example of the type of thing you seemingly wanted them to avoid. If PFF can be high on a player it only follows that they could be low on a player too, right? |
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Mar 3, 2023 16:57:04 GMT -5
To continue the draft "consensus" thought:
Every year on the ESPN scroll they show "Mel's best available" and as the draft gets into rounds 3-4 and beyond sometimes his "best" sit there for hours. Pick after pick disagrees with Mel. His 3rd round guy drafted in the 6th, or 4th rounder in the 7th. Many of his "best" go undrafted.
Yet after the draft Mel will write a column criticizing those who drafted early players he had rated late -- huh? Other draft "gurus" will do similar.
I'd be much more interested in reading about why they think their 63rd rated player was drafted @ 112.
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Post by philarhody on Mar 4, 2023 0:26:50 GMT -5
Jalen Carter is going to be mocked to the Patriots, and Bill seems to like this type of defensive tackle. I don’t. The things I like in defensive tackles are freaky size (long or stout, see Jeffry Simmons, Chris Jones, Wilfork, or Dexter Lawrence), freaky athleticism (Cortez Kennedy, Aaron Donald), freaky production (Barmore) or some combination of all those traits (Warren sapp). Jalen Carter fits none of those categories, and yet many years we see 6’3, 300 lb defensive tackles like him and Tommy Harris and Malcolm Brown and Dominique Easley go too high in the draft. And now he killed a couple dudes, so he’s going to “fall” in the 1st round. Pass. I'm not trying to pick on you here, but recently you suggested teams should defer to PFF's board if their own board was much different from the PFF/industry consensus. PFF's board claims Jalen Carter "is as good a DT prospect as we've seen since we started grading college in 2014. A complete prospect". They currently have him as the second best overall prospect in this class, but you don't want him at #14. Passing on Carter at #14 would be an extreme example of dismissing PFF's board in favor of your own evaluation. It's not like PFF is an outlier either, Carter is a top prospect basically everywhere. Look at the cost to move from #2 to #14, compared to the cost of moving from #86 (where PFF had Strange last year) to #29 (where Strange was selected). Passing on Carter, even if you went chalk and took their #14 prospect instead (currently Calijah Kancey), would be ignoring the value on their board even more significantly than Bill has done to this point. Long term you may be right, who knows Carter may prove to be overhyped, but this would be an example of the type of thing you seemingly wanted them to avoid. If PFF can be high on a player it only follows that they could be low on a player too, right? These are some really good points. I went back and looked at DT’s drafted at Carter’s Height/Weight, and it’s a much stronger list than I imagined. I guess I overlooked just how many impactful defensive tackles there are right now in the league (Williams and Payne are most similar to Carter now, McCoy and Dareus before them). The PFF/BenSolak contingency of smart football media typically pound the table for players who can really play and seem to stack a board that is just better than what the league drafts. There’s anlways exceptions. BUT they also don’t have to deal with the owner who wants the fancy new toy, etc. |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 4, 2023 9:51:15 GMT -5
Hoyer getting released, per reports.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 4, 2023 16:34:21 GMT -5
I dunno man. Maybe it’s just me, but I never drag raced (going 100+ mph) a drunk friend. I never did either but I did say to one degree or another. In HS we used to “race” to soccer camps over the summer. Never at those speeds or drunk but it was still reckless. Point is there are dumb decisions kids make that don’t necessarily reflect on who they’ll become as people and don’t mean they are even bad people at the time. It’s definitely immature that’s for damn sure and it’s a recent immaturity so it’s a problem. I’m not going to classify the dude as a killer tho |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 5, 2023 12:18:16 GMT -5
I hate this recent trend of very few players doing 3 cone drill at the Combine. Even guys like Downs and Flowers who you know have great change of direction skills, skip it. Guy like Dell who didn't put up great numbers, skipped it. Now we have to wait for pro days if they do it at all.
JSN showed you his short area quickness with a crazy impressive 3 cone time and shuttle time, both tops for WR. Yet not great vertical or broad jump, which isn't surprising, he's not a huge contested catch guy. For him his 40 yard time is the final piece. Yet I didn't like hearing he just got cleared two weeks ago when his hamstring injury was minor and expected to take only a few weeks. Still have those toughness, durability and playing when not 100% questions. Yet that 3 cone time is what really makes a good slot WR in our system!
Do you take a slot WR who isn't a vertical threat in the top half of the first round?
Tyler Scott says he received texts from our new WR coach. So that might be a player to watch. Yet no 3 cone time, yet the rest of his numbers were darn good. Former RB.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,859 
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Post by cdj on Mar 5, 2023 14:51:52 GMT -5
I saw Darnell Washington manhandle a sled and make a sick one handed catch and now I need him like I need oxygen
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Mar 5, 2023 16:51:21 GMT -5
Wonder why the Patriots haven’t sold off on any of their talent. Letting guys go for little to nothing doesn’t make sense to me.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Mar 5, 2023 18:27:46 GMT -5
The WR class is not up to par unless they trade back IMO. Might be better to get a veteran and use a couple of later round picks to get some guys in.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Mar 6, 2023 9:35:35 GMT -5
The WR class is not up to par unless they trade back IMO. Might be better to get a veteran and use a couple of later round picks to get some guys in. I'd be okay with JSN at 14 to 20 (good size, tested great after a lost year, high ceiling and impressive accomplishments) if the OT board doesn't go their way and a top CB doesn't fit BB's style. Otherwise the WR class is garbage. There are maybe-kinda options in 2-4th round. Like, Marvin Mims underachieved a little but shows some go-get-it and speed, and tested well. Rice is old, Flowers is small, Hyatt is one-note, etc. Someone like Charlie Jones from Perdue could be fun, but I'd guess he has a Meyers type ceiling. Boutte is a former 5 star recruit, was a supernova in the 2020 SEC Championship and first 6 games of 2021 before injury, but tested poorly, has character questions, and disappointed in 2022; can he be a George Pickens buy low (maybe lower than 4th round after the poor combine)? I think there's some value in OT at 14 and TE at 46; this is the best TE class in ages and they have all kinds. Could solve our pass catcher problem that way, at least thru the draft. I'd hate to trade our 2nd round pick for filling the WR hole. I don't see most trade options as worth that for a growing team. |
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Post by costpet on Mar 6, 2023 9:35:53 GMT -5
Kicker...Punter...Big needs
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Mar 6, 2023 10:41:46 GMT -5
The WR class is not up to par unless they trade back IMO. Might be better to get a veteran and use a couple of later round picks to get some guys in. I'd be okay with JSN at 14 to 20 (good size, tested great after a lost year, high ceiling and impressive accomplishments) if the OT board doesn't go their way and a top CB doesn't fit BB's style. Otherwise the WR class is garbage. There are maybe-kinda options in 2-4th round. Like, Marvin Mims underachieved a little but shows some go-get-it and speed, and tested well. Rice is old, Flowers is small, Hyatt is one-note, etc. Someone like Charlie Jones from Perdue could be fun, but I'd guess he has a Meyers type ceiling. Boutte is a former 5 star recruit, was a supernova in the 2020 SEC Championship and first 6 games of 2021 before injury, but tested poorly, has character questions, and disappointed in 2022; can he be a George Pickens buy low (maybe lower than 4th round after the poor combine)? I think there's some value in OT at 14 and TE at 46; this is the best TE class in ages and they have all kinds. Could solve our pass catcher problem that way, at least thru the draft. I'd hate to trade our 2nd round pick for filling the WR hole. I don't see most trade options as worth that for a growing team. Right on Cue, Andrew Callahan has probably my dream realistic draft www.bostonherald.com/2023/03/06/nfl-draft-patriots-bolster-offense-with-top-3-picks-in-7-round-mock-draft/ 1st round
No. 14: Georgia OT Broderick Jones
Ht/Wt: 6-5, 311
If Jones, or Northwestern offensive tackle Peter Skoronski, a projected top-10 pick, is available, the Pats should sprint to the podium. They have one starting-caliber offensive tackle on the roster and none under contract after next season. Jones has the potential to replace Trent Brown in 2023 and start on the Patriots’ blind side for the next decade. The redshirt sophomore possesses rare athleticism and power and plays with a mean streak. According to Pro Football Focus, he didn’t allow a sack last season. The tools, mental approach and experience against elite collegiate rushers are all there. With some refinement, he’ll be a Pro Bowler in no time. 2nd round
No. 46: Oregon State TE Luke Musgrave
Ht/Wt: 6-6, 253
The last time the Patriots rolled the dice on an injury-prone, athletic freak of a tight end he blossomed into a future Hall of Famer. Is Luke Musgrave the next Gronk? Of course not. But, as far as the potential he packs as a two-way tight end at the next level, Musgrave is unmatched. He turned heads at the Senior Bowl. He’s a threat down the seam, after the catch and as a run-blocker. The Patriots could use him as their No. 2 tight end this season and No. 1 option moving forward. 3rd round
No. 76: Oklahoma WR Marvin Mims
Ht/Wt: 5-11, 183
One of the fastest players in this year’s draft, Mims clocked an elite 6.9-second time in the 3-cone drill, once a prerequisite for Pats receiver prospects. Mims’ speed, quickness and ball skills make him a threat at all three levels, and his run-after-catch ability would give the Patriots’ offense fresh dynamism. Last season, Mims caught 54 passes for 1,083 yards and six touchdowns. 4th round No. 107: South Carolina CB Darius Rush Ht/Wt: 6-2, 198 He has a Kicker and Punter too along the way. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 6, 2023 13:48:57 GMT -5
The problem I see with this draft class is its weak at the top. Every year WR rise lately and it's a horrible free agent class. A lot of guys are also smaller and lack weight. I've seen 2019 WR class multiple times, yet do teams really wait to pick 20 to take the first WR? That's the problem, I don't think so. So the value likely won't match where these guys start flying off the board.
I'm going to watch tape in the next few weeks. Yet right now only JSN is even a consideration for me at 14. That's if he posts a good 40, low 4.5 or better. Aces his interviews, answer for the hamstring issue and is incredible smart. Yet there's a good chance he's gone. Addison fits, yet being projected way to high. I love Downs, yet he's not really value at 14 and is likely gone at 46, same with Flowers. Then you have a bunch of guys like Thornton who are just smaller, yet for me the Patriots biggest need is short to medium range route runners that can get open repeatedly. Like the Chiefs or any other very vertical passing attack probably love this class. It's filled with smaller WR that's best strengths are going deep. Yet it does have some interesting WR later in draft, Mingo and Hutchinson could be similar to Meyers. Might be a good draft to go after the value later on and fill out our depth, rather than going after a star.
The other thing bugging me, is what type of offense does O'Brian run? I assume more like he used to run, yet he's been away for years and involved in multiple different offenses that are much different. Maybe he likes the idea of a vertical slot WR, which would change things as there are a bunch of guys like that.
I also can't get over Tre Nixon being praised as one of the hardest workers he's every had. 6'2" 180 4.44 speed, 6.81 3 cone and 35.5 vertical. Was used as a vertical WR in College in a simple offense, yet has spent the last two years learning the slot position and during camp reports of him always being able to get open were flying around. Yet with Meyers as your slot guy, no where to play him. It's likely nothing, yet at the same time this team is kinda due for a late round pick to breakout
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 7, 2023 6:50:36 GMT -5
Unlike last year the LB group isn't great unless Bill is really going to change who he likes. I'm a fan of Yasir Abdullah of Louisville, Bill would love his versatility. Kinda reminds me of Kyle Van Noy, yet he already has much more LB experience. Jack Campbell could be a long-term Bentley upgrade. Overall it's a bunch of heavier box LB or very light coverage types. I'd list the faster coverage types I like, yet Bill has never once targeted players like that.
Draft is very deep at DE, DT and CB. Not a huge fan of the depth at FS though, so I certainly hope McCourty comes back.
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Mar 7, 2023 9:04:57 GMT -5
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Post by texs31 on Mar 7, 2023 9:32:41 GMT -5
Catching up on one man's (Greg Bedard) view on offseason needs and how to fill them (in his order).
Need #1 - Free Safety - Devin McCourty or give Jalen Mills a shot
Need #2 - Offensive Tackle - Extend Trent Brown (with contract set up to ensure engagement) and draft someone. He assumes Skoronski and Johnson will be gone. If Broderick Jones is a guy, take him. Otherwise, trade down and target Wright, Dawand Jones or Harrison
Need #3 - Tight End - 1st, he believes that they probably tried to extend Henry (maybe even instead of Smith - though that's my interpretation on top of his) but Hunter wants to bet on himself. His projection comes off a bit vague but I interpreted it as cut Henry (says he's "good as gone but then suggests it could be in 24) and draft a guy. Doesn't like the fit at 14 but could see a trade down with Darnell Washington being the ideal guy.
Need #4 - True #1 CB - Doesn't think they'll target 1 at 14 due to the idea of 1 rookie CB and 2 2nd years being your primary depth. Likes a big move (trade for Ramsey or sign Jamel Dean). If not, Patrick Peterson or Marcus Peters.
The rest are to come but, in order:
Need #5 - Future Mike
Need #6 - Edge
Need #7 - Slot/Playmaker
Need #8 - Another OT
Need #9 - Run Stuffing NT
Need #10 - Boundary WR
Need #11 - Developmental QB
Need #12 - Will LB
Need #13 - Developmental RB
Just a note on his need order. From the text of the pieces (including the original depth chart/needs list) his order is HEAVILY considering whether an internal candidate even exists. For example, while FS is his #1 need bc you don't have a guy (at least who has played it in your system) under contract. But CB seems higher in terms of the investment he'd make to improvement. Even his blurb on the yet to be published piece on Boundary WR, suggests that an upgrade with a decent investment makes sense (but, technically, they do have Parker/Thornton so it's lower on the list).
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Post by texs31 on Mar 7, 2023 10:22:28 GMT -5
Now I'm reading a "report" that Doug Kyed forwarded from Jordan Schultz (the Score) telling him that Henry won't be released. So, do with that what you will.
I think the least likely scenario is that both Henry/Smith are on this team. If they are, not sure they'd draft someone early (Top 100 picks) unless he's just a perfect fit (and there aren't other perfect fits at different positions).
If 1 is gone, could see a 1st or 2nd rd investment.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 8, 2023 8:14:32 GMT -5
I get there are a bunch of different ways to build teams and they can all be correct. So there's no exact science and that's part of the fun when NFL team building. Yet I also feel Bedard has these crazy takes every year. Even if you want to do a Henry extension it likely won't happen till after this year's free agent market sets values. Nevermind gives him more leverage if they want to make a big move. Releasing him never made any sense. I just don’t see how WR is #7 and #10, you currently have one WR singed past this year! You might prefer a #1 CB, yet no way that's a bigger need than future WR depth at minimum. Some things you can debate, having WR that low is just wrong and a bad take!
The QB market is crazy, I'm literally in shock after seeing what Carr, Jones and Smith just got. I could understand a team like the Jets maybe overpaying Carr given that's a team that's a QB and OL away from being special. I'm thinking about moving QB up a notch on my rankings. You can't pay non elite QBs that much money and if that's any indication of the free agent market as a whole, OMG
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,859
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Post by cdj on Mar 8, 2023 10:32:18 GMT -5
*whispers* go sign Lamar Jackson?
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Post by texs31 on Mar 8, 2023 12:43:30 GMT -5
I get there are a bunch of different ways to build teams and they can all be correct. So there's no exact science and that's part of the fun when NFL team building. Yet I also feel Bedard has these crazy takes every year. Even if you want to do a Henry extension it likely won't happen till after this year's free agent market sets values. Nevermind gives him more leverage if they want to make a big move. Releasing him never made any sense. I just don’t see how WR is #7 and #10, you currently have one WR singed past this year! You might prefer a #1 CB, yet no way that's a bigger need than future WR depth at minimum. Some things you can debate, having WR that low is just wrong and a bad take! The QB market is crazy, I'm literally in shock after seeing what Carr, Jones and Smith just got. I could understand a team like the Jets maybe overpaying Carr given that's a team that's a QB and OL away from being special. I'm thinking about moving QB up a notch on my rankings. You can't pay non elite QBs that much money and if that's any indication of the free agent market as a whole, OMG It's only wrong because you are using your definition of need. If the season started today, they have NOBODY for that position. They need upgrades at WR but not they do have guys who've started and or a recent 2nd rd pick. Now when you look at what he's committing to the FS position in his ideal projection (no outside FA and no top draft pick) compared to the blurb (full piece hasn't been posted yet) about WR (need a trade for a Tee Higgins type), it's clear what he thinks is most important. I feel it's less a wrong or crazy take and more a "not useful" way to present the needs of the team. But not wrong or, even, that crazy. On Henry, I was the one who interpreted his piece as saying they'd release him (one spot he says "he's good as gone" but another spot suggests that he'll bank on himself for FA 2024. I put more weight on the former. Not sure what he was referring to but, either way, it's likely that Henry is on the team. |
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Post by costpet on Mar 8, 2023 13:09:00 GMT -5
I’m hearing rumors that Rogers may sign with the Jets. That could be tough on the Pats. Makes the division even more difficult.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,859
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Post by cdj on Mar 8, 2023 13:22:47 GMT -5
*Fraudgers
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