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Post by cheers on May 13, 2023 17:56:42 GMT -5
Well, Cora did manage to get us a (probably needed) deep and well rested bullpen for tomorrow. I'm sure this was his plan all along? Pure managing genius. Pure.
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Post by soxfansince67 on May 13, 2023 17:57:43 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the only part of the game I caught was the 9th inning, on the radio. Yuck.
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Post by patford on May 13, 2023 18:01:34 GMT -5
They're getting swept this weekend. They kind of deserve it. Sale and Paxton certainly dont, though. I'm jus pissed right now. I felt it coming. Martin should have gotten the 9th. I cant help but wonder if Jansen is gassed a bit. i really don't get this. how can a person reasonably come the conclusion that a change should be made because of 1 really bad outing. Here, he had a 2 run lead, it was right to call to go to Kenley. I agree with this completely. It's early in the season Jansen is supposed to be the closer. You don't abandon him when he's been great and has one bad outing. Now it's two in a row and that's a major concern. Not because they lost two games but because Jansen may be a huge problem. Assuming he's close to 100% physically then this is extremely worrisome. Way to soon to give up on him but if he does not turn things around quickly then he's not going to be what the Sox were counting on.
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Post by foreverred9 on May 13, 2023 18:08:24 GMT -5
Looking at the statcast data, I was expecting to see yesterday's data look like an outlier bad (today's game isn't out yet). But in reality he looked normal - speed and spin were fine - but the issue was he couldn't locate the fastball. I expect to see the same today.
The real outlier was the game Wednesday, 2 MPH faster on average and significantly more spin than any other game this year. Feels like he's gave himself a bout of dead-arm from that performance Wednesday.
I sure hope Cora and team knew the data coming into this one. Feels like it should have been a quick pull when he showed wildness again.
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Post by foreverred9 on May 13, 2023 18:10:47 GMT -5
i really don't get this. how can a person reasonably come the conclusion that a change should be made because of 1 really bad outing. Here, he had a 2 run lead, it was right to call to go to Kenley. I agree with this completely. It's early in the season Jansen is supposed to be the closer. You don't abandon him when he's been great and has one bad outing. Now it's two in a row and that's a major concern. Not because they lost two games but because Jansen may be a huge problem. Assuming he's close to 100% physically then this is extremely worrisome. Way to soon to give up on him but if he does not turn things around quickly then he's not going to be what the Sox were counting on. You don't abandon him, this isn't a binary decision. But you could tell him that his metrics looked odd this week and that we want to give him some rest. Grant it, you probably also have to tell the media too because this fanbase would spin it to the negative like they always do.
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Post by patford on May 13, 2023 18:22:02 GMT -5
I agree with this completely. It's early in the season Jansen is supposed to be the closer. You don't abandon him when he's been great and has one bad outing. Now it's two in a row and that's a major concern. Not because they lost two games but because Jansen may be a huge problem. Assuming he's close to 100% physically then this is extremely worrisome. Way to soon to give up on him but if he does not turn things around quickly then he's not going to be what the Sox were counting on. You don't abandon him, this isn't a binary decision. But you could tell him that his metrics looked odd this week and that we want to give him some rest. Grant it, you probably also have to tell the media too because this fanbase would spin it to the negative like they always do. Coupled with the fact he's said the fanbase in L.A. had him completely beaten down. L.A. sports fandom isn't exactly famous for being ravenous. Hopefully it's overuse for which it's hard to blame Cora with the SP consistently not going deep into games.
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Post by orion09 on May 13, 2023 18:22:45 GMT -5
Looking at the statcast data, I was expecting to see yesterday's data look like an outlier bad (today's game isn't out yet). But in reality he looked normal - speed and spin were fine - but the issue was he couldn't locate the fastball. I expect to see the same today. The real outlier was the game Wednesday, 2 MPH faster on average and significantly more spin than any other game this year. Feels like he's gave himself a bout of dead-arm from that performance Wednesday. I sure hope Cora and team knew the data coming into this one. Feels like it should have been a quick pull when he showed wildness again. Yeah, it sure feels like he amped himself up for the Atlanta game. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that after working himself up to outlier-level velo and spin in a milestone game, his stuff has looked flat and his control has been bad in the two games immediately following.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 13, 2023 18:24:27 GMT -5
Duran is 4th in WRC+ for players with 80 or more plate appearances.
He's currently on a 9 fWAR/150 pace. (but only 8.5 bWAR)
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 13, 2023 19:04:49 GMT -5
Took awhile, but seems fears of Jansen are starting to come to fruition.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 13, 2023 19:14:07 GMT -5
I agree with this completely. It's early in the season Jansen is supposed to be the closer. You don't abandon him when he's been great and has one bad outing. Now it's two in a row and that's a major concern. Not because they lost two games but because Jansen may be a huge problem. Assuming he's close to 100% physically then this is extremely worrisome. Way to soon to give up on him but if he does not turn things around quickly then he's not going to be what the Sox were counting on. You don't abandon him, this isn't a binary decision. But you could tell him that his metrics looked odd this week and that we want to give him some rest. Grant it, you probably also have to tell the media too because this fanbase would spin it to the negative like they always do. Nobody said to abandon him. He didnt look right. He is usually a pitcher with good command, which he obviously didnt have from the get go. It's possible he had some serious adrenaline going when he got save 400 and perhaps he exhausted his arm a bit as his control was way off last night too. Couple that with throwing 22 pitches, I probably would have let him take a day or two, and went with Martin, but that doesnt mean I'd abandon him. He is and should be their closer. Dont think anybody disputes that. One game against the Angels they sat Jansen and closed out a 2-1 lead with Brasier somehow. I think letting Kenley have a couple of days to regenerate might have been an idea. Well if they have a lead tomorrow in the 9th Jansen certainly wont pitch.
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Post by grandsalami on May 13, 2023 19:31:58 GMT -5
Here is Jansen on today
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Post by juanpena on May 13, 2023 19:53:53 GMT -5
we are all mad, but a lot more went wrong that inning than Hernandez. Let's practice proper blame assessment. When you’re a negative WAR player and in the 1st percentile of OAA, you’re going to get more grief when you spike a ball leading to the game losing run scoring. Especially when you spent the winter running your mouth off about how last year's team was comfortable with finishing last and how you're the leader of the team now.
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Post by Canseco on May 13, 2023 20:54:37 GMT -5
At least we have our Campbell’s soup red softball jerseys! Revolting.
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Post by incandenza on May 13, 2023 20:56:19 GMT -5
Geez, can't believe nobody has their eyes on the prize here - Casas extended the on-base streak!!
Pinch-hitting. One shot at it. Single. Boom. What a baller.
22 games!!
(I did not see this game and am very glad for it.)
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 13, 2023 20:57:24 GMT -5
Yeah the more I think about it this one’s on Cora
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Post by manfred on May 13, 2023 21:16:23 GMT -5
Can I take the position that it isn’t “on” anyone? Baseball happens. I would not have used Jansen after a tough inning yesterday, but I also expect I’d not be alone wondering why he *didn’t* pitch if Martin came in and blew it.
Chalk it up. There are weird wins, and there are weird losses.
Sale looked good.
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Post by yuchangclan on May 13, 2023 21:40:55 GMT -5
what is this story about Jansen's fragile emotional state ? Sure to be in the minority here, but am i reading that people want Martin closing because of his performance last night ? Sorry, not down with that. If we are gonna get to where we want, we need Jensen to be where he was, and you gotta let him get back on the horse. If it is injury, then he needs to come clean. Nobody wants Kenley demoted, but you don’t need to roll him out again less than 24 hours after his worst (and longest) outing of the year. Edit: Anyone else remember when Cora tried multiple times to sabotage the 2018 postseason run by continuing to trod out the corpse of Craig Kimbrel? I was getting war flashbacks today. I understand throwing Jansen in there to “get right back on the horse” after last night’s debacle. But shame on AC for not having a quicker hook ready. It was immediately obvious Kenley didn’t have it tonight. It was the same exact scenario as yesterday. Cora can have a free pass on the first one. But he can’t let that same thing happen again the next day.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 13, 2023 22:12:23 GMT -5
Can I take the position that it isn’t “on” anyone? Baseball happens. I would not have used Jansen after a tough inning yesterday, but I also expect I’d not be alone wondering why he *didn’t* pitch if Martin came in and blew it. Chalk it up. There are weird wins, and there are weird losses. Sale looked good. Idk if the guy who throws 96 with control is throwing 92 with no control maybe the manager should have a quicker hook.
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Post by orion09 on May 13, 2023 22:37:08 GMT -5
Can I take the position that it isn’t “on” anyone? Baseball happens. I would not have used Jansen after a tough inning yesterday, but I also expect I’d not be alone wondering why he *didn’t* pitch if Martin came in and blew it. Chalk it up. There are weird wins, and there are weird losses. Sale looked good. Idk if the guy who throws 96 with control is throwing 92 with no control maybe the manager should have a quicker hook. Anecdotally I can’t think of very many instances where a pitcher comes out of the bullpen, the stuff/control is clearly very off and he rights the ship and gets through the inning. It seems more common the other way, where for whatever reason a guy is “off” and the inning snowballs. We’ve seen this with Joe Kelly among others… if he was going to have a blow-up outing, you knew it within one batter. Jansen has been good, so I get letting him pitch, but just as a general point, I’d like to see Cora have a quicker hook in those situations. Lead-off walk on four pitches that aren’t even close, followed by a few more pitches that also aren’t close…. At a minimum, you have to get a guy up as soon as you see that he’s missing badly to the second hitter
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Post by patford on May 13, 2023 22:56:16 GMT -5
Can I take the position that it isn’t “on” anyone? Baseball happens. I would not have used Jansen after a tough inning yesterday, but I also expect I’d not be alone wondering why he *didn’t* pitch if Martin came in and blew it. Chalk it up. There are weird wins, and there are weird losses. Sale looked good. I'm not going to do any research but I'd be shocked if people blaming Cora haven't been blaming Cora for five years. This isn't game five of the World Series. It's early in the year and you don't go away from your closer after one bad outing. Or even after two in a row. As fans we freak out but a manager can't behave like that.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 13, 2023 23:09:13 GMT -5
Can I take the position that it isn’t “on” anyone? Baseball happens. I would not have used Jansen after a tough inning yesterday, but I also expect I’d not be alone wondering why he *didn’t* pitch if Martin came in and blew it. Chalk it up. There are weird wins, and there are weird losses. Sale looked good. I'm not going to do any research but I'd be shocked if people blaming Cora haven't been blaming Cora for five years. This isn't game five of the World Series. It's early in the year and you don't go away from your closer after one bad outing. Or even after two in a row. As fans we freak out but a manager can't behave like that. He had thrown a bunch of pitches the day before and was throwing 92. It’s not “freaking out” to make a move 3 batters in on that. Jansen will save plenty more games going forward, no need to have him operate when he’s clearly off
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Post by manfred on May 13, 2023 23:14:17 GMT -5
I'm not going to do any research but I'd be shocked if people blaming Cora haven't been blaming Cora for five years. This isn't game five of the World Series. It's early in the year and you don't go away from your closer after one bad outing. Or even after two in a row. As fans we freak out but a manager can't behave like that. He had thrown a bunch of pitches the day before and was throwing 92. It’s not “freaking out” to make a move 3 batters in on that. Jansen will save plenty more games going forward, no need to have him operate when he’s clearly off I wasn’t watching but was anyone warming? I mean… I don’t normally warm a guy behind my closer, and three quick guys might make me get a guy warming, but it is likely too late. You pay Jansen to close, and you ride or die with him. I would be shocked if you warmed a guy when he comes in or even a baserunner after. So how do you pull him? Fake injury?
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on May 13, 2023 23:16:24 GMT -5
I don't know, clearly Kenley didn't have it. He was all screwed up with the pitch clock thing. A couple times he started his delivery only to stop and then have to rush and follow through with a pitch. This continually caused him to miss low or get hit.
I chalk it up to sometimes closers, even good ones, blow games.
The Kiké' thing still bothers me the most. Maybe it shouldn't, but Kenley was clearly struggling, the whole infield just met him at the mound to obviously give him support and say "We got you're back" Kenley gets the perfect Double play ball and Kiké' proceeds to spike the ball into the ground on the throw. It was such an easy play, the runner wasn't close to breaking up to he play at second, the batter was halfway to first and Kiké' plays it like a little leaguer.
I've defended Kiké' and have kept saying "he's not THAT bad" but when this team desperately needed a smooth play.... That situation ... Uggh no words.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on May 13, 2023 23:17:50 GMT -5
He had thrown a bunch of pitches the day before and was throwing 92. It’s not “freaking out” to make a move 3 batters in on that. Jansen will save plenty more games going forward, no need to have him operate when he’s clearly off I wasn’t watching but was anyone warming? I mean… I don’t normally warm a guy behind my closer, and three quick guys might make me get a guy warming, but it is likely too late. You pay Jansen to close, and you ride or die with him. I would be shocked if you warmed a guy when he comes in or even a baserunner after. So how do you pull him? Fake injury? Martin was warming after the 1st batter was walked
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 13, 2023 23:19:48 GMT -5
He had thrown a bunch of pitches the day before and was throwing 92. It’s not “freaking out” to make a move 3 batters in on that. Jansen will save plenty more games going forward, no need to have him operate when he’s clearly off I wasn’t watching but was anyone warming? I mean… I don’t normally warm a guy behind my closer, and three quick guys might make me get a guy warming, but it is likely too late. You pay Jansen to close, and you ride or die with him. I would be shocked if you warmed a guy when he comes in or even a baserunner after. So how do you pull him? Fake injury? Martin was up quickly. Schreiber also had gotten loose not too long before
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