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Celtics 2023 Offseason Thread
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Post by philarhody on Jun 23, 2023 12:37:29 GMT -5
I like this pick too, especially with the 4 additional compelling future 2nd Round picks acquired as well. Walsh looks like he can develop into a meaningful defender and contributor, but let's not overhype him as "instantly Boston's best defender." White was 2nd team all defense last year. Robert Williams is a game changing defender when healthy, and Brown, Tatum and Horford all have elite defensive ability as well. It is not hard to imagine Walsh contributing to a strong Celtics defense but let's not crown him the best defender on the team quite yet. Yeah that’s an insane take. I watched a good amount of Arkansas games this year and Walsh is very, very far from belonging on an NBA court. He’s a worse rebounder than she should be, is far from perfect defensively despite his ++ wingy as most college freshman are (4th in defensive RAPM on his team), and he has basically no offensive game right now. I will say is that his shot isn’t as ugly as you’d think, and obviously he has all of the tools to be a plus defender. He needs to keep developing his jumper and maybe he can be a 3 and D player in a few years, but he will be a slow burn and the odds of him ever sticking in the league are low. Not slamming the pick. It’s just your typical 2nd rounder Yeah, not sure what you’re seeing. I see really special feet with rare wingspan. He’s going to be a terror defensively. Lu Dort/Herb Jones type defensive impact. Best defender in a draft filled with plus wing defenders. |
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badfishnbc
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Doing you all a favor and leaving through the gate in right field since 2012.
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Post by badfishnbc on Jun 23, 2023 13:44:32 GMT -5
FWIW...
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Jun 23, 2023 14:02:39 GMT -5
247sports.com/player/jordan-walsh-46059475/I always like to go back and see how players were regarded during recruiting. Walsh was a 5-star, #20 in the country. He's filled out since recruiting, where he was listed as 6'7" and 175. Long and Defense-oriented (no change there). A lot of players that pop from late 1st early 2nd are highly touted recruits who floundered as a one-and-done. Part of the reason I was high on Langford pick (sadly).
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badfishnbc
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Doing you all a favor and leaving through the gate in right field since 2012.
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Post by badfishnbc on Jun 23, 2023 14:27:59 GMT -5
Walsh was in an interesting spot for a highly touted recruit in that he was asked for probably the first time ever to be a role player. It's an environment that will make it a smoother transition to the NBA game - he'll never be a top 3 offensive option, unless a meteor hits Bus 2. Give him a stated goal to work on his shot and provide energy minutes off the bench and maybe we see a Grant-like growth in his deep range, starting year 2.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 23, 2023 16:00:32 GMT -5
I think play to your role and skill level is very important. He did what Arkansas wanted and was happy doing it. A big part of Smarts issues was never being able to let go of being the man and a scorer. From quarter to halfs to games you never knew what Smart you'd get. So yeah Walsh being happy and embracing his role is big, something overlooked about prospects.
When I watch his tape I see all the skill, ability and size to become a great defender. I don't see a great NBA defender right this second. He doesn't have perfect technique, he can way over aggressive and physical, while being a bad rebounder for his position. Nevermind the adjustment to a switch everything D. That's not a knock on him either, it was same with Robert Williams who might be the best defender in the league. You saw the ability day one, the true impact took a few years.
I'm looking at what type of contract he gets, 2 way or a regular contract. That will tell you what there plans are for him. I'd guess two way contract, let him develop in G league.
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Post by philarhody on Jun 23, 2023 18:12:51 GMT -5
I don't see a great NBA defender right this second. He doesn't have perfect technique, he can way over aggressive and physical, while being a bad rebounder for his position. Nevermind the adjustment to a switch everything D. Huh. Maybe you missed him on the tape you were watching. Here he is. You’ll notice in this tape the college players are implementing the switching concept you’ve mentioned. Who would have thought that the middle school complexities of “switch everything” would have made their way up to the NCAA level! Maybe you were watching the other light skinned kid with alopecia and a 7’3 wingspan giving up absolutely nothing to Kansas? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 23, 2023 22:12:07 GMT -5
I don't see a great NBA defender right this second. He doesn't have perfect technique, he can way over aggressive and physical, while being a bad rebounder for his position. Nevermind the adjustment to a switch everything D. Huh. Maybe you missed him on the tape you were watching. Here he is. You’ll notice in this tape the college players are implementing the switching concept you’ve mentioned. Who would have thought that the middle school complexities of “switch everything” would have made their way up to the NCAA level! Maybe you were watching the other light skinned kid with alopecia and a 7’3 wingspan giving up absolutely nothing to Kansas? Do you think a switch everything D, is just a D that has guys switch a few times? |
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Post by philarhody on Jun 24, 2023 0:57:11 GMT -5
Huh. Maybe you missed him on the tape you were watching. Here he is. You’ll notice in this tape the college players are implementing the switching concept you’ve mentioned. Who would have thought that the middle school complexities of “switch everything” would have made their way up to the NCAA level! Maybe you were watching the other light skinned kid with alopecia and a 7’3 wingspan giving up absolutely nothing to Kansas? Do you think a switch everything D, is just a D that has guys switch a few times? I’m not sure. You’d have to consult the NBA coach who employs the “switch everything” scheme. Or you could actually watch Jordan Walsh’s tape and see he’s the most vocal and aware defender on the court. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 24, 2023 9:36:19 GMT -5
The new CBA and college NIL money might change the NBA draft pretty drastically. Top 5 picks won’t be affected, but you have to wonder if a lot of younger players start getting drafted in the second round as teams don’t want to give guaranteed money to players who need time to develop. That means more upper class men being take. In the double digits. Do more players just decide to stay in college, making NIL money and developing to be a first round pick? We will need a couple drafts to see a trend to see if players start staying but it would be awesome for college basketball if guys start staying 3 years or more.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 24, 2023 9:43:43 GMT -5
Do you think a switch everything D, is just a D that has guys switch a few times? I’m not sure. You’d have to consult the NBA coach who employs the “switch everything” scheme. Or you could actually watch Jordan Walsh’s tape and see he’s the most vocal and aware defender on the court. 🤣 |
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Jun 24, 2023 11:52:14 GMT -5
Do you think a switch everything D, is just a D that has guys switch a few times? I’m not sure. You’d have to consult the NBA coach who employs the “switch everything” scheme. Or you could actually watch Jordan Walsh’s tape and see he’s the most vocal and aware defender on the court. His defensive upside is massive, but he’s not going to be the team’s best defender from day one. Tatum, Derrick White, Rob, and even Horford are top-tier defenders. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 24, 2023 20:18:30 GMT -5
Wouldn’t mind them looking at somebody like Killian Hayes since I imagine he’ll be made available. He made strides last year, still can’t shoot for his life but his length defensively is useful and he can create for others. Might also still have untapped upside
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Post by philarhody on Jun 24, 2023 21:42:37 GMT -5
I’m not sure. You’d have to consult the NBA coach who employs the “switch everything” scheme. Or you could actually watch Jordan Walsh’s tape and see he’s the most vocal and aware defender on the court. His defensive upside is massive, but he’s not going to be the team’s best defender from day one. Tatum, Derrick White, Rob, and even Horford are top-tier defenders. Oh is this how we argue our points? Let me try: “No, Jordan Walsh is a top tier defender.” How’d I do? |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 24, 2023 21:58:01 GMT -5
I mean Derrick White was literally 2nd team all-defense, I’d venture to say there isn’t a single teenager on the planet ready to be on that squad. It’s not an insult. Doesn’t mean Walsh can’t be on it in the future
Timelord is arguably the most impactful defender in the sport, the Celtics are night and day with and without him
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 24, 2023 22:11:48 GMT -5
Odds are Walsh is barely going to play next year. I’m not sure why we are having this conversation. He’s a second round pick for a reason and this is still a contending team with really good players.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 25, 2023 1:31:41 GMT -5
Wouldn’t mind them looking at somebody like Killian Hayes since I imagine he’ll be made available. He made strides last years, still can’t shoot for his life but his length defensively is useful and he can create for others. Might also still be untapped upside Yeah I've looked at him for the exact reasons you did, D and creating. Likely too much money, type of guy I might target next year on a minimum level deal. Likely best days are in front of him and that's the wrong team for him, then again if his shooting doesn't improve he might be back in Europe soon. It's hard, what we need isn't available. I'm kinda down for White, Pritchard and bring in Madar. Yet it only works if they change the offense. Then I hear Stevens talking about super big lineups of Williams, Horford, Unicorn, Brown and Tatum. It scares me, like he thinks it's just a player mix issue, not the offensive system. I hope I'm wrong. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 25, 2023 9:29:47 GMT -5
Wouldn’t mind them looking at somebody like Killian Hayes since I imagine he’ll be made available. He made strides last years, still can’t shoot for his life but his length defensively is useful and he can create for others. Might also still be untapped upside Yeah I've looked at him for the exact reasons you did, D and creating. Likely too much money, type of guy I might target next year on a minimum level deal. Likely best days are in front of him and that's the wrong team for him, then again if his shooting doesn't improve he might be back in Europe soon. It's hard, what we need isn't available. I'm kinda down for White, Pritchard and bring in Madar. Yet it only works if they change the offense. Then I hear Stevens talking about super big lineups of Williams, Horford, Unicorn, Brown and Tatum. It scares me, like he thinks it's just a player mix issue, not the offensive system. I hope I'm wrong. Slim pickings on the facilitator end of the market. I’ve even looked into guys like Westbrook with the dream that he would buy into a Dish n D role |
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Post by philarhody on Jun 25, 2023 13:15:44 GMT -5
Odds are Walsh is barely going to play next year. I’m not sure why we are having this conversation. He’s a second round pick for a reason and this is still a contending team with really good players. He’s probably not going to play because he’s hot garbage on offense. It’s the same way Sam Hauser doesn’t play because of feet and core strength. Is it a hot take to say “Sam Hauser is the best shooter on the team?” Not really. You could say “no Jayson is top tier.” It’s just not the point. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 25, 2023 13:25:58 GMT -5
Westbrook on Clippers before playoffs was a guy we haven't seen before, lowered shot attempts to lowest since his first few years and way increased his efficiency. Yet still had a ton of TOs.
If he's willing to sign a veteran minimum deal, be a backup and just focus on creating and D I'd be interested. I don't think he'd sign that deal or agree to be a backup though.
If Grant is gone and we can actually use mid-level money, Jae Crowder, Dario Saric or Torrey Craig. Wouldn't mind Alex Len on minimum deal your Embiid insurance type guy. Given Unicorn scores in paint, wouldn’t mind Cousins either. One way to destroy zone D is just throw it in the post.
Listening to the Kings GM talk about why they traded for Colby Jones upsets me, those are the exact reasons I wanted him. A guy that can help their star players and play good D with versatility to guard many positions.
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Post by philarhody on Jun 25, 2023 13:26:03 GMT -5
I mean Derrick White was literally 2nd team all-defense, I’d venture to say there isn’t a single teenager on the planet ready to be on that squad. It’s not an insult. Doesn’t mean Walsh can’t be on it in the future Timelord is arguably the most impactful defender in the sport, the Celtics are night and day with and without him Thybulle, Herb Jones and Lu Dort had first team all defensive impact as rookies. Did they make the squad? Hell no. They couldn’t hit corner threes at respectable rates to play enough. It will likely be the same for Walsh. I’m not trying to place the odds of the all defensive team. I’m saying Walsh could be their best defensive player immediately. Yes, White is excellent and Timelord is very good as well. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 25, 2023 14:05:13 GMT -5
I see a huge problem using Thybulle, Jones and Dort. Stats back up Thybulle and Jones being darn good defenders. Defensive win shares, Defensive boxscore plus minus, Defensive rating and where that ranks on your team. It all checks out, Dort has a negative career boxscore rating, bad Defensive ratings and those ratings aren't even good on his team. You can't make a case saying Dort had first team Defensive impact as a rookie. Numbers say he was about the 6th best defender on that team. He really matters because he's the only one and done guy, Thybulle and Jones spent four years in College. We'd be having a very different conversation if Walsh was a senior and not a freshman.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 25, 2023 14:15:06 GMT -5
BTW Hauser isn't the best offensive player on the team, not even close. He has major issues besides shooting, 17 FT attempts in 108 games, all he basically does it shoot 3 point shots. The comp for "best defender on Celtics" is best offensive player, not just one skill like shooting. Think Isaiah Thomas, his D sucked and he played tons of minutes, because he was our best offensive player.
If Walsh would really be best defender on a loaded defensive team, who's identity has been D, he's playing a role no matter his offense. Thybulle and Jones played a ton as rookies, Dort not so much. College Seniors versus a freshman.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 25, 2023 14:38:45 GMT -5
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Jun 25, 2023 15:23:48 GMT -5
His defensive upside is massive, but he’s not going to be the team’s best defender from day one. Tatum, Derrick White, Rob, and even Horford are top-tier defenders. Oh is this how we argue our points? Let me try: “No, Jordan Walsh is a top tier defender.” How’d I do? Chill out, man. |
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Post by philarhody on Jun 25, 2023 21:53:50 GMT -5
I see a huge problem using Thybulle, Jones and Dort. Stats back up Thybulle and Jones being darn good defenders. Defensive win shares, Defensive boxscore plus minus, Defensive rating and where that ranks on your team. It all checks out, Dort has a negative career boxscore rating, bad Defensive ratings and those ratings aren't even good on his team. You can't make a case saying Dort had first team Defensive impact as a rookie. Numbers say he was about the 6th best defender on that team. He really matters because he's the only one and done guy, Thybulle and Jones spent four years in College. We'd be having a very different conversation if Walsh was a senior and not a freshman. You have a “huge problem” because you’re looking for problems in the data set. The fact that one guy was a one and done doesn’t nullify his defensive efforts against James Harden in a 7 game series as a rookie. So let’s dialogue. How do you define a good NBA defender? |
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