Celtics 2023 Offseason Thread

Still have 1sts in 2024, 2026, and 2029 as well as 8 2nds through 2030, so still some more ammo to go with the trade exception

Maybe we should all just take a moment to think about a closing lineup of Holiday, White, Brown, Tatum and Porzingus. What team in the league wants to defend that? There’s not one guy you can help off of. Last year we had multiple guys you could.

I'm on the fence regarding the trade, I do think they gave up to much but clearly this is an all chips pushed to the middle type move so you sacrifice tomorrow for the win today. On that level it makes alot of sense however others stating Rob was injury prone well so is Porzingas and Hortford looked his age at times in the playoffs and I can't help wondering when the thread is worn thin on those tires with alot of miles on them, we needed that depth for a reason. I'm going to miss Rob as I like to think that I was in early on how good a player he was and what he meant to the team. Also Holiday is already 33 and only has a year left on his contract.
That said he's a great fit for the team and we now have the best starting five in the NBA. Does White start? Maybe we have the best top 6 in the NBA and it will be fun watching some players evolve into more useful roll players such as Pritchard, Sam and Kornet. Alot of changes in one offseason, No Smart, Timelord, Brogdon and Grant Williams either

Not only is there not a weak spot offensively, there’s not a weak spot defensively. They could switch with everyone but Porzingis pretty easily.

I just want him to practice dribbling this off-season.

They signed 7 footer Kylor Kelley to an exhibit 10 deal

You could end games last year with Horford, Tatum, Brown, White and Brogdon, Horford shot almost 45% from 3 last year. You had the 4th best offensive in the league and the 4th best D. The issues in playoffs were as much coaching as the player mix. To make this mix work and I do believe it can, you need to insert a system like the 2018/2019 Celtics, but add in going into the post. That wouldn't be an easy task for a veteran coach that was darn good and that's not what we have. Let's be real our coaching was a huge problem and now you're asking him to change everything and go win a championship. Yeah I have major doubts and the problem with Holiday is your window is short.

The Unicorn isn't close to a Robert Williams type defender, he's not even close to prime Horford. I have to say given some of these comments people are going to be surprised. He was a much better fit playing next to Horford and Williams at PF than playing center and anchoring your D.

Brogdon is probably a better offensive player than Holiday, major upgrade on D. It doesn't make up for losing Robert Williams who might have been the leader in defensive win shares per minute over the last two years. The only way you are better on offense is by playing team ball 100%. Let's be real, as much as we bitched about Smart, the issues run much deeper. Coaching and years of the Jays being influenced by players like Irving and Walker.

2008 worked because those guys were older and put the team first, not individual stats.

Last year was the same thing, Brogdon will fix everything, HR type move. Sure this team will be good during the regular season, that was going to be the case no matter what was done. To be better in playoffs, it's about coaching and the Jays changing the way they play, back to that early run before they spent years working on iso heavy offense. You play the way you did last year, I don't see a better team. I see a team that lost depth, it's best defensive player and a new PG who has really sucked the last two years in the playoffs. Nevermind the Unicorn is likely to miss a ton of games, now with no depth behind him.

Don I don't disagree about Horford, just pointing out without a complete change to the offense it won't be the massive upgrade it should be. The Unicorn standing at 3 point line floor spacing for the Jays isn't some huge upgrade.

I don't think Unicorn is a bad defender, there's a massive difference though in can anchor your D to what the Unicorn is.

Like I said it can work, it just requires massive changes with a young inexperienced coach who was in way over his head last year.

Holiday is 33 years old, which limits your time. I'd look at this much differently if he was younger. Nevermind I'm a huge advanced stat guy. This is what I see per the stats. An older Holiday struggles against good D in playoffs to get to basket and becomes more of a jump shooter in playoffs. Where his 3 point percentage tanks. Heck even in regular season his percentage of shots at rim has gone down for 4 straight years. Now I'll admit I don't know if this is athletic decline or more to do with Bucks offense. The ideal guy for us is age 29 Holiday, over 30% of his shots at rim. Last four years, 33.7%, 27.9%, 22.2% and 19.4% last year. Last four playoffs 32.9%, 22.4%, 17.0% and 10.6% last year. Last four playoffs 3 point shot percentage 29.4%, 36.5%, 33.6% and 49.4%, for a guy who's well below average from distance in playoffs. It causes his true shooting percentage to tank. We don't need another guy just jacking up 3 point shots in the playoffs. While shooting 32%, 30.3%, 31.6% and 28.6% last year playoffs. He is much better than Smart from mid range, but so was Brogdon. His stats against teams like Celtics and Heat just aren't good, the exact teams we need hin to step up against. I truly hope I'm wrong and it's more what the Bucks did than athletic decline. Even his dunks have gone from 20 to 30 a season to single digits. Yeah I'm worried.

It's not just big man depth either, who's your 6th man? What's your playoff rotation? Pritchard, Horford and Hauser? I love Pritchard, it's certainly not ideal if he's your 6th man.

That's a problem with this move, if made earlier you keep Grant and that bench looks a lot better.

I'm not trying to be negative, it's just what I see. I really worry by the time our coach figures this out Holiday is Horford and well past his prime. A guy like Lillard could have produced in the system you ran last year.

I really wonder if Stevens builds teams for his coaches or ones he'd want to coach and he could do well with.

Lot's of good content here. Regarding the sixth-man I think it has to be either White or Big Al, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if those two switch up alot depending upon match-ups against other teams and whether they decide to go with 2 bigs or a smaller line-up. They really need to manage Horford's playing time this year. If only Brogdon passed the exam in the original Porzingas trade, he was all but hurt and raised a stink until Steven traded him. Portland insisted on Williams as part of the trade for Holiday. I wonder if Smart could have been a chip instead of Williams? I doubt it but I can dream about that team. That and a younger Holliday which you already alluded to.  I do think it was an overpay by Stevens but if Jrue was several years younger and had at least another year on his contract I'd feel alot better about the trade. We have a rapidly aging Horford, an injury prone Porzingas and Jrue whose on the back nine of his career. If it does not all come together this year, what then??

The Porzingod isn't simply a 3 point shooter though, he can score at mid range, he can get to the rim because he's surprisingly agile and he knocks FTs. Sure if you just tell him to stand beyond the arc that's not going to help the Jays, but then that's on coaching and that is the area I'm afraid of. We need Joe to not just run an "open wide everyone" offense.

I'll check Holiday more often this season for obvious reason, but everytime I watched him last year he looked absolutely fine. He did not look like an old player, he didn't move like an old player. Athletic decline is possible, but IMO it hasn't been a thing for him.

And on the 6th man, I agree that this team lacks depth. However, look at the main 6 players. They all can score. You can have 2-3 of these guys on the court at all times and the offense shouldn't drop. I guess I'm saying we don't need a high volume scorer bench player, there's too much offense already. I'm worried about health, but honestly it's not Timelord and Smart never had any injury issues. I would like to see Brad another big so we're never at risk of Kornet Time.

Howard Beck and Zach Lowe talked on Lowe Post podcast about how with the new rules and the player empowerment movement, teams are moving to a 2-3 year planning window, not even considering 4-5 years out because too much can change. Celtics definitely displaying that right now. Which I'm okay with. Probably why 5-year-out picks seem to be valued higher than closer term picks.

They also mentioned that Holiday could be Jaylen Brown insurance, if things don't look great over the next year despite the extension. And related to Don's post earlier (which I tried and failed to quote-and-comment), Celtics seem happy with 15-22 mpg for Kornet (esp when Al is resting), sadly. Let's hope that's bluster!

If Porzingis stays healthy (he never has) this team is the prohibitive favorite. If Porzingis is out for the playoffs, this team is about as good as they were last season. That is only a major problem if the chemistry is just as foul as it was with Malcolm and Marcus.