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7/31-8/2 Red Sox @ Mariners Series Thread
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Post by notstarboard on Aug 2, 2023 17:50:54 GMT -5
Honestly I think Cora's been managing his balls off lately with a rotation that basically has 2.5 actual starters in it. Bad day to have a bad day for Schreiber and Cora as well. But some of the crap being tossed his way here today is excessive. WIth the caveat that I've been out of town and haven't been watching the past couple of games, I think Cora has been atrocious this season. He annoys me more consistently than the strike zone, which is saying something, and the frequency is enough that "he probably knows something we don't about player health and availability" just doesn't hold water as an excuse.
It is not hard to gameplan for an opener and follower, which is basically all he's had to do. Every once in a while he's had to ride pitchers longer than he'd like in anticipation of a bullpen game. I don't quibble with those sorts of things. In this case the bullpen is reasonably rested and he decided to put a SIRP who labored through a 27 pitch inning into a second of inning work moments after yanking Crawford at 81 pitches and 5 scoreless. That's just outrageously bad. Full pants on head. Idgaf who the next team on the schedule is; you need to play to win. And Seattle is only 2 GB of us in the WC, soon to be 1. They are one of the worst teams to be throwing away games to.
If you think you need extra innings, you try to get outs from Crawford in the 6th. You do not put Schreiber in for the 7th after 27 ineffective pitches.
I hate leaving Verdugo in to start the 8th against Speier too. That should be Refsnyder all day every day. 163 wRC+ for Refsnyder and 81 wRC+ for Verdugo on the year vs. LHP and Verdugo's in a pretty rough stretch despite the HR yesterday. Cora does that, it could well have been two on two out for Casas down 3. And either Casas would have faced a RHP or Duvall would have faced a LHP too... but nope, now it's 6/7/8 presumably against the closer. Hooray.
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Post by bloomstaxonomy on Aug 2, 2023 17:50:59 GMT -5
There’s not much you can do with Casas and Devers, besides continue to work with them, but once Story comes back I think you’ll see the horrific defensive numbers begin to start normalizing. We’ll likely still be bad, though, which makes me think we could use a LHH 2nd baseman who plays good defense for 2024. Might make a world of difference. Putting Rafaela in CF (or SS every now and then, if you’re giving Story a night off) would help as well. Hoping he hits in the bigs.
The tricky offseason question is what to do with Verdugo? Maybe it’s just easier to keep him than target players who would play well in Fenway’s RF. Duran in left and Yoshida to DH. Not sure if Turner will retire or not (nevermind his likely free agency and whether he wants to stay here), but I don’t think you can fit Verdugo, Turner, and Rafaela on the same roster, given the other pieces. But maybe I’m wrong.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Aug 2, 2023 17:53:24 GMT -5
We need some heroics here. I wonder if Turner can PH ?
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Post by greenmonster on Aug 2, 2023 17:53:35 GMT -5
These fundamentals are maddening and all on Cora. This is basic positioning and knowing where each player is. They have done it all year and is unacceptable. Where was Bernardino? He hasn't pitched too much lately I am so disgusted with this along with a steal of home and DOB is a jinxmaster. Time for Mike Monaco to replace his sorry ass. I am by no means a Cora apologist, however I don't believe this is on him. This is the reason that many of us felt that Bloom needed to add a serviceable starter at the deadline. Not Cy Young but someone that could eat innings and keep them in the game. You can't have two bullpen games every time thru the rotation and then wonder why the bullpen is having issues. Either they are resting from the last bullpen game or getting ready for the next one. Granted Sale, Houck, & Whitlock are coming back but none of them will be stretched out and Houck & Whitlock won't be back for almost two weeks.
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
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Post by radiohix on Aug 2, 2023 17:54:09 GMT -5
Mister filthy closing for the M's Arroyo, Wong and Chang have no chance 😞
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 2, 2023 17:54:23 GMT -5
This is the one aspect of Bloomâs roster building that has consistently frustrated me. We can break down why batting average isnât valued as much and why BABIP and exit velocities imply certain future outcomes, but donât seem to properly value guys who can catch it and throw it at a reasonably big league level. He's added Kiké for CF, Duvall, Story, Mondesi, JBJ, Chang... Bloom clearly values good defense. The bad defensive numbers have a lot to do with a) Kiké being inexplicably atrocious, and b) guys playing out of position to cover gaps in the roster due to injuries or underperformance (e.g. Arroy in RF, Franchy at 1B, etc.).
I do kinda wonder if the coaching staff doesn't emphasize it enough though. I don't really know how else to explain the failures of communication on the field like that Devers/Chang bumble. Or why guys like Devers and Casas can have such frequent lapses.
This year in particular Devers, Casas, Duvall, Turner and Arroyo have all also had pretty notable regressions in their defense which doesn't help.
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 2, 2023 17:57:21 GMT -5
He's added Kiké for CF, Duvall, Story, Mondesi, JBJ, Chang... Bloom clearly values good defense. The bad defensive numbers have a lot to do with a) Kiké being inexplicably atrocious, and b) guys playing out of position to cover gaps in the roster due to injuries or underperformance (e.g. Arroy in RF, Franchy at 1B, etc.). I do kinda wonder if the coaching staff doesn't emphasize it enough though. I don't really know how else to explain the failures of communication on the field like that Devers/Chang bumble. Or why guys like Devers and Casas can have such frequent lapses.
This year in particular Devers, Casas, Duvall, Turner and Arroyo have all also had pretty notable regressions in their defense which doesn't help. Devers is being paid the big %%% this year, he has no excuse for being this bad in the field... and in the past 14 days has only 3 RBI... So he should look infward
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 2, 2023 18:03:05 GMT -5
You know the Mariners comeback was brewing when DOB started marveling about how the Sox owned the series the last 2 years lol in s way, you can't blame Bloom for playing the middle at the deadline. Between the coach (who does deserve criticism) and the way this team lacks consistency, it may be the correct tact. Big series against Jays. Hope the boys come ready to rock.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 2, 2023 18:04:17 GMT -5
I am a big Cora fan but bringing in Bleier was very strange. He is a DFA candidate and they have an off day tomorrow.
Maybe he was prioritizing being fully rested for Toronto.
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Post by manfred on Aug 2, 2023 18:09:32 GMT -5
The Sox are 9-9 since the break, no?
I get that there are guys coming back, but I still think if the Sox make the playoffs it is because someone ahead of them (and Canadian) falls apart. I don’t see a big push.
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Post by greenmonster on Aug 2, 2023 18:09:53 GMT -5
I am a big Cora fan but bringing in Bleier was very strange. He is a DFA candidate and they have an off day tomorrow. Maybe he was prioritizing being fully rested for Toronto. He could end up being the odd man out if/when they activate Sale for the Blue Jays series. Cora likely already knows...It wouldn't be the first time they used someone knowing they will be gone immediately after.
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Post by kingstephanos on Aug 2, 2023 18:23:30 GMT -5
I am a big Cora fan but bringing in Bleier was very strange. He is a DFA candidate and they have an off day tomorrow. Maybe he was prioritizing being fully rested for Toronto. You CANNOT argue with "Cora's Gut™️"
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 2, 2023 18:34:57 GMT -5
The Red Sox beat themselves yet again. The managing was bad.
Schreiber hasn't looked good.
I was wrong about Bleier. He was good, but now I'd say he's good and washed up. They need to get Bernardino into the lefty high leverage role.
And Devers defense is rough to watch. He's already looking like a DH, which is a shame because I think he has the tools to play an acceptable 3b.
Problem is that sooner or later Yoshida will need to be the DH because LF is where Duran will wind up and Rafaela should be the CF soon.
So it'll probably be another 4 years before Raffy is DHing like he should be. Maybe Antonio Anderson will be the 3b by then.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 2, 2023 18:42:32 GMT -5
I had to go out and the Sox were ahead 3-0. Just got home to see the outcome. Perhaps I shouldn't leave the house?
Buckle up - it's likely to be a frustrating .500 ish rest of the season. Not thrilled with the deadline paralysis.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 2, 2023 18:49:42 GMT -5
I am a big Cora fan but bringing in Bleier was very strange. He is a DFA candidate and they have an off day tomorrow. Maybe he was prioritizing being fully rested for Toronto. Gotta win the game in front of you when you're ahead. Should've never brought Schreiber back, and never brought in Bleier. Just bad in-game management coupled with bad defense and game decisions by the players. For a Sox fan you're up 3-0 in the 6th and 3-2 in the 7th. There should've been a hard push to slam the door with Martin for maybe 2 then Jansen.
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Post by terriblehondo on Aug 2, 2023 18:59:56 GMT -5
This is the one aspect of BloomâÂÂs roster building that has consistently frustrated me. We can break down why batting average isnâÂÂt valued as much and why BABIP and exit velocities imply certain future outcomes, but donâÂÂt seem to properly value guys who can catch it and throw it at a reasonably big league level. He's added Kiké for CF, Duvall, Story, Mondesi, JBJ, Chang... Bloom clearly values good defense. The bad defensive numbers have a lot to do with a) Kiké being inexplicably atrocious, and b) guys playing out of position to cover gaps in the roster due to injuries or underperformance (e.g. Arroy in RF, Franchy at 1B, etc.). I do kinda wonder if the coaching staff doesn't emphasize it enough though. I don't really know how else to explain the failures of communication on the field like that Devers/Chang bumble. Or why guys like Devers and Casas can have such frequent lapses.
I think Bloom values a deal. He got Duvall to play center where he is not a good defender. That is why he has always played the corner for other teams. Then again nobody on this team is a good CF. He got him so he didn't have to get a SS and he moved Kiké to SS and that didn't work. Story he got because it was a deal everyone knew he had a bad arm. But Bloom said no problem good to go at short before this season. Mondesi for Taylor no brainer an oft injured reliever for an oft injured SS. I would do the deal 100 times out of 100. Took on JBJ to get minor league players then DFA'd JBJ part way through the season. Chang he DFA'd before he brought him back after seeing how bad SS was. Hamilton bad at defense got him for his speed. Valdez bad at defense got him for his bat. Injuries have made the defense worse with guys out of position without a doubt. But it is not like everyone in the business didn't know that Story had a ticking bomb in his elbow and that Mondesi is always hurt. I mean the Sox have been playing JT at 2nd he wasn't considered a good defender there when he was young. For Bloom it is all about getting a deal. During the game today they were talking about how Cora and the coaches are working with Casas on defense everyday. So if you are working with the guys everyday and they still aren't good. Could it be that the players just aren't good defenders? I think Casas will improve but it will take time. If they can get him to run to first instead of always making the pitcher run all the way to first so he can flip it to them I will count that as a win.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Aug 2, 2023 19:12:08 GMT -5
I am a big Cora fan but bringing in Bleier was very strange. He is a DFA candidate and they have an off day tomorrow. Maybe he was prioritizing being fully rested for Toronto. Gotta win the game in front of you when you're ahead. Should've never brought Schreiber back, and never brought in Bleier. Just bad in-game management coupled with bad defense and game decisions by the players. For a Sox fan you're up 3-0 in the 6th and 3-2 in the 7th. There should've been a hard push to slam the door with Martin for maybe 2 then Jansen. I would counter that with "where was Bernardino"? Cora said it was matchups is why he went with Bleier. He got the lefties out, but in between he g
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Post by blizzards39 on Aug 2, 2023 19:23:02 GMT -5
We have bad defensive players at most positions. This is the one aspect of Bloomâs roster building that has consistently frustrated me. We can break down why batting average isnât valued as much and why BABIP and exit velocities imply certain future outcomes, but donât seem to properly value guys who can catch it and throw it at a reasonably big league level. Brakes a bit. Kiké was a great defender. Just got the tips at SS. Arroyo has historically been good at 2B. Casas was viewed as a good defender. And I think he will be. Devers has definatly taken a step back. Duran 2 forward. Duval has been average or above. One question was how Verdugo could handle RF. He has been really good. Catchers have been solid enough. Turner and Yoshi were brought in for offence. And DH. Neither is a complete butcher. We thought Mondesi might play some, heâs a gold Glover. And letâs not forget Story who chaim brought in. Some of The problem has been injuries and a lot of player movement.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,149
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Post by cdj on Aug 2, 2023 19:24:09 GMT -5
I thought bringing in Schreiber for a 2nd inning after a shaky first inning is unconscionable
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Post by bluechip on Aug 2, 2023 19:24:42 GMT -5
I am a big Cora fan but bringing in Bleier was very strange. He is a DFA candidate and they have an off day tomorrow. Maybe he was prioritizing being fully rested for Toronto. Gotta win the game in front of you when you're ahead. Should've never brought Schreiber back, and never brought in Bleier. Just bad in-game management coupled with bad defense and game decisions by the players. For a Sox fan you're up 3-0 in the 6th and 3-2 in the 7th. There should've been a hard push to slam the door with Martin for maybe 2 then Jansen. Not Martin for 2 innings, that’s a good way to ruin him. Problem is that there isn’t a super reliable 7th inning guy right now, but then again, most years you don’t have three lights out relievers.
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Post by julyanmorley on Aug 2, 2023 19:39:19 GMT -5
I wasn't able to pay close attention to the game, but you can be sure that if Cora inexplicably uses a bad reliever over a good reliever in a high leverage spot it's because of an availability issue.
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Post by bojacksoxfan on Aug 2, 2023 19:41:06 GMT -5
This is the one aspect of Bloomâs roster building that has consistently frustrated me. We can break down why batting average isnât valued as much and why BABIP and exit velocities imply certain future outcomes, but donât seem to properly value guys who can catch it and throw it at a reasonably big league level. He's added Kiké for CF, Duvall, Story, Mondesi, JBJ, Chang... Bloom clearly values good defense. The bad defensive numbers have a lot to do with a) Kiké being inexplicably atrocious, and b) guys playing out of position to cover gaps in the roster due to injuries or underperformance (e.g. Arroy in RF, Franchy at 1B, etc.).
I do kinda wonder if the coaching staff doesn't emphasize it enough though. I don't really know how else to explain the failures of communication on the field like that Devers/Chang bumble. Or why guys like Devers and Casas can have such frequent lapses.
Bloom has made 3 significant investments in position players - Story, Yoshida and Devers. One was a bad defensive SS when he was signed, but you can call him a good defensive player who was chronically injured if you like. The other two are bad defensive players. You can stack up all of the small one year deals to the Mondesis and JBJs on one side of the scale, but if I put 400+M worth of contracts to bad defensive players on the other side of the scale I think we both know what side of the scale will hit bottom. Bloom has guaranteed more money to bad defensive players than to good defensive players is a fact. The Sox defense under Bloom has generally been bad, that is also fact. What that says about how he much or little he values defense is open to interpretation, but it would be nice if our opinions included those facts as a starting point.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,149
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Post by cdj on Aug 2, 2023 19:56:20 GMT -5
He's added Kiké for CF, Duvall, Story, Mondesi, JBJ, Chang... Bloom clearly values good defense. The bad defensive numbers have a lot to do with a) Kiké being inexplicably atrocious, and b) guys playing out of position to cover gaps in the roster due to injuries or underperformance (e.g. Arroy in RF, Franchy at 1B, etc.).
I do kinda wonder if the coaching staff doesn't emphasize it enough though. I don't really know how else to explain the failures of communication on the field like that Devers/Chang bumble. Or why guys like Devers and Casas can have such frequent lapses.
Bloom has made 3 significant investments in position players - Story, Yoshida and Devers. One was a bad defensive SS when he was signed, but you can call him a good defensive player who was chronically injured if you like. The other two are bad defensive players. You can stack up all of the small one year deals to the Mondesis and JBJs on one side of the scale, but if I put 400+M worth of contracts to bad defensive players on the other side of the scale I think we both know what side of the scale will hit bottom. Bloom has guaranteed more money to bad defensive players than to good defensive players is a fact. The Sox defense under Bloom has generally been bad, that is also fact. What that says about how he much or little he values defense is open to interpretation, but it would be nice if our opinions included those facts as a starting point. He wasn’t a bad defensive SS when he signed though, even with the reduced arm. The point that he doesn’t focus enough on D can probably be made without it. He also isn’t chronically injured, the injury has been healed. He had surgery for it. A chronic injury is one that does not go away. Great username btw
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Post by blizzards39 on Aug 2, 2023 20:02:38 GMT -5
Bloom has made 3 significant investments in position players - Story, Yoshida and Devers. One was a bad defensive SS when he was signed, but you can call him a good defensive player who was chronically injured if you like. The other two are bad defensive players. You can stack up all of the small one year deals to the Mondesis and JBJs on one side of the scale, but if I put 400+M worth of contracts to bad defensive players on the other side of the scale I think we both know what side of the scale will hit bottom. Bloom has guaranteed more money to bad defensive players than to good defensive players is a fact. The Sox defense under Bloom has generally been bad, that is also fact. What that says about how he much or little he values defense is open to interpretation, but it would be nice if our opinions included those facts as a starting point. He wasn’t a bad defensive SS when he signed though, even with the reduced arm. The point that he doesn’t focus enough on D can probably be made without it. He also isn’t chronically injured, the injury has been healed. He had surgery for it. A chronic injury is one that does not go away. Great username btw I would not call Yoshida a huge investment. Devers was close to average last year. Story was elite 2B where he played last year. Any body else frustrated just see that the Os did. It was very painful
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Post by incandenza on Aug 2, 2023 20:10:16 GMT -5
He's added Kiké for CF, Duvall, Story, Mondesi, JBJ, Chang... Bloom clearly values good defense. The bad defensive numbers have a lot to do with a) Kiké being inexplicably atrocious, and b) guys playing out of position to cover gaps in the roster due to injuries or underperformance (e.g. Arroy in RF, Franchy at 1B, etc.).
I do kinda wonder if the coaching staff doesn't emphasize it enough though. I don't really know how else to explain the failures of communication on the field like that Devers/Chang bumble. Or why guys like Devers and Casas can have such frequent lapses.
Bloom has made 3 significant investments in position players - Story, Yoshida and Devers. One was a bad defensive SS when he was signed, but you can call him a good defensive player who was chronically injured if you like. The other two are bad defensive players. You can stack up all of the small one year deals to the Mondesis and JBJs on one side of the scale, but if I put 400+M worth of contracts to bad defensive players on the other side of the scale I think we both know what side of the scale will hit bottom. Bloom has guaranteed more money to bad defensive players than to good defensive players is a fact. The Sox defense under Bloom has generally been bad, that is also fact. What that says about how he much or little he values defense is open to interpretation, but it would be nice if our opinions included those facts as a starting point. You can't point to a *really good* signing like Yoshida and say "see? he doesn't care about defense." It's like saying the Red Sox signing and re-signing David Ortiz meant that they didn't care about defense. No, he's just a really good hitter. Same point goes for Devers. As for Story being a "bad defensive player," I... am not even sure what to say really. Story is a good defensive player. Do I really need to cite my sources on that?
My point is not that Bloom only values defense, which would be stupid. It's also not that the defense hasn't been bad under him. The point is just that he constructs the roster with defense as well as offense in mind. Which seems obvious enough that I wouldn't have thought it needed an argument.
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