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9/8-9/10 Red Sox vs. Orioles Series Thread
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Sept 10, 2023 11:18:24 GMT -5
I am not totally against Yamamoto. I’m just saying $200 million is crazy risky. I’m not sure I want to sign anyone. Maybe Montgomery if he is reasonable. But do I want to sign Nola to a long contract? Nope. Sonny Gray, who bombed in NY and is 33? Pass. Just because you have a hole, it doesn’t mean you grab anything to fill it. That’s how we got Panda. I would try to trade for a pitcher. If you have Bello, Montgomery, trade, Houck, Crawford… that is about as good as I think you do next year. Maybe see how Sale does in the bullpen (can he be like Pomeranz)? I'm sorry, what? You have criticized Bloom since he took over for not putting a competitive product on the field, and you continue to praise Dave Dombrowski for his willingness to make short-term win-now moves at the expense of the future. Now the books are finally clear, the lineup is largely set and the team is a couple of top pitchers away from opening the window...and you don't want them to sign anyone?
Honestly, it feels like you just want the team to be bad next year so that you can be right about how far away from success you think they are.
Agreed, maybe we can trade Manfred for a commenter-to-be-named-later. I think the Phillies or Dodgers would make him the happiest…. With all the pessimism on this board maybe it would be a good time to buy stock in Kleenex.
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 10, 2023 11:29:05 GMT -5
B ecause the Sox are in the same position. If you don't develop your own pitching you have to get it from somewhere else. Everyone seems to forget that you cannot win without pitching but nobody wants to draft or pay for free agent pitching because it isn't a safe bet. Then you get into the position the Sox are and you have no frigging choice if you want to win just like DD. Hopefully they get someone like Mad Max who is durable and not someone who ends up with injury issues. This seems problematic. Old POBBO fired because of bad move (that ownership signed off on), next POBBO has not solved the puzzle that is starting pitching in four years and now the assumption is he'll have to take the exact same chance, and perhaps this time on a guy changing leagues and cultures. Yeah I am a pitching, defense guy so watching the sh.t show this year hasn't been fun for me.
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 10, 2023 11:31:10 GMT -5
I had them at 79. It's still possible. I said 88. I guess I'm the board's optimist? No some guys had them over 90
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Post by manfred on Sept 10, 2023 11:31:45 GMT -5
I'm sorry, what? You have criticized Bloom since he took over for not putting a competitive product on the field, and you continue to praise Dave Dombrowski for his willingness to make short-term win-now moves at the expense of the future. Now the books are finally clear, the lineup is largely set and the team is a couple of top pitchers away from opening the window...and you don't want them to sign anyone?
Honestly, it feels like you just want the team to be bad next year so that you can be right about how far away from success you think they are.
Agreed, maybe we can trade Manfred for a commenter-to-be-named-later. I think the Phillies or Dodgers would make him the happiest…. With all the pessimism on this board maybe it would be a good time to buy stock in Kleenex. If you do trade me to the Dodgers, you can expect to get about 1/2 the WAR value in return.
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Post by ephus on Sept 10, 2023 11:32:55 GMT -5
Today we get Ceddanne leading off, Abreu and Urias in the lineup. And FINALLY playing CF. Book it. He is hitting his first HR today. Future so bright. Gotta wear 🕶️s.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Sept 10, 2023 11:53:01 GMT -5
A) I don’t know if they are a few top pitchers away. If they had 1 #1 starter this year, would he be worth 19 games for 1st place? Even 7 games for the WC? If it was a #1 AND a #2, sure, that likely changes most teams. But you could be looking at $60 million a year for 5+ years. B) I said I might sign a mid guy like Montgomery. C) Do you think signing 33-year old Sonny Gray puts you over next year? Is Aaron Nola the difference making ace? I say no in both cases. So why pay out the nose for a guy you can call your “ace” if he is not that? Just because you need pitching doesn’t assume it is there for the taking. D) I said I’d trade for a pitcher. E) I don’t “want” the team to be bad. But I can’t wish them into being better than they are. And forcing moves is a bad idea. Re: DD, I actually hated the Price signing. I think it helped win a WS, so in one sense I can say it worked out… but I thought from go it was a brutal overpay for a pitcher I didn’t love in his prime who was starting to decline. But they “needed” an ace. I’d still avoid repeating it. If Eflin had accepted their offer and they had him instead of Kluber, that would have meant a 5-win swing right there.
In retrospect, the sequence of events where Bloom said "we're going to try to add two #2 starters," then a bunch of pitchers turned down offers that matched or exceeded what they eventually signed for (Eovaldi, Eflin, Heaney) and they made do with Jansen and Kluber is pretty much the thing that screwed up this season.*
But if they go into this offseason with a similar approach and actually manage to sign the guys that are the highest bidders for, I trust their talent evaluation, and even if you stipulate that an Eflin-level value is not likely to be had, a rotation that's something like:
Bello [Eovaldi-equivalent] Sale [Heaney-equivalent] Crawford Houck
Whitlock
...could be quite good.
*Since I can never seem to make a comment like this without someone saying "Aha, you are Bloom's lickspittle!" let me just say that it's not exculpatory; Kluber may have been their plan D but it turned out to be a bad plan D. Senga, for one, is looking like a bargain; why didn't they go after him? Why not Lorenzen? Why has Bloom not been able to pull the trigger on the trade for controllable starting pitching that he keeps teasing?
Eh would Eflin been as effective with this defense though?
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Post by incandenza on Sept 10, 2023 12:00:00 GMT -5
If Eflin had accepted their offer and they had him instead of Kluber, that would have meant a 5-win swing right there.
In retrospect, the sequence of events where Bloom said "we're going to try to add two #2 starters," then a bunch of pitchers turned down offers that matched or exceeded what they eventually signed for (Eovaldi, Eflin, Heaney) and they made do with Jansen and Kluber is pretty much the thing that screwed up this season.*
But if they go into this offseason with a similar approach and actually manage to sign the guys that are the highest bidders for, I trust their talent evaluation, and even if you stipulate that an Eflin-level value is not likely to be had, a rotation that's something like:
Bello [Eovaldi-equivalent] Sale [Heaney-equivalent] Crawford Houck
Whitlock
...could be quite good.
*Since I can never seem to make a comment like this without someone saying "Aha, you are Bloom's lickspittle!" let me just say that it's not exculpatory; Kluber may have been their plan D but it turned out to be a bad plan D. Senga, for one, is looking like a bargain; why didn't they go after him? Why not Lorenzen? Why has Bloom not been able to pull the trigger on the trade for controllable starting pitching that he keeps teasing?
Eh would Eflin been as effective with this defense though? No, this defense would have made any pitcher look worse. But the other side of that coin is that if they can fix the defense (mission already accomplished at SS) some of their current guys ought to look better next year. E.g., Sale has an xERA of 3.71 but an ERA of 4.88.
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Post by scottysmalls on Sept 10, 2023 12:07:30 GMT -5
Agreed, maybe we can trade Manfred for a commenter-to-be-named-later. I think the Phillies or Dodgers would make him the happiest…. With all the pessimism on this board maybe it would be a good time to buy stock in Kleenex. If you do trade me to the Dodgers, you can expect to get about 1/2 the WAR value in return. Heavily baiting the waters here let's see if it gets any bites
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Post by yuchangclan on Sept 10, 2023 12:17:53 GMT -5
I also think Yoshida will have a monster year next season. He's a workaholic, cage rat, who will use some of his struggles this year as motivation. He'll be more use to the travel, grueling schedule, stadiums, pitchers and learn what he needs to do to adjust. He'll be ready to play in front of that wall and learn the carums and bounces. The language and cultural wall will crumble as well. The guy is a monster competitor, we just don't see it because he's quiet and wants to be a good teammate first and foremost. Put it in stone, Yoshi is gonna come to camp ready to rake. Yoshida is 30 years old. He’s not some young kid that is “figuring it out”, he’s a grizzled veteran. Any expected improvements next year could easily be offset as he ages out of his prime, too.
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Post by greenmonster on Sept 10, 2023 12:24:39 GMT -5
Yikes… that defense is not looking great at the moment. Okay, it seems I need to explain that I wasn't actually trying to open an "is Bloom good" discussion. I was responding to the skepticism that Bloom is willing to spend big by pointing out he has spent as much as he's been able to on star players, and also demonstrated a willingness to do so on Japanese players. So I don't understand why we should assume he wouldn't do so again. If you and Guidas think Bloom "grossly overpays" on these big budget items, perhaps you would agree with me against greenmonster that he's capable of winning a bidding war for a major free agent.
Just to clarify I was not suggesting that Bloom/Sox CAN'T sign Yamamoto but rather that they WON'T. That's not even suggesting that I wouldn't be happy if they did.
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 10, 2023 12:26:39 GMT -5
White flag
Paxton is on the IL and is done
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Post by incandenza on Sept 10, 2023 12:29:49 GMT -5
Huh, in retrospect I guess the fact that I wasn't even aware of how Toronto and Seattle did yesterday was my own personal white flag.
Playoff odds at 1.1%, fwiw. My personal goals: 84 wins, finish ahead of the Yankees.
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 10, 2023 12:33:39 GMT -5
After everything, Paxton ended up providing almost the exact average WAR for the money he was paid. He was well above that, but has been below replacement level for a while while he was pitching hurt
Can't imagine he gets the QO so I think the book is closed.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 10, 2023 12:45:44 GMT -5
Whitlock back, Robertson up, Paxton shut down, Jacques Wooing.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 10, 2023 12:49:22 GMT -5
i was watching some football, I'm sorry, what time does this game start ?
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Sept 10, 2023 12:49:51 GMT -5
I also think Yoshida will have a monster year next season. He's a workaholic, cage rat, who will use some of his struggles this year as motivation. He'll be more use to the travel, grueling schedule, stadiums, pitchers and learn what he needs to do to adjust. He'll be ready to play in front of that wall and learn the carums and bounces. The language and cultural wall will crumble as well. The guy is a monster competitor, we just don't see it because he's quiet and wants to be a good teammate first and foremost. Put it in stone, Yoshi is gonna come to camp ready to rake. Yoshida is 30 years old. He’s not some young kid that is “figuring it out”, he’s a grizzled veteran. Any expected improvements next year could easily be offset as he ages out of his prime, too. I actually think his experience (age), wisdom and baseball IQ will help him make these adjustments. For example he came over advertised as an expert of the strikezone. As the season went on he tired which I think got his swing out of whack. He lost some of that great discipline that we saw early in the season, because he started to press, wanting to do too much. next year the walks should go up and the K's should go down. He's 30 years old still within his late prime and he should age well. All the things I said would improve aren't things that will take great athleticism. They're things he's done before.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Sept 10, 2023 12:53:34 GMT -5
Whitlock back, Robertson up, Paxton shut down, Jacques Wooing. I hope the Sox can find a way to keep Kluber off the roster the rest of the way. Much more important to keep getting looks at guys like Llovera and now Robertson to see if there is any real promise.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Sept 10, 2023 12:56:35 GMT -5
Anyone else starting to get worried about finishing the year above .500? The saving opportunity I’m counting on right now to avoid this is actually BALT. I’m hoping they rest the last 4 games of the year, but maybe they won’t because they get the bye. Why should we be worried about that? If we aren't going to make the playoffs, isn't the best alternative to finish with the worst recorded the highest draft position possible? I could care less about finishing ahead of the Yankees -- certainly not as much as I'd appreciate PICKING ahead of the Yankees.
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Post by manfred on Sept 10, 2023 12:57:02 GMT -5
If you do trade me to the Dodgers, you can expect to get about 1/2 the WAR value in return. Heavily baiting the waters here let's see if it gets any bites Self defense.
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Post by manfred on Sept 10, 2023 12:58:10 GMT -5
Are there estimates on this game time?
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,148
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Post by cdj on Sept 10, 2023 13:00:06 GMT -5
It was nice of the Sox to get us to patriots season, which will in turn get us to Celtics season, which will then get us back to a fresh new redsox season
Now that the flag has been waved let’s have some fun with the future Sox World Series winners
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 10, 2023 13:04:31 GMT -5
Are there estimates on this game time? Audio feed said tarp was coming off the field. Radar looks like it could be a long day.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 10, 2023 13:04:33 GMT -5
Anyone else starting to get worried about finishing the year above .500? The saving opportunity I’m counting on right now to avoid this is actually BALT. I’m hoping they rest the last 4 games of the year, but maybe they won’t because they get the bye. Why should we be worried about that? If we aren't going to make the playoffs, isn't the best alternative to finish with the worst recorded the highest draft position possible? I could care less about finishing ahead of the Yankees -- certainly not as much as I'd appreciate PICKING ahead of the Yankees. To each their own, but it's tough for me to understand this perspective. For one thing, pride and dignity and the pleasure of watching them win are just worth a lot more to me than moving up from 16th to 13th in the drafting order or whatever. For another, if things go relatively well the rest of the way then that could contain good signs for next season, whereas if they go into a sad flameout because the player's that are on the books for next year stink then I would not actually feel better about the team's future.
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Post by greenmonster on Sept 10, 2023 13:12:55 GMT -5
Are there estimates on this game time? Audio feed said tarp was coming off the field. Radar looks like it could be a long day. 2:15 pm expected start time....small window to maybe sneak in 5 innings
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 10, 2023 13:12:56 GMT -5
Moving up a couple spots in the middle of the first round just doesn't matter that much. Maybe I'll root for them to lose on the last day of the season or something, but that's about it.
On the other hand, I would like the players to have success, and for the team to have as many bragging rights as possible, and for manfred to have even less material to work with.
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