|
Post by sarasoxer on Sept 29, 2023 13:54:01 GMT -5
Ah yes, I remember how young Eddy Rodriguez, Mookie Betts and JBJ were trained to enjoy losing and not care as young major leaguers in 2015 and 2016, amidst a culture of below-.500 baseball. Yes. Young You don't make it as far as Wilyer and Ceddane and Casas and Wong and the rest if you adopt a "who gives a shit" culture. Of couurse the draft is a crapshoot, but you sure as heck have better odds at 7, 8 or 9 than you do at 13 or 14. Come on now. I can agree that the manager looks incompetent, and has been spectacularly so in his management of the bullpen and unwillingness to play for a win. Nor is he holding the troops together very well. And his petty spats vs Bloom and players IMO hurt the team. I hope the Sox can do better/and or the new PBO can pick his own manager and coaching staff. I don’t believe the players have mailed it in. Abreu, Bello, Bernardino, Crawford, Dalbec, Duvall, Houck, Kelly, McGuire, Murphy, Rafaela, Reyes, Walter, Whitlock, Winckowski, Wong are, each and every one, fighting for jobs. Why would they be quitters? We have been thru crappy seasons before. I grew up on, and am therefore comfortable with “wait til next year”. Especially in the knowledge that this ownership group will continue to win again and again. Glad this is over but anticipate missing Sox games as early as next week. Gerry I agree with all you said excepting that Cora is a poor manager.....Surely nobody thought so in 2018...Hell he was trumpeted as a saint and mastermind...108 f...ing wins. Every year most teams that are truly out of it give the up-and-comers a taste. Forever that seems to have been the model..It does not mean that a team is trying to lose or trying not to win. Often teams and management are lauded for this process especially if those newbies produce the following year. He 'Got his feet wet'..'Saw what the Bigs are about'..'Found out what he needs to work on'...'Team got a chance to see what they have' yada, yada. I believe all of that has value over and above pulling out every stop (like getting Jansen in 3 days in a row) to scrape out one or two more meaningless wins...It doesn't teach or foster a losing attitude in the players. If that were the case we'd sign every cast off major league player and put them on our .500 or below minor league teams. We'd surely win a few more milb games than we have been. And, how often has it been said here...'Sox minor league records are unimportant. The minors are for developing players'. The cherry here, of course, is that we get a higher draft pick. I'll gladly take another Teel or Mayer. I hope at draft time too we 'beat the Yankees' out of a player they covet.
|
|
gerry
Veteran
Enter your message here...
Posts: 1,664
|
Post by gerry on Sept 29, 2023 14:59:19 GMT -5
Sarasoxer. Cora helmed an amazing team in 2018. That was 5 years ago. But even then his penchant for leaving pitchers in too long was troublesome.
Agree about the importance and sometimes joy of seeing Abreu, Murphy, Rafaela, Reyes, Walter can do. One of my favorite parts of the season. Also enjoying the first full years of guys like Bello and Wong; as well as the healthy returns of Houck and Story. Love it all. “Next year” could be pretty special for them and the Sox.
It appears, though, that some big changes are called for this off-season and I think they don’t end with Bloom. Cora won that petty war with Bloom but I hope that doesn’t mean he is safe in his underdog dome.
|
|
|
Post by GyIantosca on Sept 29, 2023 15:23:11 GMT -5
This is simple we would of gotten our answers if Bloom just got some pitching at the deadline. In effect this let Cora off the hook to me. It's not fair to keep running bullpen games. We are the Red Sox this is our city!. LOL. Cora if he got a starter or two The front office would be able to make a fair evaluation on him. This got him a mulligan for this season. Just my opinion. The team did fight. I pointed out the problem with SS and to a lesser 2b. This wasn't dealt with either not to a satisfactory degree.
Totally unacceptable. I listen to the guys on the podcast. I agreed all year with them. I know its gonna get panned in the local news I think give it internally, I already said Romero Jr. Pair these two. If this doesnt work then get new Baseball OPPS.and let him pick the manager. Clean slate.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Sept 29, 2023 16:55:40 GMT -5
Sarasoxer. Cora helmed an amazing team in 2018. That was 5 years ago. But even then his penchant for leaving pitchers in too long was troublesome. Agree about the importance and sometimes joy of seeing Abreu, Murphy, Rafaela, Reyes, Walter can do. One of my favorite parts of the season. Also enjoying the first full years of guys like Bello and Wong; as well as the healthy returns of Houck and Story. Love it all. “Next year” could be pretty special for them and the Sox. It appears, though, that some big changes are called for this off-season and I think they don’t end with Bloom. Cora won that petty war with Bloom but I hope that doesn’t mean he is safe in his underdog dome. I don’t believe there is a “petty war” that was won or lost. Bloom was fired for reasons that had nothing to do with Cora. And Cora’s long-term survival remains in the air. But in this moment, this season (and last) are more clearly a FO failure than a managerial one.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Sept 29, 2023 16:59:43 GMT -5
Meanwhile… no Verdugo in the lineup. He is almost out of chances to get his wRC+ to 100. It’d be a shame to end his Sox career on such a low note. But it would be a crime to extend his Sox career into next season.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Sept 29, 2023 17:03:35 GMT -5
Meanwhile… no Verdugo in the lineup. He is almost out of chances to get his wRC+ to 100. It’d be a shame to end his Sox career on such a low note. But it would be a crime to extend his Sox career into next season. A "crime"...? Even if you've given up hope on him finding another level, he's a 2 WAR player who'll be paid $10 million. There are not better options on the free agent market.
|
|
|
Post by sarasoxer on Sept 29, 2023 17:10:37 GMT -5
This is simple we would of gotten our answers if Bloom just got some pitching at the deadline. In effect this let Cora off the hook to me. It's not fair to keep running bullpen games. We are the Red Sox this is our city!. LOL. Cora if he got a starter or two The front office would be able to make a fair evaluation on him. This got him a mulligan for this season. Just my opinion. The team did fight. I pointed out the problem with SS and to a lesser 2b. This wasn't dealt with either not to a satisfactory degree. Totally unacceptable. I listen to the guys on the podcast. I agreed all year with them. I know its gonna get panned in the local news I think give it internally, I already said Romero Jr. Pair these two. If this doesnt work then get new Baseball OPPS.and let him pick the manager. Clean slate. That would have been great! But, at what cost? For a couple of middling innings eaters we could have tossed in Verdugo and, take your pick, Mayer, Rafaela, Gonzalez etc. Our impending FAs would not have mattered. Sorry, that doesn't make it for me. Yeah, we would be better short term but bitching long term in mediocrity. How about a mix of the Oriole's process (sage high draft picks) and Tampa (find the off radar gems?).
|
|
|
Post by Underwater Johnson on Sept 29, 2023 17:15:50 GMT -5
Meanwhile… no Verdugo in the lineup. He is almost out of chances to get his wRC+ to 100. It’d be a shame to end his Sox career on such a low note. But it would be a crime to extend his Sox career into next season. A "crime"...? Even if you've given up hope on him finding another level, he's a 2 WAR player who'll be paid $10 million. There are not better options on the free agent market. I want either homegrown kids with a chance to blossom or 4-5 WAR players getting paid. I don't want 2 WAR players in the last year of a contract that I definitely don't want to extend. Cut the cord.
|
|
|
Post by terriblehondo on Sept 29, 2023 17:16:26 GMT -5
I would think that Verdugo could manage to be focused and play as good as he is going to play with it being a contract year. I am not a fan of his but I think he might be worth more to the Sox for a year. I wouldn't resign him though no matter what kind of year he has.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Sept 29, 2023 17:22:16 GMT -5
A "crime"...? Even if you've given up hope on him finding another level, he's a 2 WAR player who'll be paid $10 million. There are not better options on the free agent market. I want either homegrown kids with a chance to blossom or 4-5 WAR players getting paid. I don't want 2 WAR players in the last year of a contract that I definitely don't want to extend. Cut the cord. You have to understand it's not possible to field a team of solely 4+ WAR players and promising rookies, right? Even the Braves have only 5-7 4 WAR players. The Dodgers have 4. The Orioles have 2. It's just bananas to say that you would have no ues for a 2 WAR player on a 1-year/$10 million salary.
|
|
|
Post by julyanmorley on Sept 29, 2023 17:26:04 GMT -5
The Red Sox are -120 favorites in this game
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Sept 29, 2023 17:46:19 GMT -5
I want either homegrown kids with a chance to blossom or 4-5 WAR players getting paid. I don't want 2 WAR players in the last year of a contract that I definitely don't want to extend. Cut the cord. You have to understand it's not possible to field a team of solely 4+ WAR players and promising rookies, right? Even the Braves have only 5-7 4 WAR players. The Dodgers have 4. The Orioles have 2. It's just bananas to say that you would have no ues for a 2 WAR player on a 1-year/$10 million salary. Look, the guy must be tough to defend. He is basically a defense-first rightfielder with attitude issues who has never even approached what his advocates expected out of him. If you go just on WAR (without distinction regarding how it is accumulated), I suspect Duvall would be equally valuable in RF — and would be a better lineup fit. I actually am surprised Verdugo gets such an easy ride around here. He has never lived up to his potential and seems disinterested for ling stretches. That is not an appealing package.
|
|
|
Post by soxin8 on Sept 29, 2023 17:53:48 GMT -5
I have a dream Cleveland will trade Bieber's last year for Verdugo's last year.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Sept 29, 2023 18:09:03 GMT -5
You have to understand it's not possible to field a team of solely 4+ WAR players and promising rookies, right? Even the Braves have only 5-7 4 WAR players. The Dodgers have 4. The Orioles have 2. It's just bananas to say that you would have no ues for a 2 WAR player on a 1-year/$10 million salary. Look, the guy must be tough to defend. He is basically a defense-first rightfielder with attitude issues who has never even approached what his advocates expected out of him. If you go just on WAR (without distinction regarding how it is accumulated), I suspect Duvall would be equally valuable in RF — and would be a better lineup fit. I actually am surprised Verdugo gets such an easy ride around here. He has never lived up to his potential and seems disinterested for ling stretches. That is not an appealing package. Because I'm not judging him on what he was "supposed" to become or whatever. What I am saying is that he is a 2 WAR player who is going to cost $10 million and that is a bargain. Your fixation on this topic is well known, but you just aren't going to do better than that. Like yeah, Duvall might be a comparable talent; but he's going to cost more (and is older and more injury-prone, so riskier).
Trading Verdugo is totally conceivable. But saying it's a "crime" to not trade him, or that a 2 WAR veteran on a one-year contract is inherently worthless like Mr. Johnson was saying, just doesn't make any sort of sense at all.
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Sept 29, 2023 18:15:07 GMT -5
I’m not going to dive headfirst into the Verdugo argument because… well, a lot of reasons, one of which being I’m perfectly fine if they decide to move on at this point. But I would just like to point out that there is some logical inconsistency with a select group of people who constantly harp on Trevor Story’s $/WAR while conveniently ignoring Verdugo’s when they throw him under the bus.
Verdugo is certainly flawed on and off the field and it’s a position they could easily seek to improve this winter, but having him on your team is far from the worst outcome in the world.
|
|
|
Post by wildsox on Sept 29, 2023 18:21:25 GMT -5
well, some real competitive At-Bats so far
|
|
|
Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 29, 2023 18:21:30 GMT -5
The current Red Sox offensive performance redefines "boring"
|
|
|
Post by 27th Man on Sept 29, 2023 18:22:37 GMT -5
After each game, some pitcher(s) is shut down for the year. We could still see one or more AAA pitchers added as re-inforcements
i.e. Bello is done
|
|
|
Post by stevedillard on Sept 29, 2023 18:24:19 GMT -5
Text from my god son, an Orioles fan
red sox do not look like they’re still interested in playing baseball
|
|
|
Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 29, 2023 18:25:19 GMT -5
Text from my god son, an Orioles fan red sox do not look like they’re still interested in playing baseball That quote has accuracy for all of September
|
|
|
Post by 27th Man on Sept 29, 2023 18:26:56 GMT -5
Text from my niece, a Sox fan
red sox fans do not look like they’re still interested in watching baseball
|
|
|
Post by manfred on Sept 29, 2023 18:28:16 GMT -5
Look, the guy must be tough to defend. He is basically a defense-first rightfielder with attitude issues who has never even approached what his advocates expected out of him. If you go just on WAR (without distinction regarding how it is accumulated), I suspect Duvall would be equally valuable in RF — and would be a better lineup fit. I actually am surprised Verdugo gets such an easy ride around here. He has never lived up to his potential and seems disinterested for ling stretches. That is not an appealing package. Because I'm not judging him on what he was "supposed" to become or whatever. What I am saying is that he is a 2 WAR player who is going to cost $10 million and that is a bargain. Your fixation on this topic is well known, but you just aren't going to do better than that. Like yeah, Duvall might be a comparable talent; but he's going to cost more (and is older and more injury-prone, so riskier).
Trading Verdugo is totally conceivable. But saying it's a "crime" to not trade him, or that a 2 WAR veteran on a one-year contract is inherently worthless like Mr. Johnson was saying, just doesn't make any sort of sense at all.
Well, I’d rather have Abreu or whomever pushing himself than a guy who has historically underperformed on a team that struggles to reach its potential.
|
|
radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,286
|
Post by radiohix on Sept 29, 2023 18:28:43 GMT -5
Nick Pivetta is the best #5 in the AL East entering next year.
|
|
|
Post by bloomstaxonomy on Sept 29, 2023 18:30:13 GMT -5
Am I crazy for wanting to extend Pivetta?? I’ve wanted to DFA him at times over the past couple of years. Now I’d dangle 3/36 in front of him.
|
|
|
Post by terriblehondo on Sept 29, 2023 18:30:42 GMT -5
Nick Pivetta is the best #5 in the AL East entering next year. Well one thing for sure is Nick is never not interested.
|
|