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Post by bishop on Jul 17, 2024 16:10:04 GMT -5
I suspect the disagreement with Judon is over the length he wants more than straight $$$... totally get why he's pushing to lock in more now because that's how the game is played but what are the odds Keion White is better than him by the end of 2024? Or that money is better spent next FA looking for the next Judon? Even if you think we can push during Maye's rookie deal it probably isn't happening this season as he gets his feet wet, I'm out on an Aiyuk deal + top of the market extension for the same reason. (Especially since SF seems quite content to ride it out this year when they think he could be a key piece for a Super Bowl offense.)
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 17, 2024 16:27:55 GMT -5
I’d trade a 2nd for Aiyuk, I wouldn’t trade a 1st
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 17, 2024 19:27:51 GMT -5
Bryce Huff just signed a 3 year deal at over $17 million a year for 3 years. That's the 17th most per season for an edge guy, 14 million is 21st. Franchise tag is going to be well north of $20 million, closer to $30 million. Top of the market is $34 million a year. Are we worried about a torn bicep long-term? I'd be topping my offer out around 3 years at $17.5 million. I want to go for it under Mayes rookie deal and Judon is such a key piece to this team. Bryce Huff is 26… am I worried about a torn bicep long term? No but I’m worried about an old guy (by nfl standards) body breaking down. What are recent contract equivalents for a 32 year old edge rusher? Guys his caliber, basically Vonn Miller's mega deal and an older Cameron Jordan deal. I get it, you never know, but plenty of edge guys can play great till mid to late 30s, some can't. I'll take the chance on him for 3 years at $17.5 million versus trying to draft a replacement or paying guys like Huff just because he's younger. Judon is the definition of true impactful talent and game changer. Now if he wants more than that or more years, I'm not doing that until he goes out and has another PB level type year. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 17, 2024 21:26:42 GMT -5
Belichick wouldn’t be giving him the new deal he wants I’ll tell you that much
I would move Judon to a contender for a pick if he wants tbh
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 18, 2024 12:13:24 GMT -5
Belichick wouldn’t be giving him the new deal he wants I’ll tell you that much I would move Judon to a contender for a pick if he wants tbh Love the player, but he's pointless for this team. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 18, 2024 12:28:07 GMT -5
Well if you want to trade him, I'd say NFL trading deadline is the time.
If you wanted to get creative offer Judon and Juju to 49ers, while paying down their salaries to make it equal pay wise. You could insert Osborne if they like him more.
I'd just say, while they clearly aren't going all in. They do seem to be trying to show improvement and replacing Judon won't be easy.
It's like with Gilmore, did you move on too early?
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 18, 2024 14:18:12 GMT -5
Belichick wouldn’t be giving him the new deal he wants I’ll tell you that much I would move Judon to a contender for a pick if he wants tbh Love the player, but he's pointless for this team. He’s not pointless, a losing culture is hard to break out of in the NFL and if he’s a guy that is a true leader that holds a lot of value as well. But there is a point where the cost is way too high. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 18, 2024 17:30:59 GMT -5
Love the player, but he's pointless for this team. He’s not pointless, a losing culture is hard to break out of in the NFL and if he’s a guy that is a true leader that holds a lot of value as well. But there is a point where the cost is way too high. I suppose, but the defense was fine without him last year and he probably won't be here for the turnaround either. I would rather the resources going into the offense and doing everything they can to develop Maye. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 19, 2024 10:38:17 GMT -5
If you move on from Judon you open a huge hole on the D and you'll have to spend money or draft picks trying to fill it. Most of the league is looking for pass rushing help and Judon has been one of the best in the league the minute he joined the Patriots.
He's so much more consistent and impactful over a player like Chandler Jones. Who's been a better pass rusher for the Patriots?
With a rookie QB and this team's salary cap, it's not like you can only do one thing. Paying Judon doesn't mean you can't go after help on offense. If he wants 20 plus million a year or something crazy like 5 year okay. RJP is correct there is a point where it doesn't make sense. It's just where that point is.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 19, 2024 19:21:39 GMT -5
The defense was fine without Judon last year. Even still, we don't know how he'll be after the injury and we do know he has some history of fading late in the year. Actually, like Chandler Jones.
If the options are Judon or no one. I'm taking Judon. If the option is Judon or a solid LT or a WR like Aiyuk then I'm taking the weapons as the goal of this year is to develop Drake Maye.
I get wanting to break a losing culture, but I don't think this team is winning 8 games this year as currently constructed. Plus the wild card of not knowing if Mayo is going to be a good head coach. I think he'll be fine. I think the defense will be good either way. I think the OL is a major red flag. I think the WR group is weak and I think Jackobi, while a great stop gap QB, don't think he has the skillet to elevate an offense. He's better than Mac and Zappe. Judon turning 32 and coming off that injury. I think the money could be better spent on what they currently need and I would like to see him to go to a playoff contender. But if the option is just saving money for the sake of it by all means bring him back.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 19, 2024 22:56:08 GMT -5
For me that's the strength of the team, a fine defense basically adding Judon and Gonzales, has a chance to be a lot better than fine. Add an upgrade at QB, a run first offense if they can make it work and it's an interesting team.
You still have the #1 cap space next year, over a 100 million and easy ways to get more. So Judon at the numbers I'm talking about isn't stopping you from adding best top paid WR and OT next year. Basically you can still do whatever you want! Judon basically no matter what you pay him, is not stopping you. On the contrary, keeping Judon basically means you need to do very little on the D and can go after offense 100% both with draft picks and free agent signings.
What we all watched this year, is that getting top free agents while being horrible isn't easy. So there’s certainly value in this team being seen as on the rise. Even though tanking for more high picks also makes sense. That certainly seems to be the plan, no all in for a quick rebuild. Yet they also seem to want to field a competitive team.
I actually really like this team and really do believe they can surprise people if that darn OL holds up. Now surprising people likely means fighting for a playoff spot or sneaking into a last seed type thing.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 19, 2024 23:14:58 GMT -5
I actually really like this team and really do believe they can surprise people if that darn OL holds up. Now surprising people likely means fighting for a playoff spot or sneaking into a last seed type thing. If the OL holds up, do you agree with my previous idea of having BAZOOKA JOE coming in on any given random down to throw a hail mary? I feel like we really need this! |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 20, 2024 11:20:07 GMT -5
I actually really like this team and really do believe they can surprise people if that darn OL holds up. Now surprising people likely means fighting for a playoff spot or sneaking into a last seed type thing. If the OL holds up, do you agree with my previous idea of having BAZOOKA JOE coming in on any given random down to throw a hail mary? I feel like we really need this! Again why would you want that? The players accuracy over 10 yards is horrible and you have Drake Maye who has a cannon with much better accuracy. He's a long-term project, not a year one weapon. The only reason you should be playing Joe Milton as a rookie is if you want to Tank! |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 21, 2024 10:25:38 GMT -5
Florio says they’ve been making offers for Aiyuk. Around the draft they offered a 2nd and were turned down
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 21, 2024 19:14:36 GMT -5
Florio says they’ve been making offers for Aiyuk. Around the draft they offered a 2nd and were turned down Are we supposed to believe anything Florio says? Honest question |
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Post by bcsox on Jul 21, 2024 19:39:03 GMT -5
Assuming Maye isn’t playing much this year, then what is the realistic goal for this team, making the playoffs with Brisset, who has a horrendous offensive line and at best case, a developing group of skill players? No shot. Also I wonder if last years D was propped up by playing a series of bad quarterbacks, where this year they are getting the iron.
Judon is a good player who has much much more value to a contender then here where he may be the difference between say 4 and 5 wins.
I guess the issue is do you believe his value is more now or at the deadline? Do you wait until a true contender loses and edge rusher?
If you keep Judon to start the season can you keep him healthy and motivated(if the team is losing) until the deadline?
What is his max worth? A third? Maybe a 2nd?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 21, 2024 21:40:35 GMT -5
Do people realize how hard it is to get 4 or less wins? Last years team wasn't some all-time bad team, lots of close losses and so much went wrong! Like losing maybe your teams best two players early in the year. We had games down almost every CB. Not only is Gonzales coming back, but also Marcus Jones.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 22, 2024 5:56:24 GMT -5
It’s hard to know much of anything at this point, until we see the offensive line.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 22, 2024 9:17:19 GMT -5
I don't think that's true, NFL history shows us being a four win team isn't easy and Van Pelts system is more like Patricia system he went too when OL was horrible. It's just a better, much more proven system. Everyone complained like crazy about it and thought I was crazy for defending it. They loved our new OC last year switching back to the old system. That worked out well! You fully understand why they took Robinson after watching tape on Van Pelt system. He's a proven OC and has a proven veteran QB that knows the system. The offense should be better, it's just how much better and there's nothing crazy about that, given how bad last years offense was! Mac Jones after playing one of his best games versus the Bill's, just fell apart. Only QB I've ever seen get worse as the season goes along for 3 straight years!
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 22, 2024 10:55:40 GMT -5
If the offensive line is worse this year than it was last (entirely possible) don’t just assume the offense is better. I’d bet on the fact the offense will be better but it’s not a given. Also; let’s not just assume the defense is going to be just as good as last year because Judon and Gonzales are returning. They lost the best ever at game planning and making in game adjustments.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 23, 2024 12:04:45 GMT -5
You can always argue anything is possible, a good before the season projection isn't worst or best case type crap. It's middle of the road of those two things.
Last year the offense was 31 in points and 30th in yards. A big part of that was clueless OC and a big mouth clueless OL coach, the team got better when he left. Those hires Kraft forced on Bill because Patricia was so bad. Rotating through RTs, having Sow spend all off-season playing RT, then throwing him in to RG after almost no practice time. 60% of the OL should be locked in and good. Onwenu first off-season actually preparing to plat RT. Sow got better as the season went along.
Now look at the system, an OC with a much better history of NFL success and it's something we haven't seen before as Patriot fans. I recommend people go watch tape of what the Browns did over the last 4 years. The system is designed to help your OL, the whole team blocks on the move. The more I study it, the more you understand the moves they made. Also too bad Strange isn't fully healthy yet, this type of system is exactly the type for him to Excell. Makes sense, somewhat similar to Rams system and they wanted him. Guy like Juju could easily make the team if he's one of their best blockers. Our two new LT were picked because of how they play in space, not like the old system of power inline blocking. TE blocking is 2nd level against LBers and safeties. Your new inline TE blockers are extra OL, yet on the move. The whole run game is directional, not just straight ahead power running. Should be absolutely ideal for our two RBs and I would be shocked if the running game wasn't much better.
Then passing is taking deep shots off of play action. Hard to know how good it could be, but better than last years team is such a crazy low bar that I see it as likely.
The defense when healthy had two big issues, LB in coverage and no true free safety. We brought in a veteran LB who's way better in coverage and if reports are right Dial our lone defensive draft pick will possibly be playing some FS. We lost a lot more than just Judon and Gonzales to injuries last year. Also no more Myles Bryant! If the defense can't be middle of the pack in 15th scoring D, then we picked the wrong HC, who kept most of the staff together. If Bill was still coach, I'd be saying we should have a top 5 defense all day long.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 25, 2024 5:45:20 GMT -5
Looks like the plan is for Onwenu to play RG. Obviously this could change quickly, but it was this way in OTAs as well.
How things lined up yesterday:
1st: Chuks Okorafor-Sidy Sow-David Andrews-Mike Onwenu-Calvin Anderson
2nd: Vederian Lowe-Michael Jordan-Nick Leverett-Onwenu-Caedan Wallace
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 25, 2024 8:41:56 GMT -5
Intrigued to see what he looks like. Understandable he was subpar before given the Malaria
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 25, 2024 9:41:45 GMT -5
Intrigued to see what he looks like. Understandable he was subpar before given the Malaria Ideally Onwenu is a guard because he can dominate there versus just be a very good RT. And if you can have monsters like Sow and Onwenu inside that’s nice. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 25, 2024 14:23:41 GMT -5
Okorafor said coaches will be changing up line all the time early in camp, cross training.
Example top two RT were Lowe and Wallace today.
Per PFF Onwenu was one of the top OT in football the minute he switched to RT in week 7! He actually was playing horrible at RG last year, that though was likely do to injury and getting a late start in camp.
Makes sense, you know who your OG basically are roster wise, OTs not so much. Remember it's basically a completely new coaching staff that for example hasn't seen these guys before in as Onwenu said live football. Though it was crazy how he just started playing crazy good the minute he switched positions.
Onwenu did say he was surprised, so we'll see over the next week or two what's going on.
We also got reports that the defense is getting into the back field a lot. This is likely going to take some time to get a clear picture. It's a completely new radically different system on offense, with D playing basically the same.
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