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Patriots 2024 Offseason Thread
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Post by texs31 on Aug 19, 2024 13:38:32 GMT -5
Do we really believe this is a TRUE competition though? If this was a team expected to contend? Sure. If we were talking about 2 candidates whose future role and timeline were comparable. Probably.
But the comparison has less to do with Jacoby vs Drake than it does Drake sitting vs Drake playing. Is he showing enough of what they want to see in this stage of his development to move him on to the next stage? Will he progress better in a helmet or a baseball cap?
Of course, at some point, you'll want him in with the 1s if he really has a chance (got to see at least SOME work with projected starters on the OL today, I read).
The other thing to consider in this "competition" is the impact of the Krafts wanting their "shiny new toy" out there. Would it surprise any of us to learn that was a component?
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 19, 2024 14:20:02 GMT -5
Tell me one other true veteran corner in the group that’s done anything in the league? It’s a young inexperienced group outside of Jonathan Jones. That’s just a fact. Marco Wilson going into 4th year has started 37 games, while playing in 44 games. Shaun Wade 4th year, coming off playing in 14 games and 6 starts. I certainly don't count guys in 4th year that have started games as young inexperienced players. Only two players with a chance of making the team haven't started games in the NFL. Marco Wilson may qualify, I truly don’t know enough about him, but I’ve barely heard of him this camp so your 5th corner can’t really be your leader unless it’s a Wiley old vet that’s way past his prime with big name and production value behind him. Wade absolutely does not qualify as a guy who should be the example for your group. He’s a journeyman that was on the team and played last year because of injuries and he may not even make the team this year. So point is just because a guys been around a bit that doesn’t qualify him. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 19, 2024 16:21:58 GMT -5
Marco Wilson going into 4th year has started 37 games, while playing in 44 games. Shaun Wade 4th year, coming off playing in 14 games and 6 starts. I certainly don't count guys in 4th year that have started games as young inexperienced players. Only two players with a chance of making the team haven't started games in the NFL. Marco Wilson may qualify, I truly don’t know enough about him, but I’ve barely heard of him this camp so your 5th corner can’t really be your leader unless it’s a Wiley old vet that’s way past his prime with big name and production value behind him. Wade absolutely does not qualify as a guy who should be the example for your group. He’s a journeyman that was on the team and played last year because of injuries and he may not even make the team this year. So point is just because a guys been around a bit that doesn’t qualify him. Per reports he's spent multiple practices as CB#2 opposite Gonzales, but they have also played other people there. He's started both preseason games and was with top unit yesterday at practice. If you don't know that, maybe don't act like you know what's going on at CB? Goes from veteran that's done anything to now a certain level veteran lol. By NFL standards Wade is a veteran who actually played very well last year. Big reason the team didn't fall apart losing it's top four CBs early in the year. There is a huge difference in wanting a veteran with experience for Culture versus basically saying you want a high end starter veteran. Sorry, that's not for culture. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 19, 2024 16:27:11 GMT -5
Do we really believe this is a TRUE competition though? If this was a team expected to contend? Sure. If we were talking about 2 candidates whose future role and timeline were comparable. Probably. But the comparison has less to do with Jacoby vs Drake than it does Drake sitting vs Drake playing. Is he showing enough of what they want to see in this stage of his development to move him on to the next stage? Will he progress better in a helmet or a baseball cap? Of course, at some point, you'll want him in with the 1s if he really has a chance (got to see at least SOME work with projected starters on the OL today, I read). The other thing to consider in this "competition" is the impact of the Krafts wanting their "shiny new toy" out there. Would it surprise any of us to learn that was a component? Nope, but that's the point, Mayo is saying it is. Literally just said we don't have a QB starter and Maye could be starting game one. Yet once again Brissett takes all first team reps. I agree, I don't want him playing and I don’t think it's wrong to slow play him. My issue is that's not what Mayo is saying. Zero reason not to name Brissett the starter after not giving Maye any first team reps. |
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 19, 2024 17:17:45 GMT -5
Tell me one other true veteran corner in the group that’s done anything in the league? It’s a young inexperienced group outside of Jonathan Jones. That’s just a fact. Young Marcus graded well in two categories his rookie year: passer rating against & decidedly less action than a typical slot corner gets (the analyst I read attributed this to tight coverage = his assignment well covered, thus no throw). But your larger point holds: Jonathan Jones is a very good and accomplished CB. I would NOT be looking to offload him. |
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 19, 2024 17:30:09 GMT -5
ESPN Insider Bill Barnwell is optimistic about the 2024 Patriots (a couple of snippets from an expansive column on surprise playoff contenders & teams he projects to have improved):
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 19, 2024 17:47:17 GMT -5
Marco Wilson may qualify, I truly don’t know enough about him, but I’ve barely heard of him this camp so your 5th corner can’t really be your leader unless it’s a Wiley old vet that’s way past his prime with big name and production value behind him. Wade absolutely does not qualify as a guy who should be the example for your group. He’s a journeyman that was on the team and played last year because of injuries and he may not even make the team this year. So point is just because a guys been around a bit that doesn’t qualify him. Per reports he's spent multiple practices as CB#2 opposite Gonzales, but they have also played other people there. He's started both preseason games and was with top unit yesterday at practice. If you don't know that, maybe don't act like you know what's going on at CB? Goes from veteran that's done anything to now a certain level veteran lol. By NFL standards Wade is a veteran who actually played very well last year. Big reason the team didn't fall apart losing it's top four CBs early in the year. There is a huge difference in wanting a veteran with experience for Culture versus basically saying you want a high end starter veteran. Sorry, that's not for culture. Marco Wilson was released by the Cardinals last year and had to restructure his cheap deal to less money to stick on the Pats roster despite them having a crap ton of cap space to use so no he hasn’t really done anything in the league. Starting some games for some of the worst teams in football and getting cut by them and having to take less money to stick all by 25 isn’t qualifying you as a veteran leader. And starting preseason games is meaningless. It’s been an injured group. He hasn’t been starting because he’s been stellar in camp. None of those guys have been. Honestly, not even Gonzalez. Wade isn’t even a roster lock at this point so GTFOH with him. But by all means trade all your veterans for 5th round picks. I’m sure that’ll go over well and work out for us. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 19, 2024 20:00:49 GMT -5
So now our coaches know nothing? Greatest defensive coach ever claimed Wilson and the new guys are starting him and giving him first team reps. That must mean absolutely nothing because RJP didn't pay attention.
It wasn't a 5th, as I explained and first it's a Madden trade, now it's nothing when Judon was traded for a 3rd.
Still can't wrap my head around people talking about Culture after trading our best player right before the season starts when you have tons of cap space. That says one thing to the players, we are rebuilding. So if you want to rebuild, do it and play the young guys. If trading Judon made sense because he wasn't going to be part of the Future, the same applies to Jones. Saying otherwise makes zero sense, he's no where near the level Judon was.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 19, 2024 23:29:16 GMT -5
You guys have been going at it for a while, but are teams even offering that for Jones? He was alright last season, but I’m not sure teams are salivating over him at this point in the year. Maybe move him by deadline in case he’s good and some contender has an injury.
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Post by philarhody on Aug 20, 2024 5:14:41 GMT -5
Do we really believe this is a TRUE competition though? If this was a team expected to contend? Sure. If we were talking about 2 candidates whose future role and timeline were comparable. Probably. But the comparison has less to do with Jacoby vs Drake than it does Drake sitting vs Drake playing. Is he showing enough of what they want to see in this stage of his development to move him on to the next stage? Will he progress better in a helmet or a baseball cap? Of course, at some point, you'll want him in with the 1s if he really has a chance (got to see at least SOME work with projected starters on the OL today, I read). The other thing to consider in this "competition" is the impact of the Krafts wanting their "shiny new toy" out there. Would it surprise any of us to learn that was a component? That’s the problem. The issue isn’t whether Drake should or shouldn’t start. But it feels like Mayo and the team were totally unprepared for the fact that Maye might actually be better than (or simply in the same ballpark as) Jacoby by the time September rolls around. If you drafted him 3rd overall you had to know there was a chance he’d be the best quarterback on the roster. And yet you operated with rep allocation and worked the media like this kid was some sort of project who was super raw. It just feels indecisive and unprepared. |
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Post by texs31 on Aug 20, 2024 6:25:02 GMT -5
But do you believe he should start just because he's the best QB on the roster? Or should he start only if it's what's best for his long term development (maybe those are in line; maybe not).
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 20, 2024 7:14:18 GMT -5
So now our coaches know nothing? Greatest defensive coach ever claimed Wilson and the new guys are starting him and giving him first team reps. That must mean absolutely nothing because RJP didn't pay attention. It wasn't a 5th, as I explained and first it's a Madden trade, now it's nothing when Judon was traded for a 3rd. Still can't wrap my head around people talking about Culture after trading our best player right before the season starts when you have tons of cap space. That says one thing to the players, we are rebuilding. So if you want to rebuild, do it and play the young guys. If trading Judon made sense because he wasn't going to be part of the Future, the same applies to Jones. Saying otherwise makes zero sense, he's no where near the level Judon was. For clarity: The madden trade comment wasn’t about the return, it was about stock piling assets for future seasons by dumping “everything possible” (hyperbole). It wasn’t meant to be a dig at you; it was meant to illustrate a point that there are other factors at play. You said 5th rd value; I didn’t think I had to continue to fully breakdown your proposal so I shorthanded it. I never said he may not turn out to be really good nor did I say he should be cut. I just pointed out, he hasn’t proven anything of significance in the league yet. He’s still young and has 3 years experience now. Sure a leap could be forthcoming. I specifically said 2 things about the Judon trade: 1. I said it was a remove a distraction trade. They would have kept him on his current contract; it was seemingly their preference to do so. He was causing a distraction so they dealt him when they were able to get their asking price. 2. I also said they NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL moving forward. It’s one thing to make ONE trade, like they did, if a guy IS unhappy about their contract, but to start dumping veterans who are being good teammates, are good players and who are happy with their contracts is an entirely different thing. Would you agree with that? |
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 20, 2024 7:15:49 GMT -5
From Albert Breer:
I do really hope we see this reshuffle. Get Lowe out of there, flip Okorafor to the left side, insert Robinson at RG and kick Onwenu outside.
“The offensive line is where the biggest questions lie, and even now, with the opener three weeks away, where guys will line up is in flux. Mike Onwenu, whom the Patriots gave a big extension to this offseason, has spent most of the summer at guard, but could move out to right tackle. Fourth-rounder Layden Robinson—a really strong, aggressive guard who comes with an SEC pedigree—has emerged, and New England could move Onwenu outside to accommodate him. Meanwhile, Chukwuma Okorafor has gotten reps more recently at left tackle, after working a lot on the right side, with Vederian Lowe and third-rounder Caedan Wallace also in the mix there. At this point, the only real certainty seems to be that veteran bedrock David Andrews will be the center. One thing that should help manage the potential shuffling is Rhamondre Stevenson’s presence. The tailback showed up a little heavy last year, and it cost him. He looks leaner and quicker this year, and, with a new contract signed, has emerged as a confident leader for Jerod Mayo’s new program.”
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Post by texs31 on Aug 20, 2024 8:08:02 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 20, 2024 8:50:08 GMT -5
You guys have been going at it for a while, but are teams even offering that for Jones? He was alright last season, but I’m not sure teams are salivating over him at this point in the year. Maybe move him by deadline in case he’s good and some contender has an injury. If a contender needs a CB with little cap space, yeah I don't see why they wouldn't. You'll find out soon around cut down day. Wolf did say he expects to be active. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 20, 2024 8:59:24 GMT -5
Do we really believe this is a TRUE competition though? If this was a team expected to contend? Sure. If we were talking about 2 candidates whose future role and timeline were comparable. Probably. But the comparison has less to do with Jacoby vs Drake than it does Drake sitting vs Drake playing. Is he showing enough of what they want to see in this stage of his development to move him on to the next stage? Will he progress better in a helmet or a baseball cap? Of course, at some point, you'll want him in with the 1s if he really has a chance (got to see at least SOME work with projected starters on the OL today, I read). The other thing to consider in this "competition" is the impact of the Krafts wanting their "shiny new toy" out there. Would it surprise any of us to learn that was a component? That’s the problem. The issue isn’t whether Drake should or shouldn’t start. But it feels like Mayo and the team were totally unprepared for the fact that Maye might actually be better than (or simply in the same ballpark as) Jacoby by the time September rolls around. If you drafted him 3rd overall you had to know there was a chance he’d be the best quarterback on the roster. And yet you operated with rep allocation and worked the media like this kid was some sort of project who was super raw. It just feels indecisive and unprepared. I think it's the opposite, like I said when Mayo announced Maye would get a chance to start. They know in a true open competition Maye could do more things and make it so close, like Jones versus Newton that everyone would be calling for Maye to start. Zero issues with that, but Mayo isn't saying that to the media. Early on maybe it's the politically correct thing to do, Boston Media would go crazy if the #3 pick didn't have a chance to earn a starting gig. Zero reasons now not to name Brissett starter. Mayo is really struggling with this, his recent comments are shocking given zero first team reps for Maye. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 20, 2024 9:22:23 GMT -5
So now our coaches know nothing? Greatest defensive coach ever claimed Wilson and the new guys are starting him and giving him first team reps. That must mean absolutely nothing because RJP didn't pay attention. It wasn't a 5th, as I explained and first it's a Madden trade, now it's nothing when Judon was traded for a 3rd. Still can't wrap my head around people talking about Culture after trading our best player right before the season starts when you have tons of cap space. That says one thing to the players, we are rebuilding. So if you want to rebuild, do it and play the young guys. If trading Judon made sense because he wasn't going to be part of the Future, the same applies to Jones. Saying otherwise makes zero sense, he's no where near the level Judon was. For clarity: The madden trade comment wasn’t about the return, it was about stock piling assets for future seasons by dumping “everything possible” (hyperbole). It wasn’t meant to be a dig at you; it was meant to illustrate a point that there are other factors at play. You said 5th rd value; I didn’t think I had to continue to fully breakdown your proposal so I shorthanded it. I never said he may not turn out to be really good nor did I say he should be cut. I just pointed out, he hasn’t proven anything of significance in the league yet. He’s still young and has 3 years experience now. Sure a leap could be forthcoming. I specifically said 2 things about the Judon trade: 1. I said it was a remove a distraction trade. They would have kept him on his current contract; it was seemingly their preference to do so. He was causing a distraction so they dealt him when they were able to get their asking price. 2. I also said they NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL moving forward. It’s one thing to make ONE trade, like they did, if a guy IS unhappy about their contract, but to start dumping veterans who are being good teammates, are good players and who are happy with their contracts is an entirely different thing. Would you agree with that? I feel the Patriots created the Judon mess my giving everyone else new deals, especially a certain DT who also showed up to camp bitching. Judon says they wouldn't even sit down and talk with him, who does that with best player on your team? People wanted to see him healthy, we did, per reports he was his usual disruptive self during practices. We don't even know what he wanted because they never had those conversations, that's not good for team culture. Did you see him in preseason coaching Ximes? He's always trying to recruit guys. I mentioned Jones because of age and because CB might be deepest position on the team. So keep the younger players and get more draft capital. He's the only CB needing maintenance days in camp because of his age and past injury issues. Sure I agree you need veterans, our defense is filled with them and Gonzales while young might be the teams best player. He already has star WR talking about him. None of this is what I would have done. I would have paid Judon, I would have added a veteran LT, heck I would have made a run a Connor Williams. I would have done everything I could to make this team better, they aren't doing that and trading Judon changes things. Especially with Barmore maybe out for the year. I don't see how the defense can now be great. So I've moved onto what's better for future seasons. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 20, 2024 11:00:04 GMT -5
For clarity: The madden trade comment wasn’t about the return, it was about stock piling assets for future seasons by dumping “everything possible” (hyperbole). It wasn’t meant to be a dig at you; it was meant to illustrate a point that there are other factors at play. You said 5th rd value; I didn’t think I had to continue to fully breakdown your proposal so I shorthanded it. I never said he may not turn out to be really good nor did I say he should be cut. I just pointed out, he hasn’t proven anything of significance in the league yet. He’s still young and has 3 years experience now. Sure a leap could be forthcoming. I specifically said 2 things about the Judon trade: 1. I said it was a remove a distraction trade. They would have kept him on his current contract; it was seemingly their preference to do so. He was causing a distraction so they dealt him when they were able to get their asking price. 2. I also said they NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL moving forward. It’s one thing to make ONE trade, like they did, if a guy IS unhappy about their contract, but to start dumping veterans who are being good teammates, are good players and who are happy with their contracts is an entirely different thing. Would you agree with that? I feel the Patriots created the Judon mess my giving everyone else new deals, especially a certain DT who also showed up to camp bitching. Judon says they wouldn't even sit down and talk with him, who does that with best player on your team? People wanted to see him healthy, we did, per reports he was his usual disruptive self during practices. We don't even know what he wanted because they never had those conversations, that's not good for team culture. Did you see him in preseason coaching Ximes? He's always trying to recruit guys. I mentioned Jones because of age and because CB might be deepest position on the team. So keep the younger players and get more draft capital. He's the only CB needing maintenance days in camp because of his age and past injury issues. Sure I agree you need veterans, our defense is filled with them and Gonzales while young might be the teams best player. He already has star WR talking about him. None of this is what I would have done. I would have paid Judon, I would have added a veteran LT, heck I would have made a run a Connor Williams. I would have done everything I could to make this team better, they aren't doing that and trading Judon changes things. Especially with Barmore maybe out for the year. I don't see how the defense can now be great. So I've moved onto what's better for future seasons. All fair; but I think it’s a balancing act. The defense can still be excellent. It was the best defense in the league the last 8 weeks last year without Judon and Gonzalez. Still no Judon, add Gonzalez and subtract Barmore. Why can’t it still be great? Get internal improvements from guys like White and others. I’m not sold on it, I’m extremely concerned about coaching there. Not because of the guys there but because of who we lost so it unproven. We also saw how hard it is to attract free agents or even trade targets when you are really bad. Intentionally tanking, will just make that worse. I’m not ready to cast blame on the Judon situation. I certainly think your take could be right. However, I’m not going to pretend to know the situation. Teams usually know what a player wants, there don’t need to be formal offers or proposals to know these things. And yes, Judon was a great leader and mentor, but also a distraction. Oddly, it’s worse when those guys become issues, because he’s a well respected guy that young guys are going to rally around. Remember they gave him a big raise last year because he was “underpaid”, then he didn’t play. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 20, 2024 11:47:55 GMT -5
You guys have been going at it for a while, but are teams even offering that for Jones? He was alright last season, but I’m not sure teams are salivating over him at this point in the year. Maybe move him by deadline in case he’s good and some contender has an injury. If a contender needs a CB with little cap space, yeah I don't see why they wouldn't. You'll find out soon around cut down day. Wolf did say he expects to be active. If AT THIS POINT in the year, before injuries hit, any contender feels compelled to trade really decent value for Jones, then they're simply not contenders. He's not that guy. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 20, 2024 12:10:05 GMT -5
If a contender needs a CB with little cap space, yeah I don't see why they wouldn't. You'll find out soon around cut down day. Wolf did say he expects to be active. If AT THIS POINT in the year, before injuries hit, any contender feels compelled to trade really decent value for Jones, then they're simply not contenders. He's not that guy. Is there ever a before injuries hit period in the NFL? We are already experiencing injuries (Barmore). |
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 20, 2024 12:37:29 GMT -5
If AT THIS POINT in the year, before injuries hit, any contender feels compelled to trade really decent value for Jones, then they're simply not contenders. He's not that guy. Is there ever a before injuries hit period in the NFL? We are already experiencing injuries (Barmore). You're right, but I don't mean ZERO injuries, it's just that guys are going to go down like flies in the near future and then you can get better value for someone like Jones while keeping him around longer. |
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Post by rasimon on Aug 20, 2024 19:51:30 GMT -5
Pats sign Matt Landers (WR) He is an interesting pickup. 2023 UDFA. I liked him as a late day three or UDFA. He spent three years at Georgia where he did next to nothing. One year Toledo where he was fairly good and one year at Arkansas where he wasn't quite as good. So why is he an interesting pickup? He's 6'4 3/8 and 200 lbs and ran a 4.37 at the combine. Is he an upgrade on Tyquan Thornton? Possibly. An upgrade on Parker? Probably not. But worth a look. www.mockdraftable.com/player/matt-landerswww.pff.com/nfl/players/matt-landers/61271/draft-profile |
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Post by texs31 on Aug 21, 2024 6:33:03 GMT -5
Speaking of Thornton . . . man all the beat guys are saying he's the likely STARTING X. WHEN he's in there, he certainly seems to be playing with that group but . . . yikes.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 21, 2024 9:00:31 GMT -5
IF that remains true, then here's where we seem to be at (don't get mad at me, this is just pulling from those guys - with Kyed being the latest):
PUP - Bourne
LOCKS - Douglas, Polk, Thornton and Baker (3 guys who seem to be emerging as starters and a draft pick I can't see getting cut)
BUBBLE - Osborne, Boutte and Reagor
Actually, most are saying Osborne is probably a lock as well given what he's been doing on the field as well as his leadership in the locker room.
So what happens next is likely guided by:
- How many WRs will they keep
- Specific skill set (positional versatility w/i the WR Room; special teams, etc)
- Who is most likely to get through to the Practice squad (Maybe??)
All of these guys admit Boutte has done enough to earn a spot but question whether his redundancy to other WRs might factor.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 21, 2024 16:52:15 GMT -5
IF that remains true, then here's where we seem to be at (don't get mad at me, this is just pulling from those guys - with Kyed being the latest): PUP - Bourne LOCKS - Douglas, Polk, Thornton and Baker (3 guys who seem to be emerging as starters and a draft pick I can't see getting cut) BUBBLE - Osborne, Boutte and Reagor Actually, most are saying Osborne is probably a lock as well given what he's been doing on the field as well as his leadership in the locker room. So what happens next is likely guided by: - How many WRs will they keep - Specific skill set (positional versatility w/i the WR Room; special teams, etc) - Who is most likely to get through to the Practice squad (Maybe??) All of these guys admit Boutte has done enough to earn a spot but question whether his redundancy to other WRs might factor. Baring injury, I don’t see Boutte making the team. This isn’t me saying I wouldn’t keep him, it’s me observing and saying I don’t think it’s happening. |
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