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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 4, 2024 17:51:49 GMT -5
If we were to acquire Justin Turner from Blue Jays this is how the line could be. 1 LF Duran LHH, 2 SS Hamilton LHH, 3 RF O’Neil RHH , 4 3B Devers LHH 5 DH Turner RHH, 6 1B Casas LHH, 7 C Wong RHH, 8 2B Grissom RHH ,9 CF Cedena RHH. It’s a deep line up filled with speed, power, and guys who can get on base. This is a line up to give us the edge in the playoffs. Also bringing in Mata & Hendricks. Still need to add a SP who can compliment Houck at the top of the rotation. Evoldi shouldn’t cost too much in money and prospects which we have a glut of. Turner has worse rest-of-season projections than both Refsnyder and Yoshida by both Steamer and Zips. He's also 39 and broke down toward the end of last season.
I know it would be nice to think the Red Sox could make themselves better by adding a position player at the trade deadline but it just isn't so.
The Jays are 9 games under .500 and 8.5 GB the third WC. If they decide to blow it up, Justin Turner is not the RHH DH/1B that I'd want to acquire from them to improve the Sox...
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Post by strike23 on Jul 4, 2024 18:31:50 GMT -5
Texas is 8.5 out of the WC and 3rd in their division and on a pretty brutal run, if they don't gain ground in their upcoming Houston series they've almost got to sell which should help the pitching market. If Crochet isn't prohibitively expensive he's my 1st pick but Eovaldi or Scherzer would be great too
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Jul 4, 2024 18:51:21 GMT -5
Texas is 8.5 out of the WC and 3rd in their division and on a pretty brutal run, if they don't gain ground in their upcoming Houston series they've almost got to sell which should help the pitching market. If Crochet isn't prohibitively expensive he's my 1st pick but Eovaldi or Scherzer would be great too According to Spotrac, Max Scherzer’s salary (after some funds from Steve Cohen last year) is about 12 mil. He turns 40 two days before the trade deadline. In his first three starts so far this season since coming back from injury, he’s been… fine. I guess it’s still early to make judgements on him since he did just get back. Scherzer does however have a full no-trade clause - so he decides where he wants to go, if it all.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 4, 2024 19:56:22 GMT -5
I would much rather trade for eovaldi than crochet. If the sox are in go for it mode this season eovaldi makes more sense as Crochet more than likely doesn't have many starts left in the chamber this year. Eovaldi should cost way less to trade for. Trade a meager package for eovaldi this year and then go sign an SP or two in FA vs having to more than likely deal one of the big 3 prospects for Crochet.
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Post by wkdbigsoxfan on Jul 4, 2024 20:46:13 GMT -5
Playoff odds at 42%. What does 2 of Meidroth, Yorke, Jordan, Paulino, Lugo get you? That’s the group I’m looking to deal from. Low minors guys are not getting traded as often as they used to and I’m looking to add pitching depth, not deal from it.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 4, 2024 20:53:12 GMT -5
Playoff odds at 42%. What does 2 of Meidroth, Yorke, Jordan, Paulino, Lugo get you? That’s the group I’m looking to deal from. Low minors guys are not getting traded as often as they used to and I’m looking to add pitching depth, not deal from it. I feel like two of that group should be a competitive offer for just about any pitcher likely to be on the market other than crochet. I don't know that I'd give up two of them for a flaherty but definitely one of them plus other lower guys.
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Post by nonothing on Jul 4, 2024 20:59:39 GMT -5
I think the right deal is probably something like Eovaldi for Mata (or a lower level solid upside pitcher) and Cespedes. If we are in the right spot, we could do a deal like that and be fine. Anyone know if Story could make it back by playoffs? I thought Sept was possible originally but haven't heard any update. If I thought that was possible, I probably would roll dice without SS trade and just play who we have. Might do that anyway. I’m enjoying this year’s team but certainly not enough to give up Cespedes. Cespedes is either going to become Jose Ramirez or he will be another offensive 2nd baseman, of whom we have a bunch. How many 2nd baseman can a team roster? Eovaldi would give us a starter this year and next who fits in this org like a glove. I would give up a prospect with helium who hasn't even hit A ball, who is likely a limited defender. Maybe he is another Jose Ramirez. More likely -- he isn't. But I would take a reasonable cost starter who has proven to be able to pitchers for him.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jul 4, 2024 21:00:06 GMT -5
Playoff odds at 42%. What does 2 of Meidroth, Yorke, Jordan, Paulino, Lugo get you? That’s the group I’m looking to deal from. Low minors guys are not getting traded as often as they used to and I’m looking to add pitching depth, not deal from it. I think this is a great post because those are the chips for Boston. If that’s too little so be it, but I wouldn’t budge even for the rule 5.
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Post by nonothing on Jul 4, 2024 21:02:50 GMT -5
I would much rather trade for eovaldi than crochet. If the sox are in go for it mode this season eovaldi makes more sense as Crochet more than likely doesn't have many starts left in the chamber this year. Eovaldi should cost way less to trade for. Trade a meager package for eovaldi this year and then go sign an SP or two in FA vs having to more than likely deal one of the big 3 prospects for Crochet. Do you believe Eovaldi's option won't vest? I thought he was over 170IP with playoffs last yr. Don't playoff innings count toward the 300IP he needs to vest the 2025 option?
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Jul 4, 2024 21:08:36 GMT -5
I would much rather trade for eovaldi than crochet. If the sox are in go for it mode this season eovaldi makes more sense as Crochet more than likely doesn't have many starts left in the chamber this year. Eovaldi should cost way less to trade for. Trade a meager package for eovaldi this year and then go sign an SP or two in FA vs having to more than likely deal one of the big 3 prospects for Crochet. Do you believe Eovaldi's option won't vest? I thought he was over 170IP with playoffs last yr. Don't playoff innings count toward the 300IP he needs to vest the 2025 option? Pretty sure it’s regular season but it kinda doesn’t matter because it’s a player option that would vest - and if he’s healthy and good he’s going to turn down 1 year 20 mil to get a multi-year deal. The only way he wouldn’t opt out is if he weren’t healthy - but if that’s the case he likely doesn’t reach that innings number to begin with
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 4, 2024 21:19:49 GMT -5
I’m enjoying this year’s team but certainly not enough to give up Cespedes. Cespedes is either going to become Jose Ramirez or he will be another offensive 2nd baseman, of whom we have a bunch. How many 2nd baseman can a team roster? Eovaldi would give us a starter this year and next who fits in this org like a glove. I would give up a prospect with helium who hasn't even hit A ball, who is likely a limited defender. Maybe he is another Jose Ramirez. More likely -- he isn't. But I would take a reasonable cost starter who has proven to be able to pitchers for him. How many offensive 2b on the roster? As many as it takes to find one that takes at the major league level which hasn't happened yet. At this point I have no idea who the 2b of Red Sox future is. I felt and still feel it'll be Grissom, but I cant ignore what Campbell is doing but he's more likely to be a 2b with the Sox than OF given the presence of Duran, Rafaela, and Anthony as the likely outfield of the future rendering Abreu down the road as trade bait, and Valdez and Yorke as likely trade bait. Or at least what I think. Breslow will have to sort out the 2b talent and figure out who he thinks is the 2b of the near future. Dombrowski was good at sorting out the talent and making the call as to whi was the keeper and who was more expendable. Breslow will have that test soon enough. I think Cespedes would be more valuable down the road as a 3b who could displace Devers to DH some day, but reading the scouting report on him gives me some pause. He might be more of a DH than Devers? I dont know what he is but Breslow will have to know and make the right judgment on him.
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Jul 4, 2024 21:24:32 GMT -5
Playoff odds at 42%. What does 2 of Meidroth, Yorke, Jordan, Paulino, Lugo get you? That’s the group I’m looking to deal from. Low minors guys are not getting traded as often as they used to and I’m looking to add pitching depth, not deal from it. I feel like two of that group should be a competitive offer for just about any pitcher likely to be on the market other than crochet. I don't know that I'd give up two of them for a flaherty but definitely one of them plus other lower guys. Incandenza had posted this previously but this was a summary of prospects traded last deadline: blogs.fangraphs.com/ranking-the-prospects-traded-during-the-2023-deadline/With the caveat that Fangraphs’ rankings can be, uh, unique… the best two prospects for rental starters they had as a 50 grade guy as part of the Giolito deal to the Angels (which also included Reynaldo Lopez to Angels and other things to Chicago) and a 50 grade guy to St Louis for Montgomery (which also included Chris Stratton to Texas and other things to the Cardinals.) A 45 went out for Lance Lynn in a deal that also included Joe Kelly. I’d like to think a combo of those guys (especially Yorke with how he’s played since he got to AAA) isn’t an insulting offer for a rental starter… but the issue might be is how that offer compares to a team that is truly desperate (hello AJ Preller).
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 4, 2024 21:25:10 GMT -5
I’m enjoying this year’s team but certainly not enough to give up Cespedes. Cespedes is either going to become Jose Ramirez or he will be another offensive 2nd baseman, of whom we have a bunch. How many 2nd baseman can a team roster? Eovaldi would give us a starter this year and next who fits in this org like a glove. I would give up a prospect with helium who hasn't even hit A ball, who is likely a limited defender. Maybe he is another Jose Ramirez. More likely -- he isn't. But I would take a reasonable cost starter who has proven to be able to pitchers for him. That's quite a range you're giving Cespedes. He could either be one of the best players in the league or just a guy.
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Post by nonothing on Jul 4, 2024 21:28:44 GMT -5
Cespedes is either going to become Jose Ramirez or he will be another offensive 2nd baseman, of whom we have a bunch. How many 2nd baseman can a team roster? Eovaldi would give us a starter this year and next who fits in this org like a glove. I would give up a prospect with helium who hasn't even hit A ball, who is likely a limited defender. Maybe he is another Jose Ramirez. More likely -- he isn't. But I would take a reasonable cost starter who has proven to be able to pitchers for him. How many offensive 2b on the roster? As many as it takes to find one that takes at the major league level which hasn't happened yet. At this point I have no idea who the 2b of Red Sox future is. I felt and still feel it'll be Grissom, but I cant ignore what Campbell is doing but he's more likely to be a 2b with the Sox than OF given the presence of Duran, Rafaela, and Anthony as the likely outfield of the future rendering Abreu down the road as trade bait, and Valdez and Yorke as likely trade bait. Or at least what I think. Breslow will have to sort out the 2b talent and figure out who he thinks is the 2b of the near future. Dombrowski was good at sorting out the talent and making the call as to whi was the keeper and who was more expendable. Breslow will have that test soon enough. I think Cespedes would be more valuable down the road as a 3b who could displace Devers to DH some day, but reading the scouting report on him gives me some pause. He might be more of a DH than Devers? I dont know what he is but Breslow will have to know and make the right judgment on him. If he gets moved, I think we will know. But generally agree with your take here. I think one of the guys ahead of Cespy at 2B is likely to claim it before he gets to the bigs. Whether it is Grissom, Yorke, Campbell or someone else, there are a lot of dudes for that spot. So unless Cespy is the second coming of Jose Ramirez (can play 3B), I doubt he will displace somebody in front of him who is still young that fields better and has established himself offensively over the next 2-3 yrs. Just my guess.
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Post by nonothing on Jul 4, 2024 21:35:57 GMT -5
Cespedes is either going to become Jose Ramirez or he will be another offensive 2nd baseman, of whom we have a bunch. How many 2nd baseman can a team roster? Eovaldi would give us a starter this year and next who fits in this org like a glove. I would give up a prospect with helium who hasn't even hit A ball, who is likely a limited defender. Maybe he is another Jose Ramirez. More likely -- he isn't. But I would take a reasonable cost starter who has proven to be able to pitchers for him. That's quite a range you're giving Cespedes. He could either be one of the best players in the league or just a guy. I think there is a big range of outcomes, but more likely he turns into something closer to Valdez than Ramirez, so I would cash in on his current helium. If the option that vests is a player option, then I would only trade Cespedes for Eovaldi if Eovaldi indicated he would stay for 2025 if we guarantee the option at the time of the trade.
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Post by bentossaurus on Jul 4, 2024 21:41:08 GMT -5
They'll need pitching. In my mind, we need to offload Yoshida, and I'd be willing to offload prospects to do it. The Angels need to rebuild their system, and the Red Sox have prospects to burn. - Yoshida, Blaze, and Cespedes/Campbell to LAA for Tyler Anderson; retain up to 25% of Yoshida's salary if necessary - Promote Yorke and move Grissom to DH Who says no? I think the Red Sox say no pretty quickly to that plan. First off, there’s no rotation spot for Tyler Anderson and I certainly hope they aim higher than that for any SP acquisition now or in the offseason. Also, the Red Sox aren’t in a payroll crunch at all, so why would they send a bunch of excess value to lose Yoshida’s salary. I’d way rather they cut him and paid everything than attached a top prospect. Lastly, I don’t get why you would replace Yoshida at DH with Grissom when Yoshida is a better hitter right now. At least wait to see if Grissom can start hitting at all before we hand him a starting role. Yeah, I'm all for offloading Yoshida, but I don't think it's doable unless it's for an equally bad contract who can perhaps be a better fit, like Snell.
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Post by bentossaurus on Jul 4, 2024 21:41:44 GMT -5
I’m enjoying this year’s team but certainly not enough to give up Cespedes. Cespedes is either going to become Jose Ramirez or he will be another offensive 2nd baseman, of whom we have a bunch. How many 2nd baseman can a team roster? Eovaldi would give us a starter this year and next who fits in this org like a glove. I would give up a prospect with helium who hasn't even hit A ball, who is likely a limited defender. Maybe he is another Jose Ramirez. More likely -- he isn't. But I would take a reasonable cost starter who has proven to be able to pitchers for him. Is that supposed to be bad?
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 4, 2024 21:47:23 GMT -5
That's quite a range you're giving Cespedes. He could either be one of the best players in the league or just a guy. I think there is a big range of outcomes, but more likely he turns into something closer to Valdez than Ramirez, so I would cash in on his current helium. If the option that vests is a player option, then I would only trade Cespedes for Eovaldi if Eovaldi indicated he would stay for 2025 if we guarantee the option at the time of the trade. Eovaldi isn’t guaranteeing that option. If he pitches enough innings to get it he’s going to make more money than that in FA. He’s not just going to do the Red Sox a huge favor
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Post by nonothing on Jul 4, 2024 22:03:30 GMT -5
I think there is a big range of outcomes, but more likely he turns into something closer to Valdez than Ramirez, so I would cash in on his current helium. If the option that vests is a player option, then I would only trade Cespedes for Eovaldi if Eovaldi indicated he would stay for 2025 if we guarantee the option at the time of the trade. Eovaldi isn’t guaranteeing that option. If he pitches enough innings to get it he’s going to make more money than that in FA. He’s not just going to do the Red Sox a huge favor Guaranteeing it mid-yr is not a favor to either side. It is guaranteeing his highest ever salary for next year halfway through the year prior, while he gets a chance to pitch a team he loved playing for into the playoffs. Maybe you think he is going to get 3 yrs or more. I think at his age, 2yrs is what he would get. Could he get $45 over 2? Maybe. But he could also get hurt over the next 3 months and get nothing. Eovaldi has been injured in the past (which tends to bring some appropriate risk aversion into a player's decision-making), and he seems to care about where he pitches, so I am not sure you are right. Maybe you are, but I don't think it is that obvious.
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Post by nonothing on Jul 5, 2024 7:31:52 GMT -5
Cespedes is either going to become Jose Ramirez or he will be another offensive 2nd baseman, of whom we have a bunch. How many 2nd baseman can a team roster? Eovaldi would give us a starter this year and next who fits in this org like a glove. I would give up a prospect with helium who hasn't even hit A ball, who is likely a limited defender. Maybe he is another Jose Ramirez. More likely -- he isn't. But I would take a reasonable cost starter who has proven to be able to pitchers for him. Is that supposed to be bad? The Ramirez comp I view as a potential HOF comp. A not great defending 2B who hits 15-20HR, but not really a SB threat -- I see that as tradeable. I think we have 5+ guys who could turn into that, with others more athletic. So unless he can hit 25+ HR each year minimum, I see little to need to keep so badly for a guy pre-A-ball. He ranks above Yorke/Valdez/Campbell (who is athletic enough for CF)/Crawford (who could play 3B)/Zanetello (can play SS) and Meidroth/Sogard (in AAA already with likely more defnesive versatility). Grissom ranked higher for the Braves as a prospect. But what would be the practical difference that you are sure Cespedes is worth so much more than all those guys? So yes -- I think to be worth where he is ranked, Cespedes needs to be a Jose Ramirez type. Otherwise, he is over-ranked, so trading him would be smart. Put another way, when the big 3 graduate, if he is in our top 3, that to me would signify a weak system, not a strong system. I think we have better players ranked below him because his top end outcome is super high. I would suspect his probability of achieving at least everyday MLB player status is lower however. I could be dead wrong of course, and I am not taking shots at the ranking system or his ceiling. These things are guesses so early in development. I just bet on a "meh" player or a miss vs all star typically with this profile. Before Betts gets brought up -- the athleticism to me is the difference. With high athleticism, positive outcomes become more probable. Betts was always a high end athlete, if short-ish. Cespedes is compact/strong/not exceptionally athletic like Betts from what little I have seen and pics of him + write-ups describing same.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 5, 2024 7:44:48 GMT -5
Eovaldi isn’t guaranteeing that option. If he pitches enough innings to get it he’s going to make more money than that in FA. He’s not just going to do the Red Sox a huge favor Guaranteeing it mid-yr is not a favor to either side. It is guaranteeing his highest ever salary for next year halfway through the year prior, while he gets a chance to pitch a team he loved playing for into the playoffs. Maybe you think he is going to get 3 yrs or more. I think at his age, 2yrs is what he would get. Could he get $45 over 2? Maybe. But he could also get hurt over the next 3 months and get nothing. Eovaldi has been injured in the past (which tends to bring some appropriate risk aversion into a player's decision-making), and he seems to care about where he pitches, so I am not sure you are right. Maybe you are, but I don't think it is that obvious. If he’s a free agent he gets to choose where he pitches. You’re right it depends on his risk tolerance around the belief that he will not have a devastating injury this year. Personally, I think Eovaldi will get against that and then yeah maybe he’s looking at 2/40ish with another vesting option. It’s the latter year that’s more important for him as he ages.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 5, 2024 7:49:47 GMT -5
Is that supposed to be bad? The Ramirez comp I view as a potential HOF comp. A not great defending 2B who hits 15-20HR, but not really a SB threat -- I see that as tradeable. I think we have 5+ guys who could turn into that, with others more athletic. So unless he can hit 25+ HR each year minimum, I see little to need to keep so badly for a guy pre-A-ball. He ranks above Yorke/Valdez/Campbell (who is athletic enough for CF)/Crawford (who could play 3B)/Zanetello (can play SS) and Meidroth/Sogard (in AAA already with likely more defnesive versatility). Grissom ranked higher for the Braves as a prospect. But what would be the practical difference that you are sure Cespedes is worth so much more than all those guys? So yes -- I think to be worth where he is ranked, Cespedes needs to be a Jose Ramirez type. Otherwise, he is over-ranked, so trading him would be smart. Put another way, when the big 3 graduate, if he is in our top 3, that to me would signify a weak system, not a strong system. I think we have better players ranked below him because his top end outcome is super high. I would suspect his probability of achieving at least everyday MLB player status is lower however. I could be dead wrong of course, and I am not taking shots at the ranking system or his ceiling. These things are guesses so early in development. I just bet on a "meh" player or a miss vs all star typically with this profile. Before Betts gets brought up -- the athleticism to me is the difference. With high athleticism, positive outcomes become more probable. Betts was always a high end athlete, if short-ish. Cespedes is compact/strong/not exceptionally athletic like Betts from what little I have seen and pics of him + write-ups describing same. To be worth being ranked 7th in the system Cespedes needs to be a hall of fame level player? Nobody in the org projects as a hall of fame level player (except maybe Kenley but relievers are weird) so that feels like a high bar
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 5, 2024 7:54:10 GMT -5
If Cespedes were a "Jose Ramirez type" he'd be ranked first in baseball. Maybe second.
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Post by crossedsabres8 on Jul 5, 2024 9:24:42 GMT -5
I do wonder a bit about guys like Cespedes who are already physically mature and how that helps them in the low minors early in their career. But then when they reach the upper minors may not be that big of an advantage as other guys fill out their bodies, catching up essentially.
That said, these days it's hard to trade low minors players because they're just not valued that highly until they prove it in AA considering how bad the low minors are now.
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Post by nonothing on Jul 5, 2024 9:33:28 GMT -5
If Cespedes were a "Jose Ramirez type" he'd be ranked first in baseball. Maybe second. Jose Ramirez (then 2B/SS) was ranked 9th for CLE (not MLB overall) in 2013 and 8th for CLE (not MLB overall) in 2014. Oh, and he made his debut in 2013. He wasn't starting A-ball.
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