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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 18, 2024 18:50:00 GMT -5
For the trade Marcelo guys. Just want to remind everyone that there was a lot of talk in 2013&14 that Xander couldn’t play short. Keep Top 4.
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Post by kwodes on Jul 18, 2024 19:06:53 GMT -5
For the trade Marcelo guys. Just want to remind everyone that there was a lot of talk in 2013&14 that Xander couldn’t play short. Keep Top 4. Agreed, as awesome as this team is, I don't believe this is the year to go "all in". Get whatever reinforcements you can for guys outside of the top 7 (Braden included) and pitchers. They have enough to get help by shopping with that list. Even if it's not the Crochets and controllable studs.
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Post by cmax on Jul 18, 2024 19:12:28 GMT -5
Re: kwodes "Agreed, as awesome as this team is. I don't believe this is the year to go "all in". Get whatever reinforcements you can for guys outside of the top 7 (Braden included) and pitchers. They have enough to get help by shopping with that list. Even if it's not the Crochets and controllable studs."
I generally agree with this but could live with them trading Bleis or Cespedes, or potentially any of the others, if the right deal lines up. Hard to be completely closed off to options before engaging the market and knowing what is possible.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 18, 2024 19:24:08 GMT -5
In a deal for a guy like crochet I'd be okay with trading anyone in the farm other than the big 3. I just don't think the chisox would accept a deal that didn't include one of them.
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asm18
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Posts: 2,497
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Post by asm18 on Jul 18, 2024 19:35:43 GMT -5
It’s kind of like the Lou Gorman/Willie McGee where will he play situation but with regard to Mason Miller, he has been off the charts elite this year and deserves to close. He would not be the closer on this team. You can’t ask Jansen to go pitch the 8th, maybe Hendricks will when he returns but who knows. I could get behind it if you acquire Miller and trade Jansen to the Dodgers. You are going to have to give an “A” prospect to get Miller and you might get the Dodgers to overpay with a “B+” prospect. The time to do it would be right now as the Dodgers closers had an unbelievable meltdown weekend in Detroit last Friday-Sunday. Not that I would expect Kenley (half a season left) and Mason Miller (like 5+ years of control) to have very similar value, but couldn’t the Dodgers just cut out the middle-man in this situation and go get Mason Miller themselves instead of settling for Kenley? I honestly don’t know what a fair deal for Miller would be - he’s so ridiculously ludicrously talented and has so much team control left - but being a reliever ultimately caps his value at some point. Like take a look at this comparison: Mason Miller - 2.27 ERA, 39.1 innings, 70 K’s Kenley Jansen - 2.16 ERA, 33.1 innings, 38 K’s Functionally… what’s the difference? To be clear, I’d obviously rather have the alien who throws 102 mph and strikes out half the batters he faces. But I don’t know that the difference is of such a margin that you’re sending a haul over to Oakland for it?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 18, 2024 19:38:41 GMT -5
I just don't see the need to trade from the top 4. I want to see what becomes of Campbell. Much prefer to see that happen with the Red Sox, because I think he could be a damn good player, potentially better than most of the right handed bats out there the Sox would be looking to acquire. I believe Mayer is going to be SS for the second half of the decade and be above average/all-star caliber. Likewise for Teel.
I believe Anthony and Montgomery both have star written all over them.
There's really nobody out there that makes me want to give those guys up. Any other guys in the farm I'd be open to moving in the right deal.
The Sox are on the right path and eventually they'll have to trade to make themselves better but they need to keep their top tier prospects which includes Campbell in my opinion as he has gotten my attention this year. The irony was I was pissed that they didn't trade Xander and screwed themselves out of a 2nd round compensation pick and had to settle for just a 4th rounder compensation pick and it winds up being this guy who is tearing through the minor leagues and offers defensive versatility and a big right handed bat that they truly need in the near future.
Plus this team has plenty of players that can entice other teams. Sure you won't get the next Pedro or Trout in a trade unless you trade from the top, but those guys really aren't out there and for the way they're set up, thin out the surplus a bit and get the incremental necessary upgrades that are needed. That they can do without harming their farm system or their future. They're in a good position. They can help themselves without being desperate.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 18, 2024 19:39:53 GMT -5
It’s kind of like the Lou Gorman/Willie McGee where will he play situation but with regard to Mason Miller, he has been off the charts elite this year and deserves to close. He would not be the closer on this team. You can’t ask Jansen to go pitch the 8th, maybe Hendricks will when he returns but who knows. I could get behind it if you acquire Miller and trade Jansen to the Dodgers. You are going to have to give an “A” prospect to get Miller and you might get the Dodgers to overpay with a “B+” prospect. The time to do it would be right now as the Dodgers closers had an unbelievable meltdown weekend in Detroit last Friday-Sunday. Not that I would expect Kenley (half a season left) and Mason Miller (like 5+ years of control) to have very similar value, but couldn’t the Dodgers just cut out the middle-man in this situation and go get Mason Miller themselves instead of settling for Kenley? I honestly don’t know what a fair deal for Miller would be - he’s so ridiculously ludicrously talented and has so much team control left - but being a reliever ultimately caps his value at some point. Like take a look at this comparison: Mason Miller - 2.27 ERA, 39.1 innings, 70 K’s Kenley Jansen - 2.16 ERA, 33.1 innings, 38 K’s Functionally… what’s the difference? To be clear, I’d obviously rather have the alien who throws 102 mph and strikes out half the batters he faces. But I don’t know that the difference is of such a margin that you’re sending a haul over to Oakland for it? To answer in my opinion the difference to the record would probably be basically nothing if you swap out Jansen with Miller on this year's team which is why I don't get why some people want to give up a haul for Miller.
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Post by strike23 on Jul 18, 2024 19:42:50 GMT -5
It’s kind of like the Lou Gorman/Willie McGee where will he play situation but with regard to Mason Miller, he has been off the charts elite this year and deserves to close. He would not be the closer on this team. You can’t ask Jansen to go pitch the 8th, maybe Hendricks will when he returns but who knows. I could get behind it if you acquire Miller and trade Jansen to the Dodgers. You are going to have to give an “A” prospect to get Miller and you might get the Dodgers to overpay with a “B+” prospect. The time to do it would be right now as the Dodgers closers had an unbelievable meltdown weekend in Detroit last Friday-Sunday. Not that I would expect Kenley (half a season left) and Mason Miller (like 5+ years of control) to have very similar value, but couldn’t the Dodgers just cut out the middle-man in this situation and go get Mason Miller themselves instead of settling for Kenley? I honestly don’t know what a fair deal for Miller would be - he’s so ridiculously ludicrously talented and has so much team control left - but being a reliever ultimately caps his value at some point. Like take a look at this comparison: Mason Miller - 2.27 ERA, 39.1 innings, 70 K’s Kenley Jansen - 2.16 ERA, 33.1 innings, 38 K’s Functionally… what’s the difference? To be clear, I’d obviously rather have the alien who throws 102 mph and strikes out half the batters he faces. But I don’t know that the difference is of such a margin that you’re sending a haul over to Oakland for it? I think the idea is that he's not replacing Kenley he's replacing the worst arm in the pen. That said I tend to agree that the apparent asking price there is likely to be much higher than its worth. The type of arm we could bring back for Lugo or similar is the type of arm I'd try to add to the pen rather than shipping out bigger prospects. If we're shipping out anyone in the top ~10 it should probably be for a SP
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 18, 2024 21:50:04 GMT -5
My dream scenario is already well documented but my feeling is that we're more likely to see a couple pitchers that come completely out of LF, who the staff see things that they think they can tweak to turn them into studs. That and a RH 1B and slick-fielding UT.
I'll be pretty surprised if any of the top 6 prospects get moved. Or any pitchers in the top 19...
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Post by crossedsabres8 on Jul 18, 2024 22:58:15 GMT -5
I kind of wonder what the trade value of Crochet actually is. I read that the white Sox were asking for Spencer Jones OR a top pitching prospect from the Yankees, which, lol, and I've also ready that it's Juan Soto redux. Where did you read this? Spencer Jones is striking out in 37% of his ABs, not sure why the White Sox would target him as the centerpiece of a deal link
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 18, 2024 23:29:39 GMT -5
Where did you read this? Spencer Jones is striking out in 37% of his ABs, not sure why the White Sox would target him as the centerpiece of a deal linkIt would have to be Jones or Hampton *plus* a bunch more. I don't really trust SNY either way. I do trust Bob Nightengale and there are some good nuggets in the link from the SNY piece (scroll way down in Nightengale's column, after the puff piece on father/son ballplayers). To wit: Skubal not moving; White Sox determined to trade anyone and everyone, including Crochet, Robert, and Fedde; no Vladdy or Bichette; LAD, STL, ATL, SD, BAL, MIL, HOU all listed as seeking starters (BOS an oversight or no buzz?); COL SPs Gomber & Quantrill likely changing addresses; Scherzer staying put.
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Post by patford on Jul 19, 2024 0:59:56 GMT -5
Where did you read this? Spencer Jones is striking out in 37% of his ABs, not sure why the White Sox would target him as the centerpiece of a deal linkWhy would anyone want Spencer Jones?
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 19, 2024 4:53:33 GMT -5
[/quote]Why would anyone want Spencer Jones? [/quote]
Because Aaron Judge is tall.
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Post by vt2carolinaroy on Jul 19, 2024 8:35:21 GMT -5
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one against the go-for-broke trade deadline strategy. Something big is about to be realized in the form of a stacked upper level Minor League system. This time next season, we could be the ones (mostly) decided who our MLB studs are and who is redundant. Furthermore, many of the 2nd level prospects (just the top 3-5) will be not only more expendable, but also closer to MLB ready and fetching higher prices. That is when trading good prospects does not hurt so much. We're a year away.
At the beginning of the year, I was all about trading every guy in his walk year. I was in the same boat last year and would have accepted it in peace as far back as 2022. No, I don't think I'd cut the legs out from under this team like I would have in April/May.
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Post by crossedsabres8 on Jul 19, 2024 9:46:22 GMT -5
It would have to be Jones or Hampton *plus* a bunch more. I don't really trust SNY either way. I do trust Bob Nightengale and there are some good nuggets in the link from the SNY piece (scroll way down in Nightengale's column, after the puff piece on father/son ballplayers). To wit: Skubal not moving; White Sox determined to trade anyone and everyone, including Crochet, Robert, and Fedde; no Vladdy or Bichette; LAD, STL, ATL, SD, BAL, MIL, HOU all listed as seeking starters (BOS an oversight or no buzz?); COL SPs Gomber & Quantrill likely changing addresses; Scherzer staying put. Yeah I don't really buy it either, but I was just pointing out how different outlets have Crochet's value all over the place, which kind of makes sense to me since he's such a volatile potential asset.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 19, 2024 10:55:22 GMT -5
It would have to be Jones or Hampton *plus* a bunch more. I don't really trust SNY either way. I do trust Bob Nightengale and there are some good nuggets in the link from the SNY piece (scroll way down in Nightengale's column, after the puff piece on father/son ballplayers). To wit: Skubal not moving; White Sox determined to trade anyone and everyone, including Crochet, Robert, and Fedde; no Vladdy or Bichette; LAD, STL, ATL, SD, BAL, MIL, HOU all listed as seeking starters (BOS an oversight or no buzz?); COL SPs Gomber & Quantrill likely changing addresses; Scherzer staying put. Quoting myself (quoting Nightengale), I imagine Michael Kopech might come fairly cheap. He's under control through next season and has all 3 options remaining... To the lab!!!
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Post by kwodes on Jul 19, 2024 11:10:21 GMT -5
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jul 19, 2024 11:11:32 GMT -5
Swap one of Teel or Anthony for Cespedes and honestly I’d probably be fine with it.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 19, 2024 11:17:34 GMT -5
I definitely would not want to see them deal both Anthony and Teel for Skubal but yea replace Anthony for Cespedes or maybe even Campbell and I'd probably say eh okay I don't hate it. I don't want to see any of the big 3 dealt but I do have Mayer and Anthony in a category of no absolutely not while Teel I have as a well I'd rather not but push comes to shove for an allstar caliber player ok.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 19, 2024 11:20:21 GMT -5
It would have to be Jones or Hampton *plus* a bunch more. I don't really trust SNY either way. I do trust Bob Nightengale and there are some good nuggets in the link from the SNY piece (scroll way down in Nightengale's column, after the puff piece on father/son ballplayers). To wit: Skubal not moving; White Sox determined to trade anyone and everyone, including Crochet, Robert, and Fedde; no Vladdy or Bichette; LAD, STL, ATL, SD, BAL, MIL, HOU all listed as seeking starters (BOS an oversight or no buzz?); COL SPs Gomber & Quantrill likely changing addresses; Scherzer staying put. Back to Crochet, Steve Adams had an interesting take on the MLBTR podcast (speaking of CHC, not BOS) that addresses the issue of his already-career-high innings load: put him in the bullpen for the stretch run this year, where you can control his workload, and then you have him as your ace for 2025 and '26. I'm re-intrigued. Just for fun, I'll start the bidding at Kristian Campbell and Wikelman Gonzalez... Edit: IIRC, Nightengale called rumors that DET will move Skubal "silly" Edit, part deux: Here's the exact quote: "Enough with the silly Tarik Skubal trade rumors. The Detroit Tigers are not trading him." ( italics his)
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 19, 2024 11:22:31 GMT -5
Just will note that people have expressed big fears around Crochet's health, but Skubal also has not ever pitched over 150 innings in a season. He too would be in uncharted territory by the time the playoffs roll around. Better track record than Crochet no doubt, but he hasn't exactly been a workhorse either.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Jul 19, 2024 11:37:50 GMT -5
The only decent barometer we have for something like a Skubal/Crochet deal is the Castillo trade from a few years ago. The Reds got 3 of the Mariners top 5 prospects for Castillo, including Neolvi Marte who was a top 15 prospect at the time of the trade. Castillo at the time was under control for 1.5 years, so if you are trading for Skubal or Crochet who each have 2.5 years of control and are younger than Castillo was, it's probably taking multiple top 50 prospects just to start.
Crochet is obviously more of a wild card because the track record is much shorter but I can't imagine the White Sox accepting a package worse than the Reds got.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 19, 2024 11:38:29 GMT -5
Just will note that people have expressed big fears around Crochet's health, but Skubal also has not ever pitched over 150 innings in a season. He too would be in uncharted territory by the time the playoffs roll around. Better track record than Crochet no doubt, but he hasn't exactly been a workhorse either. Almost no starters are workhorse enough for me to want to part with the top 4 guys (excluding Montgomery who's not official yet). Starters are important but a guy who gives 140 - 170 innings just isnt as valuable as 200 plus inning guys who simply dont exist anymore. The bullpens impact the game much more now and I certainly would touch the top 4 for any reliever either. Fortunately I think the Sox are in a situation that they have a lot of good tier 2 talent beyond the top 4 and can package 2 or 3 together to get a good pitcher, or at least a sizeable upgrade for the rotation. A Justin Turner like bat shouldn't even cost a second tier talent and perhaps another righty reliever if Martin or Slaten are big question marks, shouldn't be that much either. I think they can truly accomplish what they need to do without putting a big dent in the system and without losing their premier prospects. I see no reason why all of Mayer, Anthony, Teel, and Campbell shouldnt be up at contributing at some point toward the end of next season.
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badfishnbc
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Doing you all a favor and leaving through the gate in right field since 2012.
Posts: 471
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Post by badfishnbc on Jul 19, 2024 11:40:17 GMT -5
Crochet is obviously more of a wild card because the track record is much shorter but I can't imagine the White Sox accepting a package worse than the Reds got. The more I read about Crochet, the more I feel like the White Sox have some insights that lead them to want to move on before he absolutely implodes. No other reason to move on from a guy like that otherwise.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 19, 2024 11:44:30 GMT -5
Crochet is obviously more of a wild card because the track record is much shorter but I can't imagine the White Sox accepting a package worse than the Reds got. The more I read about Crochet, the more I feel like the White Sox have some insights that lead them to want to move on before he absolutely implodes. No other reason to move on from a guy like that otherwise.They're a horrible team, their farm isn't all that strong and his value will probably never be higher than it is right now. Those are all pretty good reasons to move on from Crochet. Trading him now would speed up their rebuild if they pick the correct package of players.
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