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9/2-9/4 Red Sox @ Mets Series Thread
asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,590
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Post by asm18 on Sept 3, 2024 16:36:01 GMT -5
The Sox had 6 guys for five spots, plus Criswell. They also traded for Paxton. It's been a rough couple of weeks though. They've been so bad it's depressing. Six guys isn’t enough, you really need seven IMO. That was also the general feeling here last offseason. People wanted two additional SP - then they traded Sale, replaced him with Giolito, and never added anyone else. Not to belabor the point - this is all well-trod ground. One of the strangest things of all this is their unheralded acquisition in Criswell has actually been good, and yet the team seems petrified to actually use him. Throws a 7 inning shutout gem in Coors Field - gets demoted to the bullpen when they acquire Paxton. Throws 4 perfect innings the other day - gets yanked for 44 year old Rich Hill. The signing seemed like a literal joke over the winter, and yet now the fans might trust him more than the team actually does
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Post by kingstephanos on Sept 3, 2024 16:38:48 GMT -5
Six guys isn’t enough, you really need seven IMO. That was also the general feeling here last offseason. People wanted two additional SP - then they traded Sale, replaced him with Giolito, and never added anyone else. Not to belabor the point - this is all well-trod ground. One of the strangest things of all this is their unheralded acquisition in Criswell has actually been good, and yet the team seems petrified to actually use him. Throws a 7 inning shutout gem in Coors Field - gets demoted to the bullpen when they acquire Paxton. Throws 4 perfect innings the other day - gets yanked for 44 year old Rich Hill. The signing seemed like a literal joke over the winter, and yet now the fans might trust him more than the team actually does Cora controls on-field player management.
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Post by tjb21 on Sept 3, 2024 16:40:26 GMT -5
I was at the game tonight. The Mets played with some verve; the Red Sox didn't. They really seemed to be mailing it in, especially Devers. Next spring training, I want to hear from Cora what he plans to do to make sure his guys are ready to play to their full potential all the way through the end of the season. Devers is literally playing thru shoulder (both shoulders) injury. It would not shock me to see him get surgery this offseason This is not a ridicule on Devers who seems to be a tough dude: He seems to be consistently dealing with some sort of ailment — yet can continue playing through it. It seems to hamper him. Haven’t checked to see his monthly career splits to see if I’m in the realm of reality here.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Sept 3, 2024 16:42:34 GMT -5
If Whitlock and Giolito do not get hurt, then the Red Sox have plenty of starter depth. To say the Red Sox did not sign enough players in the offseason is to have the benefit of hindsight the FO could not have had then. There has been no reason to shop at the high end of the market while the rebuild is not complete. The 2020 - 2024 teams were not good enough to win a WS. It amazes me how easy it is for “fans” to spend other people’s money (we are talking 9 figure contracts). Next year the arrival of 3 top 30 (in all of baseball) prospects will arrive. If the FO does not spend then, you will have a legitimate complaint. They can spend on fresh, new high end pitching instead of guys in year 3 and 4 of a 9 figure contract that are not as good as when Red Sox fans whined for them during a non-competitive period. You're right. How silly of me to want to see the Sox spend money when they have such a paycheck to paycheck existence. Thankfully they have people like you looking out for their billionaire profits as the Red Sox business is struggling so mightily. And you think relying on Whitlock with his injury history was a sound strategy? Injuries are not unique to just our poor Red Sox. Plenty of other teams win despite them. Nobody is bitching about the Sox not winning a World Series since 2018. The complaining is about missing the playoffs 5 years out of 6 during a time where 40% of the league makes the playoffs. It's becoming quite a lengthy rebuild. So you have to wait until that one point every decade where the system is producing to spend money? And I'm not talking about throwing it around like a drunken sailor giving Xander 280 million or something insane like that. I'm talking about the idea that if the system is in a fallow period and you're a big market team you're supposed go 78-84 every year or hope for a big overachiever year like 2021, that you can't spend what it takes to be a top 40% team while you wait for the system to finally develop? I mean, I certainly dont advocate trading their top kids, but it will take them awhile to develop in the majors and hit their stride so you supplement them and give them something stable to come into. The 2007 youth brigade of Pedroia, Kester, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Youks, and Buchholz had Manny and Ortiz and Schilling and other very high priced top notch talent around when they broke in. The Sox were hardly a juggernaut when they signed Manny. Should they have waited until 2007 to get a talent like that? I dont think it needs to be 1 way or the other. If you have a big market team, exploit that advantage, whether its top tier talent or getting as much quality depth as possible. Its simply not acceptable for the Sox to miss the playoffs five years out of six. I am sure every Red Sox fan would love it if they spent like the Dodgers! They never will ! Deal with it !
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 3, 2024 16:45:40 GMT -5
I just don't get it. The Sox have had 1 playoff run in the last 6 years (although the book hasn't been closed for this year, we can only hope). I get taken aback at the leeway given by some folks in this regard. This rebuild has taken too long. It has been unnessarily prolonged by the slow deconstruction of the 2018 squad and an aversion to signing top free agents and / or the FA signings we made have underpeformed. Sorry to knock Story, but it has been a bad outcome on resource management thus far. Nobody expects to win WS every year, or 1 every 5 or so years, which he have been unbelievably lucky to have happened. But that doesn't mean you cant make the playoffs every every year, or other year....something more than 1 every 6 years for a franchise this rich and with a voracious fan base appetite for winning. Just relying on prospects and or lower level signings just is not gonna do it. It can happen, but the odds are long. There is too much talent spread across the league. More has to be done in the FA market to build / keep a playoff level club. This is exactly what I was afraid of at the time and have been most annoyed with. Rip the band-aid off for 1-2 years and just suck. This half measured rebuild has been sluggish and not very fun to watch. They didn't want to trade a player like Xander, but didn't want to give him a lucrative contract either. Did they do the right thing in moving on? Sure, but there was value to be had in a trade. I don't even mean at the deadline. When they signed Trevor Story they should have started looking at trades. It's not just him, just a microcosm of missed value in order to rebuild while kind of, sort of contending. People will argue that it's still a business and being bad is not good business. I'd argue this current Red Sox situation is worse. I think people can understand a tear down. Ask the average Boston sports fan to name 5 players on this roster and I'm betting the get stuck on 2-3. They've created apathy which I think is way worse.
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Post by dirtdog on Sept 3, 2024 16:58:19 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 3, 2024 17:01:25 GMT -5
I just don't get it. The Sox have had 1 playoff run in the last 6 years (although the book hasn't been closed for this year, we can only hope). I get taken aback at the leeway given by some folks in this regard. This rebuild has taken too long. It has been unnessarily prolonged by the slow deconstruction of the 2018 squad and an aversion to signing top free agents and / or the FA signings we made have underpeformed. Sorry to knock Story, but it has been a bad outcome on resource management thus far. Nobody expects to win WS every year, or 1 every 5 or so years, which he have been unbelievably lucky to have happened. But that doesn't mean you cant make the playoffs every every year, or other year....something more than 1 every 6 years for a franchise this rich and with a voracious fan base appetite for winning. Just relying on prospects and or lower level signings just is not gonna do it. It can happen, but the odds are long. There is too much talent spread across the league. More has to be done in the FA market to build / keep a playoff level club. This is exactly what I was afraid of at the time and have been most annoyed with. Rip the band-aid off for 1-2 years and just suck. This half measured rebuild has been sluggish and not very fun to watch. They didn't want to trade a player like Xander, but didn't want to give him a lucrative contract either. Did they do the right thing in moving on? Sure, but there was value to be had in a trade. I don't even mean at the deadline. When they signed Trevor Story they should have started looking at trades. It's not just him, just a microcosm of missed value in order to rebuild while kind of, sort of contending. People will argue that it's still a business and being bad is not good business. I'd argue this current Red Sox situation is worse. I think people can understand a tear down. Ask the average Boston sports fan to name 5 players on this roster and I'm betting the get stuck on 2-3. They've created apathy which I think is way worse. No they dont. See “bridge year” comments. This town would go ape **** if they tried to tank like the O’s (and that goes for any Boston sports team)
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 3, 2024 17:11:20 GMT -5
This is exactly what I was afraid of at the time and have been most annoyed with. Rip the band-aid off for 1-2 years and just suck. This half measured rebuild has been sluggish and not very fun to watch. They didn't want to trade a player like Xander, but didn't want to give him a lucrative contract either. Did they do the right thing in moving on? Sure, but there was value to be had in a trade. I don't even mean at the deadline. When they signed Trevor Story they should have started looking at trades. It's not just him, just a microcosm of missed value in order to rebuild while kind of, sort of contending. People will argue that it's still a business and being bad is not good business. I'd argue this current Red Sox situation is worse. I think people can understand a tear down. Ask the average Boston sports fan to name 5 players on this roster and I'm betting the get stuck on 2-3. They've created apathy which I think is way worse. No they dont. See “bridge year” comments. This town would go ape **** if they tried to tank like the O’s (and that goes for any Boston sports team) I would argue the Patriots didn't put their best effort into building the roster. They're the odds favorite to have the #1 pick and not favored in any games this year. I think most fans are somewhat comfortable with this, but then again they have the blanket of having secured a potential franchise QB. I think fans would be annoyed, but I think they'd understand if they saw a real plan in action.
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 3, 2024 17:44:28 GMT -5
No they dont. See “bridge year” comments. This town would go ape **** if they tried to tank like the O’s (and that goes for any Boston sports team) I would argue the Patriots didn't put their best effort into building the roster. They're the odds favorite to have the #1 pick and not favored in any games this year. I think most fans are somewhat comfortable with this, but then again they have the blanket of having secured a potential franchise QB. I think fans would be annoyed, but I think they'd understand if they saw a real plan in action. I again disagree. Especially with the sports talk hotheads rilling up folks by saying tanking is an affront to sports
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 3, 2024 18:00:20 GMT -5
You're right. How silly of me to want to see the Sox spend money when they have such a paycheck to paycheck existence. Thankfully they have people like you looking out for their billionaire profits as the Red Sox business is struggling so mightily. And you think relying on Whitlock with his injury history was a sound strategy? Injuries are not unique to just our poor Red Sox. Plenty of other teams win despite them. Nobody is bitching about the Sox not winning a World Series since 2018. The complaining is about missing the playoffs 5 years out of 6 during a time where 40% of the league makes the playoffs. It's becoming quite a lengthy rebuild. So you have to wait until that one point every decade where the system is producing to spend money? And I'm not talking about throwing it around like a drunken sailor giving Xander 280 million or something insane like that. I'm talking about the idea that if the system is in a fallow period and you're a big market team you're supposed go 78-84 every year or hope for a big overachiever year like 2021, that you can't spend what it takes to be a top 40% team while you wait for the system to finally develop? I mean, I certainly dont advocate trading their top kids, but it will take them awhile to develop in the majors and hit their stride so you supplement them and give them something stable to come into. The 2007 youth brigade of Pedroia, Kester, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Youks, and Buchholz had Manny and Ortiz and Schilling and other very high priced top notch talent around when they broke in. The Sox were hardly a juggernaut when they signed Manny. Should they have waited until 2007 to get a talent like that? I dont think it needs to be 1 way or the other. If you have a big market team, exploit that advantage, whether its top tier talent or getting as much quality depth as possible. Its simply not acceptable for the Sox to miss the playoffs five years out of six. I am sure every Red Sox fan would love it if they spent like the Dodgers! They never will ! Deal with it ! I deal with it by voicing my displeasure with their choice rather than simply just being satisfied with a mediocre also ran product of a team and waving my pompoms in fan boy approval.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 3, 2024 18:07:32 GMT -5
This is exactly what I was afraid of at the time and have been most annoyed with. Rip the band-aid off for 1-2 years and just suck. This half measured rebuild has been sluggish and not very fun to watch. They didn't want to trade a player like Xander, but didn't want to give him a lucrative contract either. Did they do the right thing in moving on? Sure, but there was value to be had in a trade. I don't even mean at the deadline. When they signed Trevor Story they should have started looking at trades. It's not just him, just a microcosm of missed value in order to rebuild while kind of, sort of contending. People will argue that it's still a business and being bad is not good business. I'd argue this current Red Sox situation is worse. I think people can understand a tear down. Ask the average Boston sports fan to name 5 players on this roster and I'm betting the get stuck on 2-3. They've created apathy which I think is way worse. No they dont. See “bridge year” comments. This town would go ape **** if they tried to tank like the O’s (and that goes for any Boston sports team) No they wouldn't go ape ****. They'd have apathy like they do now. They are the least talked about franchise in their own town. As an aside I do wonder when the Patriots excitement level returns to the early 90s level. They used to have Fenway sold out every night and a buzz that has mostly been missing for a long time. Now I dont prefer to see a tank job, especially now with the lottery thing. because if that gets messed up then you're terrible for years. I'd prefer to paper over it with money until the great cheap labor arrives to stay playoff competitive as an 85 - 90 win team instead of being around or under .500 playing meaningless Seotember games.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 3, 2024 18:10:52 GMT -5
Give me a sign of life tonight boys. It is flippin' Septemeber. That is 7 damn months before April. Way to long to hope for better things.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 3, 2024 18:13:21 GMT -5
No they dont. See “bridge year” comments. This town would go ape **** if they tried to tank like the O’s (and that goes for any Boston sports team) I would argue the Patriots didn't put their best effort into building the roster. They're the odds favorite to have the #1 pick and not favored in any games this year. I think most fans are somewhat comfortable with this, but then again they have the blanket of having secured a potential franchise QB. I think fans would be annoyed, but I think they'd understand if they saw a real plan in action. The Sox actually lucked out with Xander in a way. They blew the extension and signed a player to replace him that cost more than his extension would have cost and failed to trade or sign Xander and even blew getting a 2nd round pick for him having to settle for just a 4th round compensation pick. Sometimes you do everything right and it dont work out. Sometimes you mess up and it works out great. That's what happened here. The 4th round pick wound up being Kristian Campbell.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 3, 2024 18:20:03 GMT -5
Duran got a hit but everyone else struck out in the first inning? Well that's just a little too on the nose isn't it?
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Post by incandenza on Sept 3, 2024 18:26:18 GMT -5
Whither Rafaela, I wonder, when Story returns? I'd put him at 2B, personally, at least with Hamilton out (or against lefties), but they've scarcely played him there all year. If you move him to the outfield and Duran to left then you kind of have to bench O'Neill against righties, which wouldn't actually be a terrible idea, but again, are they willing to do it?
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 3, 2024 18:35:39 GMT -5
I would argue the Patriots didn't put their best effort into building the roster. They're the odds favorite to have the #1 pick and not favored in any games this year. I think most fans are somewhat comfortable with this, but then again they have the blanket of having secured a potential franchise QB. I think fans would be annoyed, but I think they'd understand if they saw a real plan in action. The Sox actually lucked out with Xander in a way. They blew the extension and signed a player to replace him that cost more than his extension would have cost and failed to trade or sign Xander and even blew getting a 2nd round pick for him having to settle for just a 4th round compensation pick. Sometimes you do everything right and it dont work out. Sometimes you mess up and it works out great. That's what happened here. The 4th round pick wound up being Kristian Campbell. That is interesting. I didn't realize Campbell was the draft pick for Xander. That's incredibly lucky. As far as fan reaction, did the FO do anything to generate positive buzz this off-season? Most people just wrote them off before the year began and they seemed to over achieve. They literally had Devers and Jansen calling out the team and Jordan Montgomery saying he didn't want to sign here because he wanted to go to a contender. I don't see that as being overly different to having a tear down year. They has a bridge year in 2013 and won the WS. I think in the past it was probably harder when the Patriots, Red Sox, Bruins and Celtics either had championships in recent years or championship aspirations, but now I think the realism is starting to settle that sometimes you just need to be bad for a year or so. Henry is not a very well liked owner to begin with and sports radio calls the ownership cheap on the daily. I'm like genuinely shocked if I find another Sox fan out in the wild these days. I think a team with predictable mediocrity being mediocre makes fans apathetic. I think with anger you at least know the fans still care. I worry that when they do decide to spend the fans might not return like they once had and that means not being able to retain exuberant payrolls.
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,590
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Post by asm18 on Sept 3, 2024 18:39:00 GMT -5
Whither Rafaela, I wonder, when Story returns? I'd put him at 2B, personally, at least with Hamilton out (or against lefties), but they've scarcely played him there all year. If you move him to the outfield and Duran to left then you kind of have to bench O'Neill against righties, which wouldn't actually be a terrible idea, but again, are they willing to do it? I guess at the very least, you can use Rafaela’s versatility to even more aggressively pinch hit, pinch run or sub. If you have a base lineup where Ceddanne is at 2B you have a bench of something like: “catcher X”, Valdez, Rob, Romy, Sogard (or Gasper). I would like to imagine Trevor Story off a long injury and short rehab is not immune from getting pinch hit for - especially against elite righty relievers - if his bat doesn’t look good right away. Cora had said he’s going to be hitting near the bottom of the order so they hopefully are realistic about that
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Post by incandenza on Sept 3, 2024 18:45:47 GMT -5
Whither Rafaela, I wonder, when Story returns? I'd put him at 2B, personally, at least with Hamilton out (or against lefties), but they've scarcely played him there all year. If you move him to the outfield and Duran to left then you kind of have to bench O'Neill against righties, which wouldn't actually be a terrible idea, but again, are they willing to do it? I guess at the very least, you can use Rafaela’s versatility to even more aggressively pinch hit, pinch run or sub. If you have a base lineup where Ceddanne is at 2B you have a bench of something like: “catcher X”, Valdez, Rob, Romy, Sogard (or Gasper). I would like to imagine Trevor Story off a long injury and short rehab is not immune from getting pinch hit for - especially against elite righty relievers - if his bat doesn’t look good right away. Cora had said he’s going to be hitting near the bottom of the order so they hopefully are realistic about that I would like to imagine this as well, but it would require me to believe in Cora's ability to make rational decisions regarding his favored players and I am not really in a place where I can do that right now.
Their "rehab, schmehab" attitude has hurt them with Yoshida and O'Neill so far this season and I am fully expecting that to be the case with Story as well. (By the way, remember when there was a minor controversy when Cora implied to the press that Casas could come back any time he wanted and they were just waiting for him to decide that he was ready? Certain people labeled Casas "soft" as a result? Turned out he was the one guy to hit the ground running when he came back from injury this season.)
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Sept 3, 2024 18:46:43 GMT -5
David Peterson - starting for the Mets tomorrow - has the 3rd highest gap in MLB among qualified pitchers between his ERA (2.83) and his statcast expected ERA (5.15). But he is also left-handed 0 runs, 2 hits, 3 walks, 12 strikeouts. 2:12 game time I meant this as a joke. But good lord
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Post by dirtdog on Sept 3, 2024 18:46:48 GMT -5
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,590
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Post by asm18 on Sept 3, 2024 18:48:22 GMT -5
0 runs, 2 hits, 3 walks, 12 strikeouts. 2:12 game time I meant this as a joke. But good lord
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Post by bluechip on Sept 3, 2024 18:48:50 GMT -5
Can the Red Sox bats please support their pitchers? If these guys can’t. There are players at Triple A who can.
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 3, 2024 18:50:54 GMT -5
Can the Red Sox bats please support their pitchers? If these guys can’t. There are players at Triple A who can. The bats are on strike for the past 3 weeks
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Post by dirtdog on Sept 3, 2024 18:51:03 GMT -5
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 3, 2024 18:53:31 GMT -5
Any chance Peterson gets lifted after 4 innings?
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