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2024-2025 Front Office, Staff, and Coaching Changes
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 11, 2024 6:23:50 GMT -5
I don't really have much stake in keeping Fatse one way or another as I really don't think that hitting coaches really sway things to a large degree one way or another, perhaps I am wrong on that though? However it is comical that some on here are ready to pretty much blame him for any and all underperformers but wave off any credit for all the overperformers. It doesn't really help your argument to use all the negative points you can but stick your head in the sand and ignore the overperformers.
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Post by bluechip on Oct 11, 2024 9:49:06 GMT -5
Why get rid of Mani Martinez? He had been the bullpen catcher for well over a decade and joined the organization in 2005.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Oct 11, 2024 13:07:03 GMT -5
I don't really have much stake in keeping Fatse one way or another as I really don't think that hitting coaches really sway things to a large degree one way or another, perhaps I am wrong on that though? However it is comical that some on here are ready to pretty much blame him for any and all underperformers but wave off any credit for all the overperformers. It doesn't really help your argument to use all the negative points you can but stick your head in the sand and ignore the overperformers. I have heard him interviewed a number of times and to say I was not impressed is putting it mildly. there are reasons that they take a called 3rd strike on a fastball down the middle and it is approach. Who is involved in the approach? Cora? Bailey? No. It is Fatse. I always thought that a hitting coach spotted flaws in a players swing and helped them through it. All I see is Rafaela swinging at pitches all over the place. These fundamentals have to be taught. I see no real teaching going on. They strike out on fastballs all the time looking or check swings often. Besides that, why was there 3 hitting coaches? So one could say one thing another would say something else and the other would decide the other 2 were wrong? Makes no sense to me. Fatse has been here 3 years and they strike out at a ridiculous pace. They nedd a real hitting coach, not someone who just has the title.
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 11, 2024 13:14:46 GMT -5
I don't really have much stake in keeping Fatse one way or another as I really don't think that hitting coaches really sway things to a large degree one way or another, perhaps I am wrong on that though? However it is comical that some on here are ready to pretty much blame him for any and all underperformers but wave off any credit for all the overperformers. It doesn't really help your argument to use all the negative points you can but stick your head in the sand and ignore the overperformers. I have heard him interviewed a number of times and to say I was not impressed is putting it mildly. there are reasons that they take a called 3rd strike on a fastball down the middle and it is approach. Who is involved in the approach? Cora? Bailey? No. It is Fatse. I always thought that a hitting coach spotted flaws in a players swing and helped them through it. All I see is Rafaela swinging at pitches all over the place. These fundamentals have to be taught. I see no real teaching going on. They strike out on fastballs all the time looking or check swings often. Besides that, why was there 3 hitting coaches? So one could say one thing another would say something else and the other would decide the other 2 were wrong? Makes no sense to me. Fatse has been here 3 years and they strike out at a ridiculous pace. They nedd a real hitting coach, not someone who just has the title. Right so your theory is that fatse is telling the batters to just watch 3rd strikes? Rafaela has also hacked at everything his whole way up the minors. That's a Rafaela issue not a fatse thing. Like I said I don't really care either way but it seems many want to just blame fatse for any and all poor hitting when it's just absurd to me.
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Post by humanbeingbean on Oct 11, 2024 13:24:27 GMT -5
There is a balance between trying to get your best swing off/making the best swing decisions possible and approaching ABs strategically based on baserunners, etc. I think Fatse definitely deserves credit for prioritizing swing decisions and hitting for power, but more could be done to stress putting the ball in play when that's all is needed to advance and drive in runners. Compare and contrast the types of swings between an O'Neill vs. Yoshida with two strikes, for example.
I don't mind keeping Fatse on board but hopefully we can see more balls put in play and fewer K's in key spots. Don't always need to kill the ball to score, and there's an attainable balance.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Oct 11, 2024 13:34:53 GMT -5
I don't really have much stake in keeping Fatse one way or another as I really don't think that hitting coaches really sway things to a large degree one way or another, perhaps I am wrong on that though? However it is comical that some on here are ready to pretty much blame him for any and all underperformers but wave off any credit for all the overperformers. It doesn't really help your argument to use all the negative points you can but stick your head in the sand and ignore the overperformers. I have heard him interviewed a number of times and to say I was not impressed is putting it mildly. there are reasons that they take a called 3rd strike on a fastball down the middle and it is approach. Who is involved in the approach? Cora? Bailey? No. It is Fatse. I always thought that a hitting coach spotted flaws in a players swing and helped them through it. All I see is Rafaela swinging at pitches all over the place. These fundamentals have to be taught. I see no real teaching going on. They strike out on fastballs all the time looking or check swings often. Besides that, why was there 3 hitting coaches? So one could say one thing another would say something else and the other would decide the other 2 were wrong? Makes no sense to me. Fatse has been here 3 years and they strike out at a ridiculous pace. They nedd a real hitting coach, not someone who just has the title. Does John Henry know you weren't impressed by his interviews? I'm sure that would change the situation. Also, for the record, almost all of the remaining playoff teams have three hitting coaches, and all of them have multiple. That's not that uncommon of a thing, and common sense would tell you that they were hired in alignment with organizational principles, so I doubt all three of them believe completely different things or are sending mixed messages. As ematz said, it's not like they are telling the players to strike out. So if your mindset is that the offensive output being below the perceived talent level warrants a fresh approach, sure. But you're not nearly qualified enough to say that it's causal, or that he's not a real hitting coach. The audacity to say "I see no real teaching going on" as if you have any access to what goes on behind the scenes is pretty nauseating, to me.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 11, 2024 13:55:37 GMT -5
I also strongly disagree that a major league hitting coach is there to be teaching "fundamentals." A player who has bad fundamentals when they reach the majors is in pretty big trouble. The major league hitting coach can help make marginal improvements, help find holes in the swing, that sort of thing. He's not there to be like "don't swing at balls, which are defined as..." If Rafaela is swinging at pitches all over the place because the team is emphasizing aggressiveness, that's on the coaching. If Rafaela is swinging at pitches all over the place while everyone else on the team is more passive, and the contention seems to be that they are overly passive... what is a hitting coach supposed to be doing?
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Post by greenmonster on Oct 11, 2024 14:17:34 GMT -5
...for me when I hear the idea of fundamentals that is adjusting your approach at the plate based on the situation, advancing runners with productive outs, etc. On defense, backing up bases, hitting the cutoff, knowing how many outs there are, etc. I would agree that these should be known for anybody that makes it to the majors and a major league coach wouldn't need to teach them. However, a major league coach should be reinforcing the importance or players will drift away from them in favor of something they think will be rewarded. One way to get out of a slump is to "focus on fundamentals".
I also think that a good coach works with the skills of each individual. The minute a coach tries to run everyone thru the same cookie cutter they are making a mistake. Let big slow guys focus on home runs and smaller speedy guys focus on getting on base and stealing bases. Everyone doesn't have to be all the same.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 11, 2024 14:26:41 GMT -5
...for me when I hear the idea of fundamentals that is adjusting your approach at the plate based on the situation, advancing runners with productive outs, etc. On defense, backing up bases, hitting the cutoff, knowing how many outs there are, etc. I would agree that these should be known for anybody that makes it to the majors and a major league coach wouldn't need to teach them. However, a major league coach should be reinforcing the importance or players will drift away from them in favor of something they think will be rewarded. One way to get out of a slump is to "focus on fundamentals". I also think that a good coach works with the skills of each individual. The minute a coach tries to run everyone thru the same cookie cutter they are making a mistake. Let big slow guys focus on home runs and smaller speedy guys focus on getting on base and stealing bases. Everyone doesn't have to be all the same. Skipping to the second point (not sure I have a lot to add to the first): I think Fatse's strength is the way he works with the different skills of individual hitters. Refsnyder, Wong, and Duran are all extremely different in physical abilities, approaches, strengths, weaknesses, etc, but I think those are three guys who have done a great job developing and maximizing their skills. Rafaela is getting brought up a lot, but Fatse has done a really good job getting a more disciplined approach from other free swingers without neutering their aggressiveness. Duran, again, is the best example of this.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Oct 11, 2024 14:44:26 GMT -5
I also strongly disagree that a major league hitting coach is there to be teaching "fundamentals." A player who has bad fundamentals when they reach the majors is in pretty big trouble. The major league hitting coach can help make marginal improvements, help find holes in the swing, that sort of thing. He's not there to be like "don't swing at balls, which are defined as..." If Rafaela is swinging at pitches all over the place because the team is emphasizing aggressiveness, that's on the coaching. If Rafaela is swinging at pitches all over the place while everyone else on the team is more passive, and the contention seems to be that they are overly passive... what is a hitting coach supposed to be doing? Tacking onto your point that another pretty fundamental role of the hitting coach is probably identifying trends in opposing pitchers and helping hitters study/prepare to face them (I couldn’t tell you if Fatse is any good at it)
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Oct 11, 2024 15:09:35 GMT -5
Tyler O'Neill had a .248/.319/.458 career line coming into this year and was just .229/.310/.397 in 22-23. Romy Gonzalez was previously a .222/.240/.361 hitter. Refsnyder went from flaming out of the league to being one of the better platoon players out there. The development of Abreu and Hamilton seems pretty clear. Hamilton, in particular, went from looking totally overmatched to confident and in control of his at bats. Flipping it around, what healthy players underachieved? *Maybe* Rafaela at the plate, though his propensity to chase was a concern before he reached the majors. Reese McGuire had been a pumpkin before so it seems like him turning back into one isn't something I'm going to blame him for, and they cut bat there. EDIT: Also, the "other than Duran/Wong" line kinda buries the obviously - Duran blossomed into one of the best hitters in baseball! That alone would be a big deal! O'Neill was previously injured. Romy was previously injured. This was widely reported. That said, I think Fatse has made a stronger case for himself this year: Abreu and Hamilton seemed to get though their growing pains moderately well. Duran is just a physical beast who benefitted from revamping his running style, fielding coaching, and sinking himself into the game. OTOH, Yoshida was inconsistent (yes, there was also injury there.) Rafaela failed miserably. And of all the bit players only Smith approached adequacy. Pablo Reyes cratered, as did Dalbec and Valdez and Cooper. It seemed they couldn't bring in anyone who was remotely competent or had a plan at the plate. Raffy fell apart at the end and someone must have been telling Cora he would do just fine at the plate when he was actually a black hole for a month. (Not that ultimately playing Raffy is on Fatse, but still, it's not a glowing endorsement of the orgs ability to vet player performance/injury impacts.) Meanwhile behind the dish, Wong faded badly in the second half, McGuire struggled, and Jansen underachived. Grissom was entirely lost early-on, but I'm willing to chalk that up to injury. Also, the Sox had an offensive resurgence when they decided to have one-on-one meetings with the hitters. (Which just sounds nuts to me - that they weren't doing that already.) So there's a lot of indicators pointing this way and that. Ultimately, I'm more agnostic on Fatse than I was going into the year, but the constant trying to barrel the ball no matter what became tired. Sure, they scored runs in bunches, but there was no coordination at times to the offense. The whole was less than the sum of its parts. I mostly agree but wouldn't classify Ceddane as a failure per say. He is a young kid who predictably had growing pains but posted even though he was put in positions that didn't help him. I think if they can get the kid in CF so he's not having to concentrate on playing everywhere he could possibly spend more time focusing on hitting. I give the kid credit, even though he looked gassed by the end of the year and was swinging at everything.
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chaimtime
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Post by chaimtime on Oct 11, 2024 15:20:18 GMT -5
One thing I will say about the team struggling with situational hitting this year—one of the side effects of the huge velocity across the league is that it’s not quite so straightforward to adjust your approach to the situatio anymore. You kind of have to grip it and rip it up there when the pitcher is pumping 99 with a wipeout slider.
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keninten
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Post by keninten on Oct 11, 2024 15:22:35 GMT -5
When I think about coaching hitters, it`s all about Ted Williams and Charley Lau/Walt Hriniak. They had two different approaches. Each can work depending on the player. It would be good for a team to employ two hitting coaches that each can teach separately. Hriniak sure helped Dwight Evans and a lot of White Sox players. Ted didn`t agree much with Charley but hitters are different. Both methods worked.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 12, 2024 9:56:20 GMT -5
Lets bring up Anthony, Mayer,Campbell and Teel so Fatse can show the them the art of striking out. Not to pick on you specifically, but the board has in the past understood this part of the game. That knowledge seems to have been lost so it needs to be restated. Tom Tango in The Book explained why strikeouts are no costlier than other batting outs. He runs through the different states, the combination of men on base and outs at the time. He lists the probability of each of those in detail. In one case it's better to have the batter K so the likelihood of a GDP is quashed. The other negative cases arise relatively infrequently. We may not like the optics but that has little to nothing at all to do with the run value of a strikeout as opposed to any other out. Disabuse yourself of that notion. As for Fatse, my own opinion which I've stated many times is that the offense has not been the issue. The numbers back that up. If you need a whipping boy then whip away, but other facets of the game - specifically strong defense and reliable relief pitching - have been lacking. Correct those and the team I believe is on its way.
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Post by greenmonster on Oct 12, 2024 12:19:05 GMT -5
Not sure how the referenced book takes situations into account but IMO sometimes a strikeout would be the worst thing to do. Case in point, on Sept 20th the Sox go extra innings with the Twins. In both the 10th and 11th innings the Sox came to bat in the bottom of the inning with Manfred-Man on second and no outs. If they score they win. A ground ball to second to advance the runner and a sacrifice flyball would win the game.....instead Sox tack onto their 20K game total and lost in 12 innings. The Sox played 20 extra innings games this season. I am sure there were other similar scenarios which might have produced 3or4 extra wins and helped them squeeze into the playoffs
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 12, 2024 12:44:38 GMT -5
Not sure how the referenced book takes situations into account but IMO sometimes a strikeout would be the worst thing to do. Case in point, on Sept 20th the Sox go extra innings with the Twins. In both the 10th and 11th innings the Sox came to bat in the bottom of the inning with Manfred-Man on second and no outs. If they score they win. A ground ball to second to advance the runner and a sacrifice flyball would win the game.....instead Sox tack onto their 20K game total and lost in 12 innings. The Sox played 20 extra innings games this season. I am sure there were other similar scenarios which might have produced 3or4 extra wins and helped them squeeze into the playoffs My feeling is in the aggregate it balances out but that the additional strike outs take its toll in closer game situations where a run is needed. Sure, a strike out removes a double play possibility but it also removes the possibility of groundouts and even flyouts that move baserunner(s) 90 feet. It's probably like the bunt in a sense. In aggregate it's a poor strategy and stifles total runs figures so teams pretty much have stopped doing it. But I think it misses the mark. Theres a saying if you play for 1 run that's all you're going to get True, but sometimes that's all you really need, so I think there are some infrequent occasions where it's worth it. I mean, bunting doesnt guarantee a run either, but depending upon certain variables that deviate from the norm, bunting can be helpful. Again, a productive out, but let's face it batters make outs far more likelier than not, so if they're going to do that (not purposefully like bunting), then a productive out is sure as hell better than a damn do nothing strikeout. And it makes sense that striking out in particular situations is pretty damn harmful. In others, a batter strikes out leading off an inning- who cares? A batter strikes out with a runner on 3b and 1 out, I care. It's very situational dependent.
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Post by bojacksoxfan on Oct 12, 2024 12:49:18 GMT -5
Lets bring up Anthony, Mayer,Campbell and Teel so Fatse can show the them the art of striking out. Not to pick on you specifically, but the board has in the past understood this part of the game. That knowledge seems to have been lost so it needs to be restated. Tom Tango in The Book explained why strikeouts are no costlier than other batting outs. He runs through the different states, the combination of men on base and outs at the time. He lists the probability of each of those in detail. In one case it's better to have the batter K so the likelihood of a GDP is quashed. The other negative cases arise relatively infrequently. We may not like the optics but that has little to nothing at all to do with the run value of a strikeout as opposed to any other out. Disabuse yourself of that notion. This is true, but deserves additional context imo. A player with a 40% strikeout rate is not an MLB player, but one with a 40% GB or FB rate would be of variable quality. I think that speaks to the importance of context for individual players beyond what those data say about individual ABs.
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Post by greenmonster on Oct 12, 2024 13:19:23 GMT -5
Something interesting to ponder......coincidence?
The 7 teams (COL, SEA, BOS, OAK, PIT, TBR, CIN) with the highest strikeout rates DIDN'T make the playoffs
4 of 5 teams (SDP, HOU, KCR, ARI, CLE) with the lowest strikeout rates DID make the playoffs
Note: ARI did NOT make the playoffs but were not eliminated until game 162 via tie-breaker
edit: corrected after taiwansox heads-up.
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Post by taiwansox on Oct 12, 2024 13:25:49 GMT -5
Something interesting to ponder......coincidence? The 5 teams (COL, SEA, BOS, OAK, PIT) with the highest strikeout rates did NOT make the playoffs The 5 teams (SDP, HOU, KCR, ARI, CLE) with the lowest strikeout rates DID make the playoffs Agreed, just a technicality but ARI didn’t make the playoffs
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Post by wcsoxfan on Oct 12, 2024 14:27:36 GMT -5
The 3 true outcome (BB, K, HR) philosophy has been a staple of modern baseball for good reason. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work well with the current extra inning rules.
Ideally teams/players would be capable of doing both, but I'm not sure if that's practical. Perhaps having a pinch hitter capable of sacrificing the runner to 3rd or making contact to the right side to drive in the runner from third, can make up for some of the deficiencies.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Oct 15, 2024 15:09:59 GMT -5
Lets bring up Anthony, Mayer,Campbell and Teel so Fatse can show the them the art of striking out. Not to pick on you specifically, but the board has in the past understood this part of the game. That knowledge seems to have been lost so it needs to be restated. Tom Tango in The Book explained why strikeouts are no costlier than other batting outs. He runs through the different states, the combination of men on base and outs at the time. He lists the probability of each of those in detail. In one case it's better to have the batter K so the likelihood of a GDP is quashed. The other negative cases arise relatively infrequently. We may not like the optics but that has little to nothing at all to do with the run value of a strikeout as opposed to any other out. Disabuse yourself of that notion. As for Fatse, my own opinion which I've stated many times is that the offense has not been the issue. The numbers back that up. If you need a whipping boy then whip away, but other facets of the game - specifically strong defense and reliable relief pitching - have been lacking. Correct those and the team I believe is on its way. I don't mind taking the slings and the slings and the arrows. I have an opinion and don't mind getting differing opinions on this matter. i may be dead wrong about Fatse, but hearing him talk and knowing what i have done with my players and seeing success tells me otherwise. Everybody is here to discuss differences and i learn a different perspective from everyone here. I like the back and forth as long as it remains respectful.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Oct 18, 2024 18:21:30 GMT -5
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Post by bloomstaxonomy on Oct 18, 2024 18:33:02 GMT -5
Also, from the rumors department, Sean McAdam wrote today that he believes Dillon Lawson has the inside track to fill the vacant assistant hitting coach coach position (he was the Red Sox minor league hitting coordinator this past season, and I've read that his work focused on players in the upper minors such as Anthony, Mayer, Teel, Campbell, et al.) and that assistant GM Paul Toboni has the inside track to be named GM under Breslow.
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Post by julyanmorley on Oct 18, 2024 18:36:07 GMT -5
That's an interesting title. I think Boddy said after he left the Reds that he wasn't going to work for a team again unless he got the big seat, but I guess we are making it worth his while for the time being. I'll bet he's getting paid well.
His big passion now seems to be building hardware to train AI to look at motion capture data
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 18, 2024 22:40:46 GMT -5
Also, from the rumors department, Sean McAdam wrote today that he believes Dillon Lawson has the inside track to fill the vacant assistant hitting coach coach position (he was the Red Sox minor league hitting coordinator this past season, and I've read that his work focused on players in the upper minors such as Anthony, Mayer, Teel, Campbell, et al.) and that assistant GM Paul Toboni has the inside track to be named GM under Breslow. Would be unsurprising on Toboni. They've promoted him extremely aggressively.
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