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Red Sox 2012 Offseason
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Post by jdb on Sept 30, 2012 16:53:53 GMT -5
According to reports the Rox are putting Fowler out there and the Twins might trade Span. Would those two be more attractive than Ells? Span has 2 more years controll plus an option year at 4.75, 6 and the 9 million option. Fowler has two more seasons of arbitration and made 2.35 mill this year.
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 30, 2012 19:15:34 GMT -5
Napoli for 1B
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 3, 2012 14:12:22 GMT -5
Boston Red Sox redsox#RedSox today named Eddie Bane Special Assistant to Player Personnel. Announcement made by EVP/General Manager Ben Cherington.
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Post by plusplusintangible on Oct 4, 2012 15:16:12 GMT -5
I guess I'll justify posting this by saying that I'm for hanging on to Ellsbury this offseason, but my thoughts really concern going beyond 2013. I think the prevailing belief is that this town isn't big enough for both Ells and JBJ, but two suggestions: Is playing JBJ in RF really a waste of his talents? As we all know, RF at Fenway is a challenge and from what I understand he has a capable arm for the position. I know he doesn't profile conventionally as a middle of the order bat, but as long as he's productive I don't think it's that big of a deal.
Another possibility would be JBJ in center and Ellsbury in LF. I guess you could say signing Ellsbury to a hefty deal after the Crawford debacle would be the definition of insanity, but it's not like they're exactly the same player. Ells hits lefties better, better OBP( I guess one kinda begets the other),better power, and hopefully could be had for less $ than Crawford. I wouldn't call his last stint in left a failure, more an experiment that never got off the ground. I don't see the Beltre collision as in any way predictive, though I'm sure the mediots will, but I'm getting ahead of myself...
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 4, 2012 15:29:42 GMT -5
What would be a waste of time is signing him to a big deal and him being injured most of the time. Besides that big year he really hasn't done anything to warrant going crazy about.
The best thing to to do is keep him(unless someone pays for 2011 Ellsbury) let him have a great season and then get the draft picks.
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Post by okin15 on Oct 4, 2012 15:55:21 GMT -5
Why we shouldn't pay Hamilton a bunch of cash:
That, plus he's old. Still, if the Rangers offer him the qualifier, there may not be a ton of bidders for his services (though it only takes one). With a smaller LF to patrol, I can think of worse ways that we could spend, say 15 per season on a five year deal. Wouldn't that be worth the risk?
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 4, 2012 16:09:22 GMT -5
The only way I would endorse going for Hamilton is a 2 year/15(or 20) Million Dollar deal.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 4, 2012 23:19:55 GMT -5
I love that some people are calling Ellsbury "fragile." His two - count em, two - injuries occurred when 1) he was run over by a truck (Beltre) and 2) had a grown man jump on the shoulder joint of his out-stretched arm. Fragile. Yeah. That's it.
Play out his contract unless you get an obscene offer then decide if you want to keep him after 2013 or let him go to NYY as they shift Granderson to LF.
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Post by rangoon82 on Oct 5, 2012 18:50:00 GMT -5
FWIW, Cot's has the Sox at $45.6 mill on the books for 2013, not including the following arbitration eligible players:
Ellsbury, Bailey, Salty, Breslow, Sweeney, Bard, Aceves, Aviles, Miller, Hill, Morales.
Those guys made ~$25 mill last year according to Cots, so assuming a $15 ? mill combined raise and the Sox payroll obligations would be about $85 mill in 2013. Assuming Ortiz returns the Sox should be about $80 mill plus or minus under the 2013 cap of $178 mill.
Looks like there's a number of solid 2/3 SP options out there that could prob. be had for relatively short $: Haren (prove it deal?), Edwin Jackson, Shaun Marcum, Brandon McCarthy (caveat: away from OAK the last 2 years his ERA gained ~ 1 pt.), Jake Peavy...
The other needs seem to be 1B & OF. I guess Im climbing aboard the Napoli at 1B train. Getting Ross back in RF would be nice too. Melky on a prove it deal might not be horrible. Prado as a LF might look nice in the 2 or 6 hole (maybe Pedroia hits 3).
I think Napoli, Ross, Prado plus one of those SP would be fairly affordable in terms of $ per year and # of years and the team should be pretty competitive, as long as Lester/Buchholz get it and keep it together.
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Post by bentossaurus on Oct 5, 2012 21:19:44 GMT -5
I'll keep it simple, the worst thing the FO could do is precisely to go out and try to make a competitive team for 2013. It will exhaust resources and ultimately fail in its goals.
Forget the most easily impressionable fans, forget the mediots, forget the narrative you created and bought it yourself. Lay foundation stones for a sustained and medium-to-longterm success.
Just because you have plenty of "payroll space", you don't have to spend it. Just because you have a deep system, you don't have to trade it. Disregard the warnings of opportunity cost because the chance was never there in the first place, no matter what you talked yourself into believing.
Aim for a five year span starting in 2014 and most likely in 2015. DON'T TRY TO RUSH IT! Stay strong with your heading, stay smart with your investments. Plan ahead. Always remember how you got here in the first place, both the good and the bad. Learn with your mistakes.
The biggest obstacle to success are probably the Red Sox themselves.
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Post by amfox1 on Oct 6, 2012 6:53:40 GMT -5
FWIW, Cot's has the Sox at $45.6 mill on the books for 2013, not including the following arbitration eligible players: Ellsbury, Bailey, Salty, Breslow, Sweeney, Bard, Aceves, Aviles, Miller, Hill, Morales. Those guys made ~$25 mill last year according to Cots, so assuming a $15 ? mill combined raise and the Sox payroll obligations would be about $85 mill in 2013. Assuming Ortiz returns the Sox should be about $80 mill plus or minus under the 2013 cap of $178 mill. I suspect that Sweeney will be non-tendered, although that will depend in part on the new manager. Aviles, Aceves and Breslow could also be non-tendered.
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Post by sarasoxer on Oct 6, 2012 7:12:36 GMT -5
I'll keep it simple, the worst thing the FO could do is precisely to go out and try to make a competitive team for 2013. It will exhaust resources and ultimately fail in its goals. Forget the most easily impressionable fans, forget the mediots, forget the narrative you created and bought it yourself. Lay foundation stones for a sustained and medium-to-longterm success. Just because you have plenty of "payroll space", you don't have to spend it. Just because you have a deep system, you don't have to trade it. Disregard the warnings of opportunity cost because the chance was never there in the first place, no matter what you talked yourself into believing. Aim for a five year span starting in 2014 and most likely in 2015. DON'T TRY TO RUSH IT! Stay strong with your heading, stay smart with your investments. Plan ahead. Always remember how you got here in the first place, both the good and the bad. Learn with your mistakes. The biggest obstacle to success are probably the Red Sox themselves. Well said. I agree 100%
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Post by welovewally on Oct 6, 2012 7:45:36 GMT -5
I'll keep it simple, the worst thing the FO could do is precisely to go out and try to make a competitive team for 2013. It will exhaust resources and ultimately fail in its goals. Forget the most easily impressionable fans, forget the mediots, forget the narrative you created and bought it yourself. Lay foundation stones for a sustained and medium-to-longterm success. Just because you have plenty of "payroll space", you don't have to spend it. Just because you have a deep system, you don't have to trade it. Disregard the warnings of opportunity cost because the chance was never there in the first place, no matter what you talked yourself into believing. Aim for a five year span starting in 2014 and most likely in 2015. DON'T TRY TO RUSH IT! Stay strong with your heading, stay smart with your investments. Plan ahead. Always remember how you got here in the first place, both the good and the bad. Learn with your mistakes. The biggest obstacle to success are probably the Red Sox themselves. Well said. I agree 100% I couldn't disagree more. I fully expect The Boston Red Sox to compete for a Division Title and a Playoff Spot EVERY year. I want them to make the moves and spend the money that makes them a Championship caliber roster year in and year out while having an eye on development and the future. Anything else is unacceptable and to those of you who are willing to give away a year or multiple years to try and win in the future are just plain WRONG! This Organization should ALWAYS be trying to WIN and WIN NOW!
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Post by dmaineah on Oct 6, 2012 8:39:05 GMT -5
Your right Wally. There is no reason why the Red Sox shouldn't be expected to compete while waiting for the kids to develop. This team has the financial means to fill holes with great MLB Veterans that should be able and expected to carry the team towards the Playoffs and have enough depth in the minors be it veterans or prospects to help when there are injuries or under performance - Like Youkilis & Ellsbury did -.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 6, 2012 8:54:38 GMT -5
Your right Wally. There is no reason why the Red Sox shouldn't be expected to compete while waiting for the kids to develop. This team has the financial means to fill holes with great MLB Veterans that should be able and expected to carry the team towards the Playoffs and have enough depth in the minors be it veterans or prospects to help when there are injuries or under performance - Like Youkilis & Ellsbury did -. Which "great" MLB veterans would you select to fill those holes? Are there any "great" ones on the FA list? To acquire the great veterans you seek, you have to trade. And what do you suppose other teams are looking for in return? Those same prospects to whom you refer as depth in the minors.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 6, 2012 9:00:21 GMT -5
I couldn't disagree more. I fully expect The Boston Red Sox to compete for a Division Title and a Playoff Spot EVERY year. I want them to make the moves and spend the money that makes them a Championship caliber roster year in and year out while having an eye on development and the future. Anything else is unacceptable and to those of you who are willing to give away a year or multiple years to try and win in the future are just plain WRONG! This Organization should ALWAYS be trying to WIN and WIN NOW!This is how you ruin a franchise.
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Post by dmaineah on Oct 6, 2012 9:20:11 GMT -5
Well Sibby, Here is a short list off the top of my head that I think could fill some holes and make the team competitive;
David Ortiz Cody Ross Josh Hamilton Mike Napoli Michael Bourn Shane Victorino Nick Swisher Tori Hunter Angel Pagan Delmon Young Zack Greinke Anibal Sanchez Jake Peavey Dan Haren A.J. Pierzynski
I think any of those could help at Catcher, First Base, Left or Right Field, DH, Starting Pitcher.
And this is The Boston Red Sox we're talking about here! Not Kansas City or Pittsburgh. This Organization should be able to remain competitive every year while being strong in development without the franchise being ruined.
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Post by jdb on Oct 6, 2012 10:11:43 GMT -5
I think we should compete in 2013 but I agree I wouldnt trade any prospects unless we are getting someone in their prime for multiple years. I think a new manager is going to change the atmosphere in the clubhouse and make guys want to come in everyday and that will go along way. Get a FA or two on short deals to fill a few holes and hope Lester and Buch get to their career norms. Reports have Lackey in great shape and supposedly healthy for the first time in Boston. I don't think 200 innings and a low 4 ERA is out of the question and am excited to see how Doubront develops. I see a lot of similarities with Gio Gonzalez there. Not saying he is going to be a top 5-10 SP in baseball in a few years but he can be a great number 3.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 6, 2012 11:06:00 GMT -5
Well Sibby, Here is a short list off the top of my head that I think could fill some holes and make the team competitive; David Ortiz Cody Ross Josh Hamilton Mike Napoli Michael Bourn Shane Victorino Nick Swisher Tori Hunter Angel Pagan Delmon Young Zack Greinke Anibal Sanchez Jake Peavey Dan Haren A.J. Pierzynski I think any of those could help at Catcher, First Base, Left or Right Field, DH, Starting Pitcher. And this is The Boston Red Sox we're talking about here! Not Kansas City or Pittsburgh. This Organization should be able to remain competitive every year while being strong in development without the franchise being ruined. And which of these players on that list would you call "great"? Hamilton, maybe. But would you want to pay him what it would take to sign him? And, if he falls off the wagon in year one of a five year contract? Ross, Papi, Hunter, Victorino, Napoli, etc., etc. are all good players most of whom are either in or approaching their 30s. No franchise changers here. I'd sign Ross and Papi along with one other FA (I've suggested Napoli) to fill three positions. I'd trade for an Andrus and/or J. Upton. But its going to take top prospects or an Ellsbury to get into the action. Wouldn't it be better to wait a year to see how our own farm system can fill some of those holes? Sands, DeLaRosa, Xander, Webster, Brentz, to name a few, could be knocking at the door in 2014 ST.
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Post by stevedillard on Oct 6, 2012 11:14:31 GMT -5
If Xander projects as a SS, you trade Ellsbury for LF. If Xander has to move off SS, you trade Ellsbury for Elvis Andrus. By year end, you have:
1B- 2b-Pedroia SS-Andrus 3B-Middlebrooks LF-Bogaerts CF-Bradley RF-Ross C-Salty/Lavarnway
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 6, 2012 11:29:30 GMT -5
And if you trade for an Andrus, it frees up Iglesias to incluse in a trade for another position of need.
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Post by jdb on Oct 6, 2012 11:41:06 GMT -5
I think it's going to cost more than Ells to get Andrus. A 24 yr SS who plays good D and is an above average hitter, two time All Star who will make only 4.8 next year and 6.5 in 2014. I don't think they trade him for one year of Ells and think Justin Upton makes more sense for them.
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Post by jmei on Oct 6, 2012 12:01:42 GMT -5
Literally zero chance Ellsbury alone is enough to acquire Andrus. Stop dreaming.
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Post by stevedillard on Oct 6, 2012 12:08:59 GMT -5
It might need some, but Texas has Profhar, meaning Andrus has to be cleared. Next, they may lose Hamilton, or at least move him out of center. So they are a decent fit. Lastly, Andrus is good, but bear in mind, that offensively, he has a career OPS below .700, maxing last year at .727. His career OPS+ is 85. Now, he is 24 years old, and an all-star, but its not as if we are getting a two-dimensional player. If Texas believes they are getting closer to the AL MVP Ellsbury, plus they know Boras, it could be tempting.
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Post by soxin8 on Oct 6, 2012 12:25:43 GMT -5
Your right Wally. There is no reason why the Red Sox shouldn't be expected to compete while waiting for the kids to develop. This team has the financial means to fill holes with great MLB Veterans that should be able and expected to carry the team towards the Playoffs and have enough depth in the minors be it veterans or prospects to help when there are injuries or under performance - Like Youkilis & Ellsbury did -. I am with welovewally and dmaineah here. Now I understand the sentiment of not making bad long term decisions just because you have the money to spend and probably few if any on this board want to trade any of the Sox top prospects in a deal, but if any Sox GM gave up on a year, he would probably be run out of town or fired. I think the Sox just need a couple players and a little better luck with injuries to compete next year. Who will be unbeatable in the AL East?
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