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Post by James Dunne on Aug 3, 2014 12:25:09 GMT -5
De La Rosa a 3.64 ERA, has given up less than a hit per inning, and strikes out more than twice as many as he walks. If the standard is going to be that a pitcher has to be always awesome to earn a shot in next year's rotation then we're going to be waiting a long time for anyone to claim it.
EDIT: He's done more to claim a rotation spot than Doubront ever did.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 3, 2014 12:32:52 GMT -5
De La Rosa a 3.64 ERA, has given up less than a hit per inning, and strikes out more than twice as many as he walks. If the standard is going to be that a pitcher has to be always awesome to earn a shot in next year's rotation then we're going to be waiting a long time for anyone to claim it. EDIT: He's done more to claim a rotation spot than Doubront ever did. This is one guy who lately has seemed to rise to the occasion this year. He may be tipping his change-up as Toronto was sitting on it and getting a LOT of hard contact on it last time, and I've never seen a guy who throws 97 lay off his FB so much. But if he can pitch to the corners up and down with that thing then the change becomes a hammer when he throws it (as long as there's no tell before he does). He still needs to control the FB better but I am hoping the father he gets from the TJ surgery the more that becomes a reality.
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Post by mgoetze on Aug 3, 2014 13:26:35 GMT -5
I still think Workman is a starter but not for us... he should be traded to a poorer team that needs a cost-controlled #4/#5 starter in the offseason.
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Post by oilcansman on Aug 3, 2014 13:44:45 GMT -5
There's a certain urban legend quality to the "tons of pitching" prospects we have been reading about for YEARS. I want it to be true but none are eye openers, other than Rubby possibly in the bullpen. That could be a really good spot for the Sox. Extremely disappointed with Webster. The kid has NO presence and can't throw strikes. Lousy makeup. Not sure why people hype him after what he's done last year and this year in Boston.
I never saw Ranaudo pith before Friday. Nice story but really average stuff. A major league pitcher, yes, but he doesn't have an out pitch. At least Rubby has a good change up. In my mind we are down to Owens and Johnson. If one becomes a top of the rotation pitcher, all this was worth it, because a home grown top of the rotation pitcher in a market like Boston is gold.
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Post by jdb on Aug 3, 2014 16:32:06 GMT -5
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Post by taftreign on Aug 3, 2014 21:43:20 GMT -5
Going off the possibility Lester is resigned as the #1 I would put my top two of that group as Cueto and Zimmerman. I feel very comfortable with Cueto or Zimmerman as a #2. All three are FAs after the end of the 2015 season. I would assume Cueto is the hardest get and the most likely extended with their current team but both would cost less prospects than Hamels. I'd consider Zimmerman the most probable as Washington is fairly stacked in pitching depth with Strasburg, Gonzalez, Fister and Roarke with Cole almost ready to take a roster spot and Gioloto only a few years away. Zimmermans salary jumps to 16.5 mil next year before free agency. I think you could get Zimmerman on a 5 year extension with the possibility of going 6 as he is a young 28 year old and he has solid interleague numbers including against the AL East. Trade for him and extend a 5 and 105 or 6 and 120. Spitballing here but maybe a Marrero (SS or 2B option) and a AA or AAA arm like Ranaudo or Escobar. Maybe a C prospect added in. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by SoxInTx on Aug 3, 2014 22:09:13 GMT -5
I am fine with Sox doing auditions the rest of 2014. I would also feel comfortable with a rotation next year that is #1 FA/Lester/Zimmerman #2 Bucholz #3 Kelly #4 RDLR #5 Webster/Ranaudo/Workman
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Post by jmei on Aug 4, 2014 7:27:35 GMT -5
The targeting of offensive talent during this past trade deadline really took considerable foresight on the front office's part. The position player free agent/trade crop really looks very weak, especially in terms of outfielders, while it looks like there will be a wealth of front-end starting pitching options.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 4, 2014 7:28:54 GMT -5
My rotation going forward was strictly for this year. It's impossible to figure anything beyond that.
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Post by artfuldodger on Aug 4, 2014 7:37:17 GMT -5
Should the Red Sox pursue Masterson this offseason? What would be the price tag? We know the Cardinals can not offer a qualifying offer and are unlikely to seek to resign him with the quantity of pitchers they have.
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Post by amfox1 on Aug 4, 2014 7:54:53 GMT -5
I consolidated a couple of threads into this one to discuss the current and potential 2015 pitching staffs. As per our policy, proposed traded belong in the trade proposal thread and not on the main board.
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Post by raftsox on Aug 4, 2014 9:53:37 GMT -5
I bet we will be all in on Masterson this winter for many reasons. But the one that is the strongest..... no draft pick. Probably true, and possibly the worst reason to be "in on" a player. I am fervently hoping we stay far away from Masterson. The rotation needs an above average arm, not another mid-rotation starter.
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Post by semperfisox on Aug 4, 2014 10:05:58 GMT -5
with the amount of $ and good prospects we have, there is no excuse not to go into 2015 with a #1 ace.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Aug 4, 2014 10:47:29 GMT -5
Some random thoughts on the pitchers.
I think they should try Webster in relief, rather than as a starter. With shorter stints he might be able to dial it up a bit.
I cannot think of an excuse for a veteran pitcher like Buchholz to be so inconsistent in his pitching motion as he was last night. He was all over the mound. Sometimes he had a follow through, sometimes he was just winging the ball and falling off the left. Sometimes he didn't bend his back. It really looked amateurish, like he was just learning to pitch. I am not optimistic about his future with the Sox.
With Rodriguez's performance yesterday, it appears the Sox do have three superior LH prospects. It will be very interesting to see how Owens does tonight. These fellows may leapfrog some of the pitchers at Pawtucket and with the Sox.
I like Rubby's chances of sticking in the rotation. He has really improved this year.
Workman may be better suited to relief, but I think he will get extended time as a starter just because he is so consistent.
I didn't see Ranaudo, but based on his improving record this season, and what seemed like a good showing in his first MLB start, I think he may stick as well. I hope the Sox get him back up soon.
And I would like to see Wright get a start. His record at Pawtucket cannot be ignored, and Vazguez can catch him.
And on that subject, Vazguez is making a serious bid to remain the starting catcher. He is the best catcher the Sox have had in a while.
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Post by pedey on Aug 4, 2014 10:54:15 GMT -5
It's sad how bad Buchholz has been this year. Is he still battling an injury? Until last years injury, he was well on his way to being the Cy Young award winner. I don't see the Sox picking up his 2016 option after next season unless he has a serious rebound. Hopefully he does.
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Post by elguapo on Aug 4, 2014 11:05:16 GMT -5
Given that we will add 1-2 starters in the offseason:
1. Along with Buchholz & Kelly, there is only room for 1-2 internal young pitchers in the rotation. Assuming Rubby De La Rosa is one of them, there is only room for 0-1 additional internal young starter.
2. Young pitchers struggle sometimes. (So do old pitchers and Buchholzes in their prime.) That's baseball. It's not the end of the world, and we will have AAA depth if the struggles require demotion.
3. Assuming we keep many of our starting prospects, some will pitch in the bullpen next season. A relatively low cost bullpen (say, if Uehara is the only major signing) means more cost can be allocation to the rotation. Or vice versa.
4. Again on the $ front - with an excess of bodies, at least, and many trade chips, there are many avenues to arrive at a good rotation without paying free agent level salary. Combined with the ~$55M we have to spend, and I don't see the luxury cap as a meaningful obstacle this offseason. (Obviously it would be if every perceived need were addressed via free agency - sign Lester & Masterson for the rotation, plus Uehara, Miller, and Sandoval! No, I don't think so, not without creativity in other moves.)
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Post by terriblehondo on Aug 4, 2014 11:50:19 GMT -5
There is no way that I would count on Clay as part of the rotation next year. If he is healthy and pitching well in Spring let him into the rotation. But do not just give him a spot because of what he could be. Make him earn it. To me he is like a kid that you love but has screwed you one to many times.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Aug 4, 2014 12:23:12 GMT -5
Why is there so much interest in signing Masterson? He is not the pitcher he was a couple of years ago. He is a back of the rotation guy now and the Sox have plenty of options there. Yes, he is a very likable guy who the Sox probably should not have traded. But the value they lost isn't there now.
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Post by elguapo on Aug 4, 2014 12:31:11 GMT -5
Why is there so much interest in signing Masterson? He is not the pitcher he was a couple of years ago. He is a back of the rotation guy now and the Sox have plenty of options there. . FIP by year since becoming a full time starter: 3.93 3.28 4.16 3.35 4.04 ERA+: 84 122 79 110 67 He's alternated very good and decent or mediocre/poor years, underperforming his FIP in the down years. He was very good just last season, and could represent a free agent bargain. Unless you think he's washed up at 29, he likely has some productive years ahead.
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Post by dominicansoxfan on Aug 4, 2014 12:33:06 GMT -5
When is Buchholz going to return to his previous delivery? He is afraid it will injure his arm which will be bad for his career, but with the way he is pitching he will not have a career!
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 4, 2014 12:37:22 GMT -5
Perfect example of how fWAR for pitchers isn't good. Buchholz has 0.7 fWAR this year. He has -1.9 bWAR. Which sounds more realistic?
Also, it's ironic that this has been one of Buchholz' most healthy years, especially if you believe as I do that he wasn't even hurt while on the DL.
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Post by MLBDreams on Aug 4, 2014 12:44:33 GMT -5
What the FO & owners (with their blessings) did with the RS starter rotation is insane. As a lifelong 38 yr as the RS fan, I never seen they blow up almost entire rotation (4 of 5) after they won the World Series from previous season. They made right call on Jake Peavy & Felix Doubront for trade but our #1 & #2 starters due to upcoming FA & favorable minimum contract.
The Detroit Tigers are outstanding with all 5 starters now with additional of David Price, LA Dodgers are excellent with Kershaw, Greinke & Ryu as their first three in order, SF and STL made the playoffs & won the WS with their rotations before. They're not going blow up the entire rotation anytime (let's say 3-4 pitchers) if they fail to make it playoffs or not winning the WS anytime.
Would you love to see any team blow up their rotation if they fail? I doubt it. It's hard to believe it's Red Sox FO did it. It's impossible task for them to bring on #1 Ace & very good #2 starter and light out LH reliever. I'd love to bring back Jon Lester & Andrew Miller to Boston again.
1-By FA, Lester (preferable) 2-By FA or trade, please find him! 3-Buchholz [don't know which Clay show up (good or ugly)] 4-Kelly 5-Whomever wins competition from ST: RDLR, Owens, Renaudo
Closer- Uehara LH- Miller RH set up- Tazawa RH-Workman (with spot starter for injury starter) Rest of relievers: TBD, the FO should be better job of finding them!
I'd like to see them go: Breslow, Badenhop & Mujica. Not worth headaches. Allen Webster need to continue work on his issues (gopherball-last yr, walks-this yr) by stay around AAA level. If Clay stay awful in 2015, please get rid of him so quickly!!!
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 4, 2014 12:46:38 GMT -5
Consider that there is tons of free agent pitching available this winter and almost no hitting. Ben was looking towards November.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 4, 2014 12:46:54 GMT -5
Perfect example of how fWAR for pitchers isn't good. Buchholz has 0.7 fWAR this year. He has -1.9 bWAR. Which sounds more realistic? Also, it's ironic that this has been one of Buchholz' most healthy years, especially if you believe as I do that he wasn't even hurt while on the DL.You're right. Where's Jeff Gillooly when you need him?
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Post by Guidas on Aug 4, 2014 12:54:05 GMT -5
I would reiterate that, if the Front Office/Ownership decides to bite their tongues and sign a pitcher to a deal of 5 years or more I would sign Scherzer but give him the out clause after year 3. 1) In any deal of that length or longer you're banking on relative health. It's a given no matter what happens. 2) By turning down Det's $144M for 6yrs offer it's obvious this guy is all about the cash. If he is healthy and performing - which is what you bank on in the first 3 years of his contract - and if the inflation rate paid to top free agents holds, he'll opt out figuring he can get a 4 year deal for more. The Sox could then walk away, taking the QO (if it still exists) or even no compensation other than his service (assumedly at a high level) for those first 3 years. If he blows up you're stuck with him anyway (which is the sword of Damocles in any long term deal).
Again, this is predicated solely on ownership changing course and making the decision to go more than 4 years on any of the current free agent pitchers. At that point they are committed to the potential sunk cost that comes with an injury anyway. The opt-out would be a nice carrot for a Boras client at equal money to other offers.
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