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6/29-7/2 Red Sox @ Blue Jays Series Thread
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jul 1, 2015 14:50:09 GMT -5
And if he pitched like he did in Detroit (there is/was no reason to believe he wouldn't), he'd be worth the contract. So why wait to see? Just pay the man. What is so hard to understand about this? Red Sox mgt. placed their bet early, exchanging additional information for a cost controlled salary now that they felt comfortable with. Isn't this the inverse of the Jon Lester situation: on that one they were criticized for waiting too long to get serious about an offer. Seems to me they fully understand what they're doing.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jul 1, 2015 14:58:58 GMT -5
And if he pitched like he did in Detroit (there is/was no reason to believe he wouldn't), he'd be worth the contract. So why wait to see? Just pay the man. Part of the extension was because they didn't want to bid on an open market on a 26 year old well established starting pitcher, part of it was they thought he was going to perform better as he entered "the prime pitching age", and part of it was paying a higher AAV for a shorter contract.
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Post by charliezink16 on Jul 1, 2015 15:14:43 GMT -5
So why wait to see? Just pay the man. Part of the extension was because they didn't want to bid on an open market on a 26 year old well established starting pitcher, part of it was they thought he was going to perform better as he entered "the prime pitching age", and part of it was paying a higher AAV for a shorter contract. Not doubting you, rather asking those on this board but is this entirely accurate? I don't feel that pitchers follow the same curve as hitters in terms of prime years. I feel that if you have great stuff you can peak at an early age whereas for hitters you follow a developmental curve that creates the age 27-29 prime years. I remember fenwaythehardway would always point to something along the lines of this when people said "Doubront will be a top of the rotation guy by age 28".
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 1, 2015 15:40:11 GMT -5
Guys, this is clearly the Julio Lugo curse in action. We must warn Shaughnessy!
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Post by charliezink16 on Jul 1, 2015 15:49:06 GMT -5
The book on this Aro guy should be "pounds the strike zone with mediocre stuff", right? Good stuff with zero command of his pitches I'd say.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 1, 2015 15:50:08 GMT -5
Farrell apparently mentioned afterwards that because of off days they can skip Porcello's next start. They can actually push him off until after the All-Star Break because of the two off-days next week. So in theory, they could DL him and replace him with a fourth bench player rather than another starter, as the club doesn't need a fifth starter until July 21.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jul 1, 2015 16:03:58 GMT -5
You know it's a bad year when the debates are about how bad the players are over how bad is the worst they should have been expected to be.
Some good news from the game.
I didn't see Hanley run into anything.
I was able to avoid all of Leon's abs. Still a fairly quick game considering.
No reports of injury to the fans from all the rockets the Jays hit.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 1, 2015 16:09:32 GMT -5
Farrell apparently mentioned afterwards that because of off days they can skip Porcello's next start. They can actually push him off until after the All-Star Break because of the two off-days next week. So in theory, they could DL him and replace him with a fourth bench player rather than another starter, as the club doesn't need a fifth starter until July 21. Apparently Hanigan wasn't activated today because of travel issues - didn't get to the park until 11 a.m. and they didn't want to force him into the lineup. Could very well DL Porcello tomorrow as the countermove and keep three catchers for a bit, if they wanted. I'm not sure why you wouldn't just make a call, unless you just want to make sure Hanigan is indeed healthy before losing either Leon or Swihart.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jul 1, 2015 16:31:20 GMT -5
At this point, anyone arguing that the Porcello extension was a good one is just attempting to play the alpha dog in the debate. His future performance aside, there can be no equivocation, not letting him play for his free agent contract was a mistake.
Even he turned it around, it still wouldn't change the calculus, he should have been made to prove his worth for that kind of money.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 1, 2015 16:41:44 GMT -5
At this point, anyone arguing that the Porcello extension was a good one is just attempting to play the alpha dog in the debate. His future performance aside, there can be no equivocation, not letting him play for his free agent contract was a mistake. Even he turned it around, it still wouldn't change the calculus, he should have been made to prove his worth for that kind of money. He played for that money in Detroit. Just because it didn't work out, doesn't mean it wasn't a good move when it was done. It's exactly like the Lester situation in reverse, as stated above. If the Sox extended Lester for 4/75 last spring and he had another 2012, he wouldn't be worth anything close to the 4/75 that everyone said was such an insulting lowball offer. Porcello never was anywhere close to this bad and there's really no good explanation that should have been seen before the season. And if he just duplicated the performance he had every year until this one, the contract would be fair and it would end when he's 30, which is exactly what they wanted.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 1, 2015 16:43:46 GMT -5
So why wait to see? Just pay the man. What is so hard to understand about this? Red Sox mgt. placed their bet early, exchanging additional information for a cost controlled salary now that they felt comfortable with. Isn't this the inverse of the Jon Lester situation: on that one they were criticized for waiting too long to get serious about an offer. Seems to me they fully understand what they're doing. Oh I understand it well. I just didn't agree with it at all.
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Post by p23w on Jul 1, 2015 17:30:26 GMT -5
My .02 with respect to Porcello. I was bullish on trading for him from well before they acquired him. That said he has pitched badly in a Red Sox uni. 2015 aside, the man does have a decent track record. I still believe he will pitch well (better than he has to date this year). I am also of the opinion that he needs a first class defense to maximize his skill set. The Sox defense has not played well this year, nor has Porcello's "Stuff" bitten down in the zone as it has in the past. What I think we are seeing is a worst case scenario for the RS and Rick Porcello. There is also the matter of a bullpen which is not up to playoff standards IMHO. I can't comment on the contract other than to say, the RS spent a boatload on two cubans without MLB experience and since it's their money (investment), it's their responsibility to ride it out. It is painful, as a fan to watch Porcello struggle, Castillo inconsistently flash his skill set and Monada struggle. I can be patient with Yoan, but I am downright frustrated at the MLB level by the performance to date of both Porcello and Castillo. My only consolation is that this front office strategy is a work in progress. This cognitive rationalization does not alleviate the frustration of watching this team or perusing the box scores. Being a RS fan is like taking an old fashion marriage vow. I know, I'm a "til death do us part" Red Sox fan. As in a relationship, some years are not so good, some slumps can extend for years, but the bliss of a pennant and a world series is akin to a honeymoon all over again. Sorry there are no statistics to back my thoughts up.... I am also from the school that believes that figures don't lie, but liars can figure. You can make numbers say just about anything you want, but if your premise is flawed your machinations are for naught.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jul 1, 2015 17:35:33 GMT -5
Our defense has nothing to do with him giving up a huge number of HRs. He has lost command of his pitches and is leaving everything up, and doesn't have the stuff to do that. He should be living by his command, not dying by it.
It's best for him to not pitch until after the all star break. Figure out what he's doing wrong outside of live games, or on a rehab assignment.
Still, giving up on Porcello is beyond shortsighted. He's more than likely going to be fine, but he has some adjustments to make. I hope he does before the pink hats go insane.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jul 1, 2015 17:51:45 GMT -5
Glad I missed today's game.
Screw Porcello. That guy is stealing money.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 1, 2015 17:56:41 GMT -5
Glad I missed the debacle. I'll save Mgoetze the time. Have to like the 13.5/k rate today, eh? And, zero walks?? Sign me up for four more years of that! Darn, ball over the wall bad luck bit him again. Maybe, he'll be a little luckier against the Marlins.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jul 1, 2015 18:41:03 GMT -5
He played for that money in Detroit. Just because it didn't work out, doesn't mean it wasn't a good move when it was done. It's exactly like the Lester situation in reverse, as stated above. If the Sox extended Lester for 4/75 last spring and he had another 2012, he wouldn't be worth anything close to the 4/75 that everyone said was such an insulting lowball offer. Porcello never was anywhere close to this bad and there's really no good explanation that should have been seen before the season. And if he just duplicated the performance he had every year until this one, the contract would be fair and it would end when he's 30, which is exactly what they wanted. This will the first year paying $12.5, but your right he has played for good money before. I am not really trying to debate how much money the guy is/was worth. It will take time to come to that conclusion, as you pointed out. However, the only risk they faced with him, was he was so good that he would have been the top free agent this coming year, or he may have blown up him market, any number of reasons where the sox may have had to pay more money or years. What was the risk of that given his past performance and pedigree? I just don't see it. You have to be willing to stare down the barrel of the gun, just as you are willing to pull the trigger. Waiting this year should have been chosen as the proper course of action.
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Post by tomhouse on Jul 1, 2015 19:12:03 GMT -5
If there was ever a guy who should donate to SoxProspects, it's RP.
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TX
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Post by TX on Jul 1, 2015 21:24:16 GMT -5
Eat the contract and send him to Siberia. Then fire Ben.
See? easy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 21:50:10 GMT -5
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 1, 2015 21:57:36 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me what Craig Breslow's role on this team is? 8.1 IP in May, 6.2 IP in June, none today... you'd think he's a LOOGY. But then on the season he's faced 76 RHB and 45 LHB.
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Post by bookiemetts on Jul 1, 2015 22:45:00 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me what Craig Breslow's role on this team is? 8.1 IP in May, 6.2 IP in June, none today... you'd think he's a LOOGY. But then on the season he's faced 76 RHB and 45 LHB. He didn't even get in the game today. Got a lot of "mop up" relievers on the team lol.
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Post by bluechip on Jul 2, 2015 2:26:24 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me what Craig Breslow's role on this team is? 8.1 IP in May, 6.2 IP in June, none today... you'd think he's a LOOGY. But then on the season he's faced 76 RHB and 45 LHB. It's easy to forget he is even on the team, so I am guessing Farrell has forgotten.
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 2, 2015 2:49:04 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me what Craig Breslow's role on this team is? 8.1 IP in May, 6.2 IP in June, none today... you'd think he's a LOOGY. But then on the season he's faced 76 RHB and 45 LHB. It's easy to forget he is even on the team, so I am guessing Farrell has forgotten. I remember it every time I notice we only have one non-catcher available on the bench to pinch hit etc.
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Post by okin15 on Jul 2, 2015 3:03:09 GMT -5
So why wait to see? Just pay the man. Part of the extension was because they didn't want to bid on an open market on a 26 year old well established starting pitcher, part of it was they thought he was going to perform better as he entered "the prime pitching age", and part of it was paying a higher AAV for a shorter contract. Only part of the extension I didn't get was the goal of the shorter contract. If you're going to give a guy $82+ million, why wouldn't you feel even better about say $85 million over 5 years, or $95 over six years? Mostly cause it gives you more insurance in case he's hurt one year. But in light of recent events, I guess we should be happy I'm not managing the budget. I still have to think he'll regain his old form. It's not like he's lost velocity, or has the yips and is just unglued. He's just not pitching well or executing. These are things that have happened before to guys, especially when they're pressing, and they have sometimes come back and pitched very well after some rest, rehab, etc. I guess it's unlikely that he becomes the better pitcher we hoped he would though.
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Post by chud on Jul 2, 2015 5:16:39 GMT -5
Whether it's the bats or the starting pitchers, it's not happening this year because this may be the least consistent team the Sox have fielded since their successful run started in the early 2000s...we can see the potential on any given night, but for the love of god, there's zero ability to keep the stretch going which they would need to do to contend...And it's not just losing, it usually ends with the Sox getting 2 hit, or one of their SP's getting shelled and not completing 4 innings...it's so odd...but seriously, all the more reason not to get wrapped up in 2 wins in a row or winning 3 of 5...as they seriously just cannot sustain it...and my personal opinion is, if they were losing games 4 to 3, that would be one thing, but i'd imagine those 3 inning starts w/ the SP's give up 5 runs get pulled fell like 10 loses in a row to the players
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