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Post by tonyc on Sept 4, 2015 23:33:53 GMT -5
Yes Steve, Lynn had a strong home split, but interestingly he and Rice were never the same after that '79 season (granted Rice had '84) and I suspect injuries in both cases..wonder if anyone here can confirm? Rice's early trajectory and all the comments- Aaron feeling he was the most likely to catch him in homers, etc- very good career, but early on he was projecting Frank Robinson.
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Post by tonyc on Sept 4, 2015 23:37:18 GMT -5
By the way, the best R.S. centerfielder then may not have been Lynn but Rick Miller- was a backup, did win a gold glove, and for those playing Strato matic back then was one of the only outfielders to rate a "1" at all three positions, just about ever!
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Post by tonyc on Sept 4, 2015 23:43:56 GMT -5
But greatest defensive sox ever? Not even close- too bad he couldn't hit enogh to start, but Donnie Sadler could play every infield (except first) and outfield position at a gold glove level- I can't think of anyone in history like him other than Honus Wagner- who did play every position incredibly well, before he was signed.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Sept 5, 2015 3:13:30 GMT -5
Donnie Sadler had gold glove potential because of his quickness but I don't think he ever actually played at a gold glove level in terms of the concentration and reliability that comes with experience
After Fred Lynn gained weight throughlifting before his amazing 1979 the Gammons version of his story was that he didn't feel like working out that fanatically after that one season and was content to be leaner and less strong. Whether chemicals were involved who can say?
JBJ does not remind me of Lynn because although Lynn did not have a base stealers quickness, his top gliding speed once he got going was very very fast. He beat Lynn Swann in the Superstars 200 meters. Smooth, elegant, seemed taller and longer legged than his 6 1
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Post by m1keyboots on Sept 5, 2015 5:45:06 GMT -5
I honestly think we have 2 center fielders better than BB at the MLB level. Mooks rounding into above average to plus and JBJ as plus plus. I don't think Benintendis arm although accurate wouldn't play as well in right. Imagine the return on Rusney/Margot/Guerra and others of the like. We shouldn't keep everyone if a team makes thr right offer. Xander won me over this year by being solid and going with pitches. Also, recognizing 50% more sliders. If he never develope more than 15 hr power I can dig it. Make a move, the offense seems to be fixing itself without Pedey, the staff is rounding into form, but the although I love Layne, he should be the end of our pen with barnes. Koji can't be a two pitch pitching mark beurhle and taz is 7,8 imo. Get Elite arms, with the value we have in the minors
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Post by tonyc on Sept 5, 2015 12:31:14 GMT -5
Jimoh thanks for the clarification on Lynn's weighlifting, that might explain the decline. Know anything about Rice? Yes I remember that event with Swann, though it did take Lynn a while to get going- he was only a 1-15 in Strat-o matic- just above average, but not real fast. As for Donnie Sadler for sure, he never hit well enough to get the consistent reps in fielding. But boy, his quickness was incredible, his range beyond anyone's- he was the second fastest runner in the league only behind a Texas outfielder, and he had a cannon that played well in the outfield or shortstop. Nice to see someone else remember him, he does deserve tribute for unique skills!
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Post by tonyc on Sept 5, 2015 12:45:06 GMT -5
Regarding Benintendi, isn't it interesting that there was just a post that his swing seems to have a disconnect to the shocking distance the ball ends up with. This is coincidentally parallel to the recent reports of Espinoza having a unique ease of motion resulting in outrageous velocity. And both players achieving such power with small frames. This would seem to point to two different phenomena- One, the unique emphasis in baseball on not just the speed/power of other sports, but minute precison- the hand/eye of a Dustin Pedroia- whom that scout cited as a comp for Andrew, and the exact mechanics to optimize pitching velocity. But there may be a seccond factor at play, and I'd like for Telson and his Orthopaedic expertise to chime in; I remember reading some time ago about different character within muscle itself. Some types would be stronger/denser for its given weight than others. This may also perhaps explain these two young players, and going back a few others: Ron Guidry was listed close to 165 lbs but threw 98 mph and could bench close to 300! Bobby Orr was 185 lbs but had one of the hardest shots, and knocked over players far larger. Anyone watching football has seen powerful running backs around 200 lbs collide with defensive lineman 300 lbs, resulting in a wash.
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Post by brnichols19873 on Sept 6, 2015 21:39:03 GMT -5
Red Sox Prospect Andrew Benintendi:
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Post by humanbeingbean on Sept 6, 2015 23:05:10 GMT -5
Red Sox Prospect Andrew Benintendi: That slow-mo HR swing is a thing of beauty.
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Post by telson13 on Sept 6, 2015 23:41:50 GMT -5
Regarding Benintendi, isn't it interesting that there was just a post that his swing seems to have a disconnect to the shocking distance the ball ends up with. This is coincidentally parallel to the recent reports of Espinoza having a unique ease of motion resulting in outrageous velocity. And both players achieving such power with small frames. This would seem to point to two different phenomena- One, the unique emphasis in baseball on not just the speed/power of other sports, but minute precison- the hand/eye of a Dustin Pedroia- whom that scout cited as a comp for Andrew, and the exact mechanics to optimize pitching velocity. But there may be a seccond factor at play, and I'd like for Telson and his Orthopaedic expertise to chime in; I remember reading some time ago about different character within muscle itself. Some types would be stronger/denser for its given weight than others. This may also perhaps explain these two young players, and going back a few others: Ron Guidry was listed close to 165 lbs but threw 98 mph and could bench close to 300! Bobby Orr was 185 lbs but had one of the hardest shots, and knocked over players far larger. Anyone watching football has seen powerful running backs around 200 lbs collide with defensive lineman 300 lbs, resulting in a wash. Tony, a lot of it is simply biomechanics and kinesthetic awareness...meaning, some peoples' nervous systems (cortex, the part of the brain that plans and potentiates movement, basal ganglia that modulate signals from the cortex to "fine tune" it, cerebellum, which is involved in balance/equilibrium/ movement "coordination", and a bunch of other non-conscious "stuff", spinal cord (which senses tendon and muscle tension and modulates signals to prevent overstretch), and peripheral nerves, which send out or receive signals) are just finely tuned both naturally and through repetition. The simplest example of kinesthetic awareness I can think of is a gymnast or wrestler...someone who has multiple forces acting on their bodies at different places, whose brains can process and integrate all of that information and send just the right amount of output that the person can respond to those inputs with lightning rapidity and make minute--and correct--adjustments. Maybe an even simpler example is slipping on ice...some people fall on their *ss, some just seem to go through amazing contortions but stay upright. The Sox do some neural testing to look at reaction times, task switching, etc, but there's a lot more to it. Beyond that, there are sensory systems we don't fully understand...for example, there's (legitimate) video of a man trained in bushido who can cut a plastic pellet in half when it's fired from a pellet gun (200-300 feet per second, or over 120-180 mph roughly) 50 feet away. The known pathway for vision-visual cortex-cortex-BG-spinal cord-motor neuron (plus other assorted modulating pathways) requires at least a quarter second, and probably more like a half. The pellet should be past him already...so he's using some completely unknown higher level pathway. So that part explains the guys (like Ted Williams) who are just insanely fluid with preternatural hand-eye and body control. Another thing to consider are muscle fibers themselves (fast and slow-twitch, which use the same basic machinery but different architecture and different rates of energy consumption/production). Fast twitch is explosive power, slow is endurance. Individual people also have all sorts of (usually minor) differences based on genetics as far as the many proteins involved in energy generation, usage, muscle fiber composition, etc. A simple example is myostatin, which curbs muscle growth (too much muscle is not always good, and it takes a lot of energy to make, repair, and maintain...not good if you need to hunt for your food). If you've ever seen a whippet (the dog), it's like a small greyhound. Whippets have a deficiency in the myostatin gene. They have one normal copy and one defective one. If two of these are bred, half the offspring have the "normal" 1:1 ratio, and are fast, muscular, and lean. If they get two functional myostatin genes (25% of the time), their muscle grow is inhibited and they're flaccid, weak, and floppy. If they get two *abnormal* genes, they're "bully whippets"...they are absolute muscle-bound freaks despite not being able to get much exercise at all (they overheat). I don't have a pic, but it's worth googling. The Begian Blue Ox (from which Paul Bunyan's "Babe" was derived) is a cattle breed with the same "bully" type. A last issue is skeletal architecture. Any time you flex or extend one muscle group, another has to relax to make the movement fluid (and efficient...think back to the first paragraph). BUT, those movements and the forces generated are a series of levers. So, for example, in a circular motion (throwing a baseball, roughly), velocity perpendicular to the circle (the released baseball) is determined by the radius of the circle, and the *angular velocity* (how quickly the arm is rotating through the motion, like a hand on a clock). Longer arms and stronger, more elastic tendons and ligaments (along with the points at which they attach) allow greater angular velocity, along with muscle strength (to initiate and accelerate through the movement). I mention tendon attachment for one other reason...because it's potentially more important than muscle strength, and probably gets to the heart of your question. Imagine a heavy board on the floor at your feet, one end at your toes and the other several feet away. If you bend at the waist with your feet on the end near you, and try to pick up the **far** end, it's really hard. But if you attach a string halfway (or more) down the board, it's a lot easier. A tendon serves the same purpose...muscle flexes, and tendon transfers that force to the bone, and the bone (and limb) move. A person whose tendon attaches slightly farther down the bone can get the same force at the far end of the limb with much less "strength" in the muscle itself. This is probably where "wiry" strength comes from: lots of fast-twitch, explosive power muscle fibers and advantageous tendon insertion points. It's what makes a 150-lb chimpanzee two or three times as "strong" as a 250-lb man, even though the man has a lot more muscle mass. It's probably also where guys like Mookie, Benintendi (who's pretty jacked, though), Guidry, Nomar, etc. get their surprising strength.
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Post by telson13 on Sept 6, 2015 23:48:24 GMT -5
I forgot to include Eric Davis in that list. He was not a big guy at all (something like 5'11, 175 if even) but he absolutely **destroyed** the ball. He didn't have the great hand-eye, but it was good enough, and when he connected it was shocking. He looked so skinny but he crushed his HR.
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Post by telson13 on Sept 6, 2015 23:57:31 GMT -5
I will also say, Benintendi has superstar written all over him from my perspective. He works hard, but he's naturally gifted in probably most, if not all, of the ways I mentioned. He's pretty muscular, so I'm not sure he gets much stronger, but he's so fluid with his swing, and so quick and linear to the ball...I think the "55s-60s" he got on his hit tool were gross underestimations. He looks like a future batting title winner to me. And I can see him hitting 20-25 HR regularly. His last HR was on 95 in, and it was a no-doubter. If he can handle the cheese, the rest is just pitch recognition and barreling up the ball, both of which he seems to have no problem with. I'd love to see Eric break down his performance post-wood-bat adjustment (first week or so with all of those IFFBs in Lowell). It's gotta be just stupid good.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 7, 2015 0:36:36 GMT -5
I will also say, Benintendi has superstar written all over him from my perspective. He works hard, but he's naturally gifted in probably most, if not all, of the ways I mentioned. He's pretty muscular, so I'm not sure he gets much stronger, but he's so fluid with his swing, and so quick and linear to the ball...I think the "55s-60s" he got on his hit tool were gross underestimations. He looks like a future batting title winner to me. And I can see him hitting 20-25 HR regularly. His last HR was on 95 in, and it was a no-doubter. If he can handle the cheese, the rest is just pitch recognition and barreling up the ball, both of which he seems to have no problem with. I'd love to see Eric break down his performance post-wood-bat adjustment (first week or so with all of those IFFBs in Lowell). It's gotta be just stupid good. I'm sitting on a set of Davenport Translations which show that Benintendi's easily having the best debut season of any college hitter (excluding SS, 2B, C, not that you'd expect any of those guys to be rivals, but I should probably look them up) drafted 5-10 going back to 1995. The guys on the list are Michael Choice, Ryan Braun, Mark Kotsay, Yonder Alonso, Matt LaPorta, Carlos Pena, Anthony Rendon, Chad Green, Colin Moran, Geoff Jenkins, Drew Stubbs, and Todd Helton. (Teixeira didn't play the year he was drafted.) I'll post them when the season is over. I forgot about his rough first 8 games. Since then he's .339 / .429 / .607 in 198 PA, including .366 / .439 / .606 in Greenville.
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 7, 2015 8:09:44 GMT -5
I will also say, Benintendi has superstar written all over him from my perspective. He works hard, but he's naturally gifted in probably most, if not all, of the ways I mentioned. He's pretty muscular, so I'm not sure he gets much stronger, but he's so fluid with his swing, and so quick and linear to the ball...I think the "55s-60s" he got on his hit tool were gross underestimations. He looks like a future batting title winner to me. And I can see him hitting 20-25 HR regularly. His last HR was on 95 in, and it was a no-doubter. If he can handle the cheese, the rest is just pitch recognition and barreling up the ball, both of which he seems to have no problem with. I'd love to see Eric break down his performance post-wood-bat adjustment (first week or so with all of those IFFBs in Lowell). It's gotta be just stupid good. Wow. I really like your assessment over several posts. You're right on Williams too. He was liquid smooth with his swing.
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Post by raindelay on Sept 7, 2015 8:48:51 GMT -5
This is a bit out of "right field", but looking at AB, his stature and his swing, he reminds me, somewhat, of the late Bobby Murcer. I don't think AB is any more than 5'9". He looks a bit taller than Pedroia, but a smooth, uncomplicated swing.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 7, 2015 10:35:06 GMT -5
His weight is perfectly balanced and his hands are perfectly still when he's ready to start his swing. That has always been my favorite style of hitting. So many other players have their hands and arms moving all over the place and it tends to lead to a lot more slumps when the timing gets off. I bet Benintendi will not have much of a slumping problem because of how quiet his swing is.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 7, 2015 10:38:40 GMT -5
Great extension on that swing.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Sept 7, 2015 10:40:19 GMT -5
Really want to hear Kiley's take on him.
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Post by beantown on Sept 7, 2015 11:09:06 GMT -5
His weight is perfectly balanced and his hands are perfectly still when he's ready to start his swing. That has always been my favorite style of hitting. So many other players have their hands and arms moving all over the place and it tends to lead to a lot more slumps when the timing gets off. I bet Benintendi will not have much of a slumping problem because of how quiet his swing is. That's what I love about moncada's swing as well. Silent as a crypt
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Post by tonyc on Sept 7, 2015 11:32:53 GMT -5
Thanks Telson, quite comprehensive. I imagine the torque generated from the more advantageous tendon attachements may also explain why so many of the top outfield throwing arms have tended to be from the somewhat muscular, but wiry and not bulky highly muscular frames. A sampling of some of the top outfield arms of the 1970s - Reggie Smith, Ellis Valentine, Dave Parker, Cesar Geronimo, Roberto Clemente, Carl Yastrzemski, Dwight Evans, Rusty Staub, and just prior Willie Mays and Hank Aaron, and just after Jesse Barfield. Note that almost all these players had frames of approximately 6" 180 lbs.. just Evans and perhaps Valentine were heavier but also taller. The only bulky frame in the bunch was Parker, at 238, though he had a 6'5" frame.
So it would seem that with the players checking your above skillsets to an exceptional degree, our attempts at projecting their power and velocity based upon size will be inaccurate, and we'll have to go more on the scouting reports of the actual in game performance.
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danr
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Post by danr on Sept 7, 2015 11:58:15 GMT -5
Thanks Telson. That post told me more than I ever knew and explained so much. I'm awed. And tonyc is right. Every scout should read that post.
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Post by telson13 on Sept 7, 2015 12:02:00 GMT -5
I will also say, Benintendi has superstar written all over him from my perspective. He works hard, but he's naturally gifted in probably most, if not all, of the ways I mentioned. He's pretty muscular, so I'm not sure he gets much stronger, but he's so fluid with his swing, and so quick and linear to the ball...I think the "55s-60s" he got on his hit tool were gross underestimations. He looks like a future batting title winner to me. And I can see him hitting 20-25 HR regularly. His last HR was on 95 in, and it was a no-doubter. If he can handle the cheese, the rest is just pitch recognition and barreling up the ball, both of which he seems to have no problem with. I'd love to see Eric break down his performance post-wood-bat adjustment (first week or so with all of those IFFBs in Lowell). It's gotta be just stupid good. I'm sitting on a set of Davenport Translations which show that Benintendi's easily having the best debut season of any college hitter (excluding SS, 2B, C, not that you'd expect any of those guys to be rivals, but I should probably look them up) drafted 5-10 going back to 1995. The guys on the list are Michael Choice, Ryan Braun, Mark Kotsay, Yonder Alonso, Matt LaPorta, Carlos Pena, Anthony Rendon, Chad Green, Colin Moran, Geoff Jenkins, Drew Stubbs, and Todd Helton. (Teixeira didn't play the year he was drafted.) I'll post them when the season is over. I forgot about his rough first 8 games. Since then he's .339 / .429 / .607 in 198 PA, including .366 / .439 / .606 in Greenville. Wow...that's quite a list. And that .339/.429/.607 line in almost 200 PAs is ludicrous. I've gotta think he's easily in AA by the middle of next year and maybe getting a cup of coffee or more by late August. He just seems way too advanced for Lowell/Greenville.
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Post by telson13 on Sept 7, 2015 12:04:37 GMT -5
Thanks Telson, quite comprehensive. I imagine the torque generated from the more advantageous tendon attachements may also explain why so many of the top outfield throwing arms have tended to be from the somewhat muscular, but wiry and not bulky highly muscular frames. A sampling of some of the top outfield arms of the 1970s - Reggie Smith, Ellis Valentine, Dave Parker, Cesar Geronimo, Roberto Clemente, Carl Yastrzemski, Dwight Evans, Rusty Staub, and just prior Willie Mays and Hank Aaron, and just after Jesse Barfield. Note that almost all these players had frames of approximately 6" 180 lbs.. just Evans and perhaps Valentine were heavier but also taller. The only bulky frame in the bunch was Parker, at 238, though he had a 6'5" frame. So it would seem that with the players checking your above skillsets to an exceptional degree, our attempts at projecting their power and velocity based upon size will be inaccurate, and we'll have to go more on the scouting reports of the actual in game performance. Don't forget Ichiro. Explosively fast and with an accurate cannon. Even Dewey was pretty skinny in his 20s (and what an underrated hitter...he's be a superstar now with his defense, power, and OBPs).
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Post by telson13 on Sept 7, 2015 12:14:39 GMT -5
Thanks Telson, quite comprehensive. I imagine the torque generated from the more advantageous tendon attachements may also explain why so many of the top outfield throwing arms have tended to be from the somewhat muscular, but wiry and not bulky highly muscular frames. A sampling of some of the top outfield arms of the 1970s - Reggie Smith, Ellis Valentine, Dave Parker, Cesar Geronimo, Roberto Clemente, Carl Yastrzemski, Dwight Evans, Rusty Staub, and just prior Willie Mays and Hank Aaron, and just after Jesse Barfield. Note that almost all these players had frames of approximately 6" 180 lbs.. just Evans and perhaps Valentine were heavier but also taller. The only bulky frame in the bunch was Parker, at 238, though he had a 6'5" frame. So it would seem that with the players checking your above skillsets to an exceptional degree, our attempts at projecting their power and velocity based upon size will be inaccurate, and we'll have to go more on the scouting reports of the actual in game performance. That's why I've always found the search for big/tall pitchers silly. It's not about muscle strength, it's about skeletal architecture, flexibility, and muscle density. As a collegiate sprinter, that was my mantra. Flexibility and fluidity are more valuable than strength after a certain point. And I was unsurprised to see the data showing that pitcher height has basically no predictive value for performance or injury risk. FWIW, this is exactly why I think the Sox got a steal in Benintendi, and also why I love Espinoza as a prospect. I think the recognition of the overvaluation of size is the next market inefficiency to be tapped.
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Post by tonyc on Sept 7, 2015 13:29:42 GMT -5
I know this contradicts this whole discussion, but does the data on pitcher height not corollating with performance or risk break down specifically into starting pitchers as well? I forgot whether it was Cherington quoted, but as you know the predominant view is the bulk will enable them to maintain velocity deeper into games, aside from generating it. It seems also that starting pitchers are the one position where excessive weight - on a large enough frame- didn't seem to hinder good performance- ie. Bartolo Colon, David Wells, Sabathia and Mickey Lolich. Without seeing the data, I too have this same bias with starters, and would view the Ron Guidrys, Pedros and Espinozas as exceptions via their amazing abilities in all those areas you beautifully articulated. Telson, would this preconception I share be so off that the main factor not enabling smaller wiry framed pitchers from suceeding in larger numbers be mainly the prejudice which denies them the opportunity to become starting pitchers at every level?
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