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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 4, 2015 14:21:57 GMT -5
Now I would trade Miley, but the return would have to be really good. Would Cleveland do a Miley and JBJ for Carrasco or Salazar? I trade Buchholz - now's the only time to do it. He's on a reasonable deal, and if he starts hot, it's tough to justify moving him. If he gets hurt or pitches like junk, you can't move him. Would the allure of Buchholz and JBJ be enough to get the Mariners to bite on Hanley as their DH, with Zunino coming back to Boston? We have gone over this a ton in other thread, so not going to go into too much details here. You trade Miley over Clay for two big reasons, first Clay has greater upside and we have guys like Owens waiting in the wings that can easily replace Miley production. Second Miley should have a higher trade value, with his durability and contract.
If you want Hanley gone just eat a good amount of money and a bunch of teams would be interested. You don't trade Clay and JBJ to get rid of Hanley. Why in the world would you want to trade for Zunino? Every year he gets worst as a hitter. He's a 24 year old former top prospect that is playing himself out of the game, he's been that bad. Wouldn't be shocked if by 27 he's no longer in the majors.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 4, 2015 14:24:49 GMT -5
Now I would trade Miley, but the return would have to be really good. Would Cleveland do a Miley and JBJ for Carrasco or Salazar? I trade Buchholz - now's the only time to do it. He's on a reasonable deal, and if he starts hot, it's tough to justify moving him. If he gets hurt or pitches like junk, you can't move him. Would the allure of Buchholz and JBJ be enough to get the Mariners to bite on Hanley as their DH, with Zunino coming back to Boston? How is now the time to trade Buchholz, as you wrote if he gets hurt you can't move him, he was hurt the last time anyone seen him, he has to 'prove' his health to build up value. Now is the worst time to trade him. Let him pitch show his health don't be fooled once again and peddle him on to someone else, if he stays healthy so be it, that's a gamble I'm willing to take.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 4, 2015 14:31:17 GMT -5
As many of you've probably noticed, I've traded Owens several times already and would do so again. I could see Miley on the block, but it's a guess based on Dombrowski's love of hard throwers and Kelly's 8-1 revival (much of which happened within Dombrowski's view. That said, I do recall similar conversations all the way back to 2008 and then looking up in July and lamenting that we didn't have enough starting pitching. Then why do you want to trade Owens? He is the perfect depth guy to start in the minors knowing chances are he makes 16 plus starts next year in the majors. What don't you like about him? Past poster said he was worried about fly balls in Fenway, fair point when you look at Owens %'s. Looking at his numbers in the minors, this is a guy that hasn't been hit hard and misses a lot of bats. His brief stint in the majors showed that at worst he was a solid #5 last year and should only improve.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,824
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 4, 2015 15:25:49 GMT -5
Does this depth mean we can finally be rid of the Wright nightmare?
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Post by iakovos11 on Dec 4, 2015 15:45:11 GMT -5
Does this depth mean we can finally be rid of the Wright nightmare? NO! He's not a nightmare just because you don't like knuckleballers. He's done pretty well and it would be nice if he could hold down a swing role in the pen.
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Post by xanderdu on Dec 4, 2015 15:58:18 GMT -5
Does this depth mean we can finally be rid of the Wright nightmare? I think you may need a pill for that affliction. He's the perfect swing guy, as long as you have catchers who can receive him. Both Vazquez and Swihart have caught him often. He stays, you get a prescription
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Post by Guidas on Dec 4, 2015 16:00:12 GMT -5
As many of you've probably noticed, I've traded Owens several times already and would do so again. I could see Miley on the block, but it's a guess based on Dombrowski's love of hard throwers and Kelly's 8-1 revival (much of which happened within Dombrowski's view. That said, I do recall similar conversations all the way back to 2008 and then looking up in July and lamenting that we didn't have enough starting pitching. Then why do you want to trade Owens? He is the perfect depth guy to start in the minors knowing chances are he makes 16 plus starts next year in the majors. What don't you like about him? Past poster said he was worried about fly balls in Fenway, fair point when you look at Owens %'s. Looking at his numbers in the minors, this is a guy that hasn't been hit hard and misses a lot of bats. His brief stint in the majors showed that at worst he was a solid #5 last year and should only improve. Just not a fan of Owens' stuff/pitching and honestly believe he will be exposed and eaten alive in the AL East. But my second part of that post was the caveat - that my instinct is to hold onto guys right now (pending what's offered - if Owens is a piece in a larger package a controllable #2 or better starter, sure, deal him; ditto with Miley) because arms go down, especially in spring training.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,824
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 4, 2015 17:28:42 GMT -5
Does this depth mean we can finally be rid of the Wright nightmare? I think you may need a pill for that affliction. He's the perfect swing guy, as long as you have catchers who can receive him. Both Vazquez and Swihart have caught him often. He stays, you get a prescription If you have a prescription in mind, I'm all ears.
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Post by jmei on Dec 4, 2015 17:38:34 GMT -5
I think you may need a pill for that affliction. He's the perfect swing guy, as long as you have catchers who can receive him. Both Vazquez and Swihart have caught him often. He stays, you get a prescription If you have a prescription in mind, I'm all ears.
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Dec 4, 2015 18:07:29 GMT -5
I wouldn't trade any of the SPs now unless it was to get another topflight RP, or, in some kind of package deal to get another elite or near elite SP. But they could sign O'Day and I think have a pretty solid club.
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Post by xanderdu on Dec 4, 2015 18:27:09 GMT -5
If you have a prescription in mind, I'm all ears. Now that's a pill!!!
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 4, 2015 18:57:31 GMT -5
As many of you've probably noticed, I've traded Owens several times already and would do so again. I could see Miley on the block, but it's a guess based on Dombrowski's love of hard throwers and Kelly's 8-1 revival (much of which happened within Dombrowski's view. That said, I do recall similar conversations all the way back to 2008 and then looking up in July and lamenting that we didn't have enough starting pitching. This comes up a lot, and while there's probably something to it, it's not the only thing Dombrowski cares about. Fister was averaging 90.5 MPH on the fastball when Dombrowski went out and acquired him.
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Post by iakovos11 on Dec 4, 2015 19:07:00 GMT -5
Agree on this. He wants power arms, but I'm sure he doesn't care if he has exclusively power arms. Effective control guys that throw 90-92 work, too. I don't think he has an issue with Koji. Kimbrel is here because it's 3 years of a top closer and because it's tough to count on a full year of Koji in the critical closer role.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 5, 2015 0:08:19 GMT -5
I do not think we have excess pitching to trade away.
Price, Rodriguez, Miley, and porcello should all be in the rotation next year.
We need to acquire a #2 starter still.
That leaves Owens as a call up from aaa.
But we have Buchholz, kelly and Johnson all coming back from injury, that is a wild card no team should depend on.
Pitching is always going to be coveted. Keep all our guys and let spring training sort this out.
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Post by lindy2008 on Dec 5, 2015 4:34:47 GMT -5
I'm new to posting on here, but I've watched the site and read the forums for a few years now and I enjoy reading what you all post. Now for my ideas on the SP depth:
I think opening day rotation, assuming no trades, should be Price, Buchholz, Porcello, Miley and Rodriguez. Wright and Kelly will be in the bullpen and Johnson and Owens start the year at AAA.
Miley, though no star, is dependable and slots well as a #4/#5 starter on the club. Rodriguez should get a spot in order to build on a very good rookie year last year. I think sending him back down does nothing to help his progress and I would want him around Price as much as possible to continue him on the path to potential stardom.
Wright, with no options left, is a great fit as the swingman or garbage innings reliever. Even with Price, there still will be those games where the starters will let up a good five to six runs early and you'll need someone to give three or four innings in relief to give the bats a chance to catch up or at least save the pen.
Owens and Johnson based on their lack of experience, health concerns and options will start in AAA. I think both are serviceable depth for at least this year and could be candidates to be moved next year or at the deadline for another solid arm.
I think a good deal of the comments have to deal with Kelly and where he actually fits. I am a big supporter of Kelly in the bullpen, even with his super effort down the stretch. I was at the park for his game against Toronto in September and he was extremely fun to watch. I think his stuff does play better in the bullpen. He is a hard thrower with movement on his fastball and I think his offspeed stuff will work better in relief. The comparison I have is to Justin Masterson when he first came up. The Sox and the Indians both viewed him as a starter, but his success out of the bullpen when he first came up in Boston was unreal. His slider was better and his fastball was thrown at least 2-3 mph faster. Masterson developed injury issues because of his usage as a starter and Kelly is not the most durable guy either. Putting him in the bullpen may help elongate his career and is probably his best shot at a big pay day in a couple years (a la Andrew Miller). Kelly also gives another swingman guy in the event Wright is hurt, but I would think if Kelly and Wright are both in the pen and healthy that job goes to Wright first.
I also think Kelly is the better bet to be traded. Injury risk will hurt his value but his stretch at the end of the year showcased his potential. But anything goes with Dombrowski and I know we're all excited to see how the winter progresses, especially this coming week at the Winter Meetings.
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Post by blizzards39 on Dec 5, 2015 4:49:30 GMT -5
Welcome to the board lindy. Pretty much agree with ya
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 5, 2015 9:32:20 GMT -5
I've said this in the David Price thread but I'll reiterate it since this thread is specifically talking about the subject. Stephen Wright will probably be dfad if there are no injuries. There's no chance he's going to the bullpen. Does anyone remember the 19 inning extra inning game against New York last year where Wright blew 2-3 saves? That's what you're risking by throwing a knuckle ball in a bullpen. There's also a good chance Wright gets dfad and not picked up on waivers by another team, unless a team needs depth at the end of spring training. Everyone here is forgetting the fact that not only do you need the spot for Wright on the roster, but you also need a catcher that can actually catch a knuckle ball. In my opinion, Wright is probably back in Pawtucket after he gets unclaimed. Wright has also done nothing to guarantee a roster spot in my opinion also. He's 31 years old and not many organizations are exactly enamored with knuckle ball pitchers.
As for the depth, someone is getting traded. Dave D. has already hinted at it. If anyone has been following Dave this off-season, he's been as about transparent as it gets. The arm that would be easiest to trade would be Miley and the Sox already have a ton of lefties in the rotation. Owens and Johnson can give what Miley can give, actually I think the Sox can do better with them in the rotation. No doubt if Miley is traded that Kelly, Johnson, and Owens are battling for that number 5 spot in the rotation.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 5, 2015 9:41:38 GMT -5
I'm not sold on Johnson yet, so I'm reluctant to depend on him. The Sox need a Buchholz replacement for his inevitable trip to the DL. If you consider that to be Kelly, you've got Owens and Wright, with Johnson TBD. Not sure that screams "surplus pitching" to me. I don't know why you're not sold on Johnson. The guy truly knows how to pitch. He has the best curveball in the entire organization, right with Espinoza. The guy doesn't give up much contact as his hit per nine innings shows in his minor league track record. Out of the Owens, Johnson, and Rodriguez group, Johnson has the best minor league numbers out of all three pitchers. If he didn't get injured last year he would of been ahead of Owens in terms of pitching in the final two months of the season in garbage time. He's easily the most major league ready arm the Sox have if the Sox suffer a injury next season. The ONLY thing I'm concerned with Johnson is his innings limit next year and his arm strength throughout the course of next year. It may force him into a bullpen role by the end of the long season but that should be the only concern with this guy. Simply put Johnson knows how to pitch. I'll watch him pitch over the "thrower and not pitcher" Joe Kelly all day, every day.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2015 10:27:26 GMT -5
I've said this in the David Price thread but I'll reiterate it since this thread is specifically talking about the subject. Stephen Wright will probably be dfad if there are no injuries. There's no chance he's going to the bullpen. Does anyone remember the 19 inning extra inning game against New York last year where Wright blew 2-3 saves? That's what you're risking by throwing a knuckle ball in a bullpen. There's also a good chance Wright gets dfad and not picked up on waivers by another team, unless a team needs depth at the end of spring training. Everyone here is forgetting the fact that not only do you need the spot for Wright on the roster, but you also need a catcher that can actually catch a knuckle ball. In my opinion, Wright is probably back in Pawtucket after he gets unclaimed. Wright has also done nothing to guarantee a roster spot in my opinion also. He's 31 years old and not many organizations are exactly enamored with knuckle ball pitchers. As for the depth, someone is getting traded. Dave D. has already hinted at it. If anyone has been following Dave this off-season, he's been as about transparent as it gets. The arm that would be easiest to trade would be Miley and the Sox already have a ton of lefties in the rotation. Owens and Johnson can give what Miley can give, actually I think the Sox can do better with them in the rotation. No doubt if Miley is traded that Kelly, Johnson, and Owens are battling for that number 5 spot in the rotation. I don't view Wright so negatively. He can be an asset. You bring up the 19 inning game. The Sox aren't going to get rid of him because of one game, one that yeah, he blew the lead a couple of times, but actually did close out the game on the winning side. You're also missing that he displayed length. I believe he gave up 2 runs in 5 IP. He's perfect for long relief and spot starting, and while I don't believe in him the way Eric Van does, I still think he has value, and have no doubt that another team would scoop him up to start if he were DFAd. As it is I think he does have value for the Sox in a middle relief/long relief/spot start/depth kind of role. It's not glamorous but it's a job that needs to be done, and he could most definitely fill that role. I believe Swihart has experience catching Wright at AAA, so I'm not overly concerned about it, especially in the kind of outings he'd be pitching in. Plus he also buys more time for Johnson and Owens to hone their craft in AAA, which can be beneficial - I think they still need some more development time and I wouldn't be too crazy about them being rushed back up in April if a starter gets injured.
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 5, 2015 10:47:40 GMT -5
Wright is our long relief/mop-up guy and spot starter/AAA guy in case of fatigue or injury. It looked to me that his knuckler had great movement...perhaps better than Wake except in his prime. He has value.
The trouble with knucklers is when they don't have the feel or tempo or whatever else is in the mix, "see ya"....so that is always something of a gamble when they pitch.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Dec 5, 2015 10:59:23 GMT -5
Is anybody else concerned that so many of the Sox starters are left-handed? I can remember a time when starting a left-handed pitcher in Fenway was a no-no. Price and Erod are obviously going to start. If you start Miley, that is 3 left-handed starters with probably your 2 top back ups being left-handed as well. If you are going to trade a starter, I vote for trading a left-hander, probably Miley. If he can be part of a package to get back a number 2 starter, fine. If not, I would like to use him to offset some of the prospects we lost in the Kimbrel deal. Maybe an AA or AAA right-hand pitcher.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2015 11:14:15 GMT -5
Is anybody else concerned that so many of the Sox starters are left-handed? I can remember a time when starting a left-handed pitcher in Fenway was a no-no. Price and Erod are obviously going to start. If you start Miley, that is 3 left-handed starters with probably your 2 top back ups being left-handed as well. If you are going to trade a starter, I vote for trading a left-hander, probably Miley. If he can be part of a package to get back a number 2 starter, fine. If not, I would like to use him to offset some of the prospects we lost in the Kimbrel deal. Maybe an AA or AAA right-hand pitcher. Not too concerned with the pitchers being lefty. If the southpaw is a quality pitcher he'll be fine. The Sox have had some over the years that have succeeded, from Ruth, Grove, Parnell, Lee, Hurst, Viola, and Lester come to mind, and I'm sure Price will be great, too. I suspect E-Rod will be pretty good, too.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 5, 2015 11:14:19 GMT -5
I've said this in the David Price thread but I'll reiterate it since this thread is specifically talking about the subject. Stephen Wright will probably be dfad if there are no injuries. There's no chance he's going to the bullpen. Does anyone remember the 19 inning extra inning game against New York last year where Wright blew 2-3 saves? That's what you're risking by throwing a knuckle ball in a bullpen. There's also a good chance Wright gets dfad and not picked up on waivers by another team, unless a team needs depth at the end of spring training. Everyone here is forgetting the fact that not only do you need the spot for Wright on the roster, but you also need a catcher that can actually catch a knuckle ball. In my opinion, Wright is probably back in Pawtucket after he gets unclaimed. Wright has also done nothing to guarantee a roster spot in my opinion also. He's 31 years old and not many organizations are exactly enamored with knuckle ball pitchers. As for the depth, someone is getting traded. Dave D. has already hinted at it. If anyone has been following Dave this off-season, he's been as about transparent as it gets. The arm that would be easiest to trade would be Miley and the Sox already have a ton of lefties in the rotation. Owens and Johnson can give what Miley can give, actually I think the Sox can do better with them in the rotation. No doubt if Miley is traded that Kelly, Johnson, and Owens are battling for that number 5 spot in the rotation. I don't view Wright so negatively. He can be an asset. You bring up the 19 inning game. The Sox aren't going to get rid of him because of one game, one that yeah, he blew the lead a couple of times, but actually did close out the game on the winning side. You're also missing that he displayed length. I believe he gave up 2 runs in 5 IP. He's perfect for long relief and spot starting, and while I don't believe in him the way Eric Van does, I still think he has value, and have no doubt that another team would scoop him up to start if he were DFAd. As it is I think he does have value for the Sox in a middle relief/long relief/spot start/depth kind of role. It's not glamorous but it's a job that needs to be done, and he could most definitely fill that role. I believe Swihart has experience catching Wright at AAA, so I'm not overly concerned about it, especially in the kind of outings he'd be pitching in. Plus he also buys more time for Johnson and Owens to hone their craft in AAA, which can be beneficial - I think they still need some more development time and I wouldn't be too crazy about them being rushed back up in April if a starter gets injured. There is absolutely no guarantee that Wright gets "swooped" up if he gets Dfad. You obviously missed the part where other teams would need to find a catcher to catch a knuckle ball which is even harder to find since there are no pitchers like that anymore. It's not just the one 19 inning game where that would occur either. Eventually in any extra inning games, the long man would usually come in as the last option. With Wright a knuckle ball has a chance to be a passed ball away from ending the game with runners on, never mind all the homeruns they give up. Knuckle ball pitchers are terrible ideas as bullpen pieces. Hence the reason why Wakefield was a starter for 95% of his career here because the closer spot and especially the bullpen spot wasn't a fit.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 5, 2015 11:21:08 GMT -5
Wright is our long relief/mop-up guy and spot starter/AAA guy in case of fatigue or injury. It looked to me that his knuckler had great movement...perhaps better than Wake except in his prime. He has value. The trouble with knucklers is when they don't have the feel or tempo or whatever else is in the mix, "see ya"....so that is always something of a gamble when they pitch. He has value to who? The sox? Maybe. They got a couple catchers that can catch a knuckle ball with Leon in aaa and maybe swihart (even though he looked really iffy catching it a ton of the time). It's really hard pressed to find a team that values a 31 year old knuckle ball pitcher who hasn't proved anything but a few short stints in the majors. Very good chance he's going back to Pawtucket if/when he's dfad.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 5, 2015 11:23:37 GMT -5
Do I have to remind anyone of another extra inning loss with Wakefield on the mound in a certain playoff game too to remind everyone why knuckle ball pitchers are terrible options for the bullpen?
*cough game 7 2003 alcs*
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