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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2015 11:46:17 GMT -5
I don't view Wright so negatively. He can be an asset. You bring up the 19 inning game. The Sox aren't going to get rid of him because of one game, one that yeah, he blew the lead a couple of times, but actually did close out the game on the winning side. You're also missing that he displayed length. I believe he gave up 2 runs in 5 IP. He's perfect for long relief and spot starting, and while I don't believe in him the way Eric Van does, I still think he has value, and have no doubt that another team would scoop him up to start if he were DFAd. As it is I think he does have value for the Sox in a middle relief/long relief/spot start/depth kind of role. It's not glamorous but it's a job that needs to be done, and he could most definitely fill that role. I believe Swihart has experience catching Wright at AAA, so I'm not overly concerned about it, especially in the kind of outings he'd be pitching in. Plus he also buys more time for Johnson and Owens to hone their craft in AAA, which can be beneficial - I think they still need some more development time and I wouldn't be too crazy about them being rushed back up in April if a starter gets injured. There is absolutely no guarantee that Wright gets "swooped" up if he gets Dfad. You obviously missed the part where other teams would need to find a catcher to catch a knuckle ball which is even harder to find since there are no pitchers like that anymore. It's not just the one 19 inning game where that would occur either. Eventually in any extra inning games, the long man would usually come in as the last option. With Wright a knuckle ball has a chance to be a passed ball away from ending the game with runners on, never mind all the homeruns they give up. Knuckle ball pitchers are terrible ideas as bullpen pieces. Hence the reason why Wakefield was a starter for 95% of his career here because the closer spot and especially the bullpen spot wasn't a fit. I didn't miss the part about needing to find a catcher. I just think if you're looking for catchers "groomed" to catch the knuckler you'll never find one, and there would never be a knuckler in th majors or minors. I'm not suggesting Wright be used in high leverage situation, but rather in length to save the bullpen and fill in the gaps - long relief to eat up innings and keep the Sox close. They didn't get him top close, and if you're in a long extra inning game I'll take my chances with him versus the other team's 7th guy/low leverage pitcher on the staff as he can pitch several innings if need be.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2015 11:48:15 GMT -5
Do I have to remind anyone of another extra inning loss with Wakefield on the mound in a certain playoff game too to remind everyone why knuckle ball pitchers are terrible options for the bullpen? *cough game 7 2003 alcs* How about Game 5 2004 ALCS? That one turned out alright. It was hairy but it worked out. And keep in mind Wakefield saved the staff in Game 3 with his ability to pitch multiple inning of unglamorous mop-up. There's value in that.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 5, 2015 12:04:58 GMT -5
Actually, having a guy in the bullpen who can pitch 5 innings in a 19 inning game is pretty useful. Would you rather have a position player pitching?
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Post by xanderdu on Dec 5, 2015 12:07:11 GMT -5
Is anybody else concerned that so many of the Sox starters are left-handed? I can remember a time when starting a left-handed pitcher in Fenway was a no-no. Price and Erod are obviously going to start. If you start Miley, that is 3 left-handed starters with probably your 2 top back ups being left-handed as well. If you are going to trade a starter, I vote for trading a left-hander, probably Miley. If he can be part of a package to get back a number 2 starter, fine. If not, I would like to use him to offset some of the prospects we lost in the Kimbrel deal. Maybe an AA or AAA right-hand pitcher. This is exactly where I am. I would call it aware of the preponderance of lefties more than concerned. Still much time this offseason, and much longer before they depend on Johnson or Owens.
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Post by iakovos11 on Dec 5, 2015 14:01:47 GMT -5
Do I have to remind anyone of another extra inning loss with Wakefield on the mound in a certain playoff game too to remind everyone why knuckle ball pitchers are terrible options for the bullpen? *cough game 7 2003 alcs* Seriously? You're making that argument? It's like David Price is a bad fit here because if we get to the playoffs he'll never win. At least that argument involves the same pitcher. You can hate knuckleballers all you want. If you're going to make arguments as to why they're bad fits for the bullpen, you have to do way better than cherry picking one of Wake's losses in the playoffs. That doesn't even pass the smell test.
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Post by sammo420 on Dec 5, 2015 14:35:18 GMT -5
"What to do with SP depth?"
Nothing. It will thin itself through injuries and lack of performance.
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 5, 2015 15:04:38 GMT -5
Wright is our long relief/mop-up guy and spot starter/AAA guy in case of fatigue or injury. It looked to me that his knuckler had great movement...perhaps better than Wake except in his prime. He has value. The trouble with knucklers is when they don't have the feel or tempo or whatever else is in the mix, "see ya"....so that is always something of a gamble when they pitch. He has value to who? The sox? Maybe. They got a couple catchers that can catch a knuckle ball with Leon in aaa and maybe swihart (even though he looked really iffy catching it a ton of the time). It's really hard pressed to find a team that values a 31 year old knuckle ball pitcher who hasn't proved anything but a few short stints in the majors. Very good chance he's going back to Pawtucket if/when he's dfad. Well didn't he come to the knuckleball late in life? I thought that he picked it up at age 28-29 or so, in which case, he has made remarkable progress. He has a little more zip on it than Wake did which gives him more of a change of pace with it. He is valuable because he doesn't need to be stretched out much and can give innings. Swihart had a horrible time trying to catch it so it must have a lot of movement. I don't much care what value he has to other teams. In our current situation, he has value for the Sox IMO. He might well be stored in Pawtucket as I don't see him in a steady relief role. But I'll bet that he is not Designated.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2015 15:06:39 GMT -5
He has value to who? The sox? Maybe. They got a couple catchers that can catch a knuckle ball with Leon in aaa and maybe swihart (even though he looked really iffy catching it a ton of the time). It's really hard pressed to find a team that values a 31 year old knuckle ball pitcher who hasn't proved anything but a few short stints in the majors. Very good chance he's going back to Pawtucket if/when he's dfad. Well didn't he come to the knuckleball late in life? I thought that he picked it up at age 28-29 or so, in which case, he has made remarkable progress. He has a little more zip on it than Wake did which gives him more of a change of pace with it. He is valuable because he doesn't need to be stretched out much and can give innings. Swihart had a horrible time trying to catch it so it must have a lot of movement. I don't much care what value he has to other teams. In our current situation, he has value for the Sox IMO. He might well be stored in Pawtucket as I don't see him in a steady relief role. But I'll bet that he is not Designated. He's out of options. He either stays in the pen or he'll wind up being subject to somebody else claiming him. If he doesn't make the team, he'll wind up with some other team.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 5, 2015 15:21:01 GMT -5
I don't view Wright so negatively. He can be an asset. You bring up the 19 inning game. The Sox aren't going to get rid of him because of one game, one that yeah, he blew the lead a couple of times, but actually did close out the game on the winning side. You're also missing that he displayed length. I believe he gave up 2 runs in 5 IP. He's perfect for long relief and spot starting, and while I don't believe in him the way Eric Van does, I still think he has value, and have no doubt that another team would scoop him up to start if he were DFAd. As it is I think he does have value for the Sox in a middle relief/long relief/spot start/depth kind of role. It's not glamorous but it's a job that needs to be done, and he could most definitely fill that role. I believe Swihart has experience catching Wright at AAA, so I'm not overly concerned about it, especially in the kind of outings he'd be pitching in. Plus he also buys more time for Johnson and Owens to hone their craft in AAA, which can be beneficial - I think they still need some more development time and I wouldn't be too crazy about them being rushed back up in April if a starter gets injured. There is absolutely no guarantee that Wright gets "swooped" up if he gets Dfad. You obviously missed the part where other teams would need to find a catcher to catch a knuckle ball which is even harder to find since there are no pitchers like that anymore. It's not just the one 19 inning game where that would occur either. Eventually in any extra inning games, the long man would usually come in as the last option. With Wright a knuckle ball has a chance to be a passed ball away from ending the game with runners on, never mind all the homeruns they give up. Knuckle ball pitchers are terrible ideas as bullpen pieces. Hence the reason why Wakefield was a starter for 95% of his career here because the closer spot and especially the bullpen spot wasn't a fit. You waste a knuckleball pitcher in the closer spot and somewhat in the bullpen. Great thing about knuckleballer is how many pitches and innings they can throw, due to ease of throwing the knuckleball. You might be able to make Wright a long reliever. Now Wake didn't like the pen because he said he needed to throw more pitches/innings to keep the knuckleball sharp. That doesn't mean that all knuckleballers can't work out of the pen.
Now as to him being claimed if he gets waived, sure its not 100%, but with so many teams needing pitching, I'd say its 80-90% that another team claims him.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 5, 2015 15:43:26 GMT -5
I am wondering what the people here think of E. Rodriguez. He just had a pretty good year for a 22 year old, IMO. It seems to me he doesn't garner much attention here, nor does there seem to be much enthusiasm about his future. As I'm sure you all know if you back out a few very bad outings he was dominant. How often does a 22 yr old rookie pitch much better than he did? I am pretty excited about his future, am I alone.
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Post by 07redsox on Dec 5, 2015 15:59:29 GMT -5
I am wondering what the people here think of E. Rodriguez. He just had a pretty good year for a 22 year old, IMO. It seems to me he doesn't garner much attention here, nor does there seem to be much enthusiasm about his future. As I'm sure you all know if you back out a few very bad outings he was dominant. How often does a 22 yr old rookie pitch much better than he did? I am pretty excited about his future, am I alone. Not sure where you are getting that. There has been a ton of enthusiasm for his future pretty much since he made his debut (and a little even before then as well).
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Post by mattpicard on Dec 5, 2015 16:09:33 GMT -5
I am wondering what the people here think of E. Rodriguez. He just had a pretty good year for a 22 year old, IMO. It seems to me he doesn't garner much attention here, nor does there seem to be much enthusiasm about his future. As I'm sure you all know if you back out a few very bad outings he was dominant. How often does a 22 yr old rookie pitch much better than he did? I am pretty excited about his future, am I alone. He's highly regarded by just about everyone on this board, with many comfortably penciling him as the #3 guy in the rotation. Perhaps it's that confidence people currently have in him over, say, a guy like Owens, that makes him not talked about as much lately.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 5, 2015 16:14:26 GMT -5
I went looking for a thread here and didn't find one. Is there one?
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Post by xanderdu on Dec 5, 2015 16:46:59 GMT -5
I am wondering what the people here think of E. Rodriguez. He just had a pretty good year for a 22 year old, IMO. It seems to me he doesn't garner much attention here, nor does there seem to be much enthusiasm about his future. As I'm sure you all know if you back out a few very bad outings he was dominant. How often does a 22 yr old rookie pitch much better than he did? I am pretty excited about his future, am I alone. We tend to focus on areas of concern until the team is complete. Everyone is s huge fan of ERod, and I think I speak for all when I say he's got a bright future.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
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Post by nomar on Dec 5, 2015 17:05:34 GMT -5
I think Kelly gets dealt in the winter meetings. I'd probably wait until ST.
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 5, 2015 17:16:07 GMT -5
Well didn't he come to the knuckleball late in life? I thought that he picked it up at age 28-29 or so, in which case, he has made remarkable progress. He has a little more zip on it than Wake did which gives him more of a change of pace with it. He is valuable because he doesn't need to be stretched out much and can give innings. Swihart had a horrible time trying to catch it so it must have a lot of movement. I don't much care what value he has to other teams. In our current situation, he has value for the Sox IMO. He might well be stored in Pawtucket as I don't see him in a steady relief role. But I'll bet that he is not Designated. He's out of options. He either stays in the pen or he'll wind up being subject to somebody else claiming him. If he doesn't make the team, he'll wind up with some other team. wRight you are. I got caught up defending him as a viable pitcher. Trading Wright doesn't get us much so I would like to keep him on the roster. I doubt very much that we trade Kelly. A guy with that arm..........and Dombrowski's penchant?
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 5, 2015 18:46:07 GMT -5
Does anyone remember the 19 inning extra inning game against New York last year where Wright blew 2-3 saves? What this proves is mainly that if you hate knuckleballers you'll always be able to cherry-pick a game or two to make your case. The real problem with putting Wright in the bullpen is that he's obviously better as a starter. He seems to need an extended warmup period to pick up the feel for his knuckleball and has so far in his career done much better on a regular schedule than in irregular spot starts and bullpen cameos. So what to do with SP depth? Pretty obvious solution in my mind... start Wade Miley in AAA or trade him if you get a good offer. Red Sox rotation Price, Buchholz, Porcello, Rodriguez, Wright. (Well there's an even more obvious solution that involves piggyback starters, but there's a Farrell-related problem there.)
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Post by telson13 on Dec 5, 2015 19:06:59 GMT -5
I am wondering what the people here think of E. Rodriguez. He just had a pretty good year for a 22 year old, IMO. It seems to me he doesn't garner much attention here, nor does there seem to be much enthusiasm about his future. As I'm sure you all know if you back out a few very bad outings he was dominant. How often does a 22 yr old rookie pitch much better than he did? I am pretty excited about his future, am I alone. Not at all. He pitched to numbers right on the border of a 2/3 SP last year, at just 22. He's probably good for 16-8, 3.50 with a WHIP around 1.2 and 8K/9 this coming year in 180-200 innings. I think he'll be the #2 by year's end (if he isn't already), and he's got 1a upside, if not legit #1 upside. I can see him being a fantastic pitcher in his prime, but that's likely to be 2-4 years from now.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 5, 2015 19:19:12 GMT -5
Actually, having a guy in the bullpen who can pitch 5 innings in a 19 inning game is pretty useful. Would you rather have a position player pitching? Anything but a knuckle ball. The Sox can find a long man that doesn't come with the fear of past balls, easy stolen bases, walks, and homeruns in extra innings. That's the problem anytime you throw a knuckle ball in extra innings and why there terrible options for bullpens. I didn't just name one example, I named two. There have been probably plenty of games I'm forgetting in extra innings too when Wakefield was giving up past balls with runners on third to end the game.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 5, 2015 19:24:21 GMT -5
Do I have to remind anyone of another extra inning loss with Wakefield on the mound in a certain playoff game too to remind everyone why knuckle ball pitchers are terrible options for the bullpen? *cough game 7 2003 alcs* Seriously? You're making that argument? It's like David Price is a bad fit here because if we get to the playoffs he'll never win. At least that argument involves the same pitcher. You can hate knuckleballers all you want. If you're going to make arguments as to why they're bad fits for the bullpen, you have to do way better than cherry picking one of Wake's losses in the playoffs. That doesn't even pass the smell test. Only I'm not cherry picking. Anytime a knuckle ball pitcher gives up a baserunner, he'll end up in scoring position 2-3 pitches later. Knuckle ball pitchers can't prevent the stolen base, past ball, homeruns, and walks. That's a recipe for disaster in extra innings and will lose the game more often than not.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 5, 2015 19:30:06 GMT -5
I was playing OOTP the other day and saw one of those baseball quotes about how the 2003 or 05? Red Sox didn't play their first extra inning game until the 93rd (trying to remember) game of the season.
You know, the other thing you can do is look at the stats. I imagine Wright would be just as good in extra innings as any other pitcher who has similar stats.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2015 19:34:56 GMT -5
Actually, having a guy in the bullpen who can pitch 5 innings in a 19 inning game is pretty useful. Would you rather have a position player pitching? Anything but a knuckle ball. The Sox can find a long man that doesn't come with the fear of past balls, easy stolen bases, walks, and homeruns in extra innings. That's the problem anytime you throw a knuckle ball in extra innings and why there terrible options for bullpens. I didn't just name one example, I named two. There have been probably plenty of games I'm forgetting in extra innings too when Wakefield was giving up past balls with runners on third to end the game. And you think that Wright would be in just about every inning game? The majority of his games would be as long man in low leverage situations to try to keep the game close. And he'd be pitted most likely against the #7 guy of the other team's staff if the game goes 15 as you're so worried about. I'll take my chances with Wright in that situation. And he can spot start if necessary and stay in the rotation for extended periods of time if need be without being terrible. If the game is going 10 or 11 or even 12 innings it's likely the Sox are still matching up before going to Wright, so I'm not so sure what you're so deeply concerned about.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 5, 2015 19:39:06 GMT -5
Does anyone remember the 19 inning extra inning game against New York last year where Wright blew 2-3 saves? What this proves is mainly that if you hate knuckleballers you'll always be able to cherry-pick a game or two to make your case. The real problem with putting Wright in the bullpen is that he's obviously better as a starter. He seems to need an extended warmup period to pick up the feel for his knuckleball and has so far in his career done much better on a regular schedule than in irregular spot starts and bullpen cameos. So what to do with SP depth? Pretty obvious solution in my mind... start Wade Miley in AAA or trade him if you get a good offer. Red Sox rotation Price, Buchholz, Porcello, Rodriguez, Wright. (Well there's an even more obvious solution that involves piggyback starters, but there's a Farrell-related problem there.) And you think sending Miley to AAA makes sense? Trading him I can see. He's not a AAA pitcher. That's not realistic. And you're laying at Farrell's feet that he doesn't "piggyback" starters the way you suggest. Come to think of it, no manager in baseball does that kind of radical thing and I don't think any have often. I think once upon a time Lou Piniella started Ted Power for an inning or two before switching to a starter throwing from a different hand to mess up the other team, but that doesn't happen very often. I guess Francona was a terrible manager because he didn't that either. Neither did Earl Weaver or Whitey Herzog, who were the greatest managers I remember seeing.
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Post by ray88h66 on Dec 5, 2015 19:49:09 GMT -5
I went looking for a thread here and didn't find one. Is there one? Lots of talk about him in the old game day threads. Match up his starting days with the game day threads and read away. Almost all talk was positive. For myself ,I think he is far and away the best hope for a top of the rotation guy from within.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 5, 2015 19:50:45 GMT -5
I am wondering what the people here think of E. Rodriguez. He just had a pretty good year for a 22 year old, IMO. It seems to me he doesn't garner much attention here, nor does there seem to be much enthusiasm about his future. As I'm sure you all know if you back out a few very bad outings he was dominant. How often does a 22 yr old rookie pitch much better than he did? I am pretty excited about his future, am I alone. The way I see it is the sox have three untouchables at the moment, betts, bogearts and swihart. I put Rodriguez in that next category, "it would take a knock your sox off offer to include him in a trade." If he continues to progress in 2016 like he did in 2015, then he will be the fourth member of the untouchables by November 2016.
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