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Red Sox agree to trade for Joel Hanrahan
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Post by pbgallag on Dec 23, 2012 12:57:05 GMT -5
;;' Melancon had the opportunity to win the closing job last year. He melted down in front of our very eyes and had to be demoted to AAA. Hanrahan has 76 saves in two years and had 100k's in 69 innings the year before that. Melancon might be better?? Really So you dismiss one pitcher's future based on his surface stats over a few innings pitched and assume another pitcher is destined for future success based on his prior save totals? Really? That's nonsense. Also, why was the title of this thread prematurely updated?
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,830
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Post by nomar on Dec 23, 2012 13:25:20 GMT -5
Lets pray that the Pirates go brain dead and give us Hanson or Polanco.
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
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Post by steveofbradenton on Dec 23, 2012 13:25:51 GMT -5
Definitely a low cost to pay for an experienced closer who throws high 90 heat. Wanted to see what Sands had this spring, but as they say....got to give up something.
Our bullpen may......may be dominant. But still this team will be competitive, IF the starters put in consistently 6 to 7 innings.
Can't believe there is no word on the other players involved. That is a little worrisome. Why have this breaking news and not have the "smaller" part agreed to?
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Post by bluechip on Dec 23, 2012 13:47:26 GMT -5
Also, why was the title of this thread prematurely updated? It sounds like Hanrahan is going to the Red Sox, from the reports. They just seem to haggling over who (in addition to Sands and Pimentel) will be going to the Bucs and who will be coming back from the Pirates.
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Post by greenmonster on Dec 23, 2012 14:59:35 GMT -5
So essentially the deal is agreed to .....except for the players involved......lol
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Post by remember04 on Dec 23, 2012 16:12:23 GMT -5
So essentially the deal is agreed to .....except for the players involved......lol Which happens all the time. Remember the infamous PTBNL or "player to be named later"?
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Post by chrisg on Dec 23, 2012 16:27:31 GMT -5
PTBNL = JVE. You heard it here first.
(The question is whether we acquire him and send him to the Pirates or vice versa.)
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Dec 23, 2012 16:30:33 GMT -5
So essentially the deal is agreed to .....except for the players involved......lol Which happens all the time. Remember the infamous PTBNL or "player to be named later"? THIS is what worries me. That player or players may make the rest of the trade hard to digest. Can't believe they have to wait until after Christmas to complete it.
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Post by jmei on Dec 23, 2012 17:04:19 GMT -5
Someone wouldn't have leaked the deal to the media as "done" unless the unnamed players are minor enough that it wouldn't derail the deal from getting done. For that reason, I don't really think Melancon is one of the two unnamed players. Even with bad surface stats in 2012, he's still far more valuable than, say, Pimentel. Hell, he should be headlining the deal if he's really in it.
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Post by remember04 on Dec 23, 2012 17:23:08 GMT -5
Someone wouldn't have leaked the deal to the media as "done" unless the unnamed players are minor enough that it wouldn't derail the deal from getting done. For that reason, I don't really think Melancon is one of the two unnamed players. Even with bad surface stats in 2012, he's still far more valuable than, say, Pimentel. Hell, he should be headlining the deal if he's really in it. I agree on both counts and can anybody name a trade where the "afterthought" players were bigger than the initial names? I can't.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Dec 23, 2012 17:35:08 GMT -5
Someone wouldn't have leaked the deal to the media as "done" unless the unnamed players are minor enough that it wouldn't derail the deal from getting done. For that reason, I don't really think Melancon is one of the two unnamed players. Even with bad surface stats in 2012, he's still far more valuable than, say, Pimentel. Hell, he should be headlining the deal if he's really in it. Unless there are two deals worked out and the Red Sox are deciding which one to go with. Perhaps it is Sands, Pimentel and one or two lower tier guys for Hanrahan or Sands, Pimentel, Melancon, and another player for Hanrahan and Jones.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Dec 23, 2012 19:42:50 GMT -5
Unless there are two deals worked out and the Red Sox are deciding which one to go with. Perhaps it is Sands, Pimentel and one or two lower tier guys for Hanrahan or Sands, Pimentel, Melancon, and another player for Hanrahan and Jones. If this is the actual scenario, isn't it a no brainer? The Red Sox would basically be deciding whether to deal Melancon for Jones, which would make sense even if they weren't getting Hanrahan. The bullpen is overflowing with righties and Jones could have a real role here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2012 19:47:25 GMT -5
if it involves melancon too, garret jones better be coming back too and then i would call off napoli's deal.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Dec 23, 2012 20:05:42 GMT -5
If this is the actual scenario, isn't it a no brainer? The Red Sox would basically be deciding whether to deal Melancon for Jones, which would make sense even if they weren't getting Hanrahan. The bullpen is overflowing with righties and Jones could have a real role here. It is a no brainer unless the fourth player is someone relatively significant.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Dec 23, 2012 21:02:21 GMT -5
And as it turned out giving Victorino $39 million compared to the $25 million for Ross hardly seems like a bargain either. Maybe Shane Victorino is a much more valubale player than Cody Ross? And the difference in guaranteed money between the two is "only" 13 million over 3 years. Cody Ross had his second best season last year and was worth 2.4 FWAR. Shane Victorino was a bum and put up 3.3 FWAR. They are also the same age. If you don't like WAR and stats that try to quantify defense we can also just look at their offensive outputs; Ross: .324 OBP .338 WOBA 106 WRC+ 30 SB Victorino: .341 OPB .338 WOBA 105 WRC+ 200 SB So they are more or less the same hitter, but Victorino is a good centerfielder who is very valuable on the bases while Ross is a pretty good corner outfielder who brings no additional value on the bases.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 23, 2012 21:24:59 GMT -5
And as it turned out giving Victorino $39 million compared to the $25 million for Ross hardly seems like a bargain either. Maybe Shane Victorino is a much more valubale player than Cody Ross? And the difference in guaranteed money between the two is "only" 13 million over 3 years. Cody Ross had his second best season last year and was worth 2.4 FWAR. Shane Victorino was a bum and put up 3.3 FWAR. They are also the same age. If you don't like WAR and stats that try to quantify defense we can also just look at their offensive outputs; Ross: .324 OBP .338 WOBA 106 WRC+ 30 SB Victorino: .341 OPB .338 WOBA 105 WRC+ 200 SB So they are more or less the same hitter, but Victorino is a good centerfielder who is very valuable on the bases while Ross is a pretty good corner outfielder who brings no additional value on the bases. You could also say that Cody Ross finally had a home ballpark that agreed with him as opposed to playing primarily in Miami and San Fran which are definitely not hitters' ballparks. You could also say that Ross would provide more power than Victorino is going to provide. Ross playing a full season with the Sox is capable of hitting 30 homers. Doubt Victorino gets half of that and I doubt at this point that Victorino's OBP will be head and shoulders above Ross. Won't argue about the defense - Victorino would be head and shoulders above Ross defensively. Don't need a bunch of stats for that. I didn't blame the Sox for not wanting to go 3 years for Ross, but I'd rather the Sox have made him a qualifying offer to Ross than spend qualifying offer level money for Shane Victorino, who last year, was no better than a 4th OF and is also on the wrong side of 30. I don't particularly care for the Victorino signing. Unless he bounces back to 2011 levels, or is forced into playing CF because the Sox made a brilliant deal for Ellsbury, than I don't see the benefit of the extra $14 million over 3 years for Victorino vs Ross.
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Post by fdrnewdeal on Dec 23, 2012 21:57:31 GMT -5
Ross couldn’t do better than a 1 year 3 million dollar deal last year. The reason for this is that he was coming off an unlucky season, in which he wasn’t any good. His 2012 was basically in-line with most of his career. He’s an awesome lefty mashing platoon partner, who won’t kill you if you’re forced to start him against righties.
Victorino is coming off a lousy year for his standards, that like Ross the season before, was impacted by some bad luck*. That, their age and the fact that Victorino isn’t exactly a world beater against right handed pitching is where the similarities end. Victorino was a legit star in 2011, a guy who could have possible been in contention for the MVP, had he not been hurt down the stretch. I don’t’ think there’s any reason to believe he’ll ever produce the same power numbers as he did in 2011 again, but even in a “normal” year, the guy produces All-Star level production.
Given the sizes of contracts this off-season, I think Victorino is kind of a steal. The new environment is a lot friendlier to players. We’ve got to alter our expectations of what is fair value based on what’s actually happening. Look at what Upton got. Good players, with significant warts can command 70+ million. Formerly excellent players who are still likely to be well above average can surely hope to get close to 40.
*He was also still a pretty good player, despite this.
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Post by soxfan06 on Dec 23, 2012 22:28:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure why we are talking about Victorino and Ross in a Hanrahan thread...but the two players aren't even comparable. Victorino is a much much better player. Period.
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Post by pbgallag on Dec 23, 2012 22:35:19 GMT -5
And as it turned out giving Victorino $39 million compared to the $25 million for Ross hardly seems like a bargain either. Ross performed at the level of a 4th OF in both 2010 (735 OPS) and 2011 (730 OPS). He was the same player last year (684 OPS on the road) with some help from Fenway. He's established as a 730 OPS guy with mediocre defense/baserunning. The kind of player you add for 1 year, $3M. Victorino had an 800 OPS from 2008-2011. It's very likely that he outperforms Ross at the plate in 2013, but worst case he falls to a similar offensive level while adding elite defense/baserunning.
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Post by buffs4444 on Dec 23, 2012 22:50:34 GMT -5
if it involves melancon too, garret jones better be coming back too and then i would call off napoli's deal. Jones would be the LF complement to Gomes (Gomes vs LHP, Jones vs RHP), and also serve as the backup 1B. His possible inclusion should do nothing to influence the acquisition of a starting 1B like Napoli.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 23, 2012 23:19:25 GMT -5
if it involves melancon too, garret jones better be coming back too and then i would call off napoli's deal. Jones would be the LF complement to Gomes (Gomes vs LHP, Jones vs RHP), and also serve as the backup 1B. His possible inclusion should do nothing to influence the acquisition of a starting 1B like Napoli. I agree, but I wonder if Pittsburgh is holding out for a 4th player in this deal.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 23, 2012 23:26:02 GMT -5
I'm not sure why we are talking about Victorino and Ross in a Hanrahan thread...but the two players aren't even comparable. Victorino is a much much better player. Period. Fine then. Victorino for $13 million/year over the next three years is a sensational signing. If he hits anything like he did last year, then the Sox are stuck with an aging corner OF hitting a dozen homers per year with a mediocre OBP for a lot of money. But why be concerned? After all, players in their 30s don't usually decline. Now getting back to the real topic at hand, I would hope that Garrett Jones would be the 2nd player coming back to the Sox in a deal, and I've read that some don't think Melancon is part of the deal. I do think Melancon is part of the deal (looks like the Sox convinced Pittsburgh to take him over Morales, who I think (and I know Clint Hurdle would have preferred) they would have preferred, and I think they're haggling over the remaining minor leaguers. I doubt Jones is part of this transaction. If the Sox are going to deal Bailey and or/Salty, I hope they find a viable power hitting LH platoon hitting corner OF. If not then the Sox might need to consider Nava and his decent OBP near the top of the order. And if the Napoli deal falls thru, I hope the Sox look at Berkman or at Seattle in a deal for Smoak. Somehow, I don't think the Pirates are going to give up Jones to fill these Sox holes unless they're getting significant return on the mystery player to be determined later.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 24, 2012 0:35:55 GMT -5
I sincerely doubt that the fourth player from Boston and the second player from Pittsburgh are of much value. This trade is about freeing up money on Pittsburgh's end (Hanrahan's projected to get about $6.9M in arb) and about freeing up 40-man spots on Boston's end. The two organizations are very, very familiar with each other doing an average of two deals a season dating back to '06 or so, not even including all the Sox castaways the Pirates pick up. Nobody's pulling the wool over anyone's eyes in these deals.
Re: Melancon, there's apparently some question about whether he can hack it on a big stage like Boston and New York. If you selectively look at his numbers, there could be something to it - failed in NY, excelled in Houston, stunk in April, excelled the second he got to Pawtucket, was ok when he came back up then started to stink again, then excelled in September after the Sox had punted on the season. Of course, I'm the first to admit that it's all highly circumstantial and SSS evidence, but the Sox may think they're selling high on Melancon here, and let's face it, in a bullpen that features Hanrahan, Uehara, Bailey, and Tazawa, do they really need Melancon? This trade was going to include a RH reliever - is it that big of a deal if it's Melancon instead of Mortensen?
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Dec 24, 2012 7:55:56 GMT -5
Doubt we help the Pirates out here, but they badly need a lefty in the bullpen. A look at their roster shows a need. I'm all in with us parting with a righty, as we have quite an excess.
At one time, we had 4 viable left-handers in the pen. Where has Rich Hill ended up? Has he signed with another organization?
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sdl
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Who the hell is Stan Papi?
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Post by sdl on Dec 24, 2012 8:16:20 GMT -5
So essentially the deal is agreed to .....except for the players involved......lol Which happens all the time. Remember the infamous PTBNL or "player to be named later"? Don't the Pirates still owe us one for McKenry?
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