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Red Sox agree to trade for Joel Hanrahan
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Post by jioh on Dec 26, 2012 13:31:31 GMT -5
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Post by remember04 on Dec 26, 2012 13:37:11 GMT -5
No, the biggest "sting" is losing a young, talented relief pitcher who has shown better peripherals than Daniel Bard (as a reliever) and Andrew Bailey and is under team control for four years. I am frankly shocked that so many posters here have Melancon written off as a spare part when he has shown the ability to miss bats, limit walks, and get ground balls. I'm pretty confident that he will outperform Hanrahan in 2013 at a fraction of the price. You're not the only one who's not too happy about losing Melancon. He's a better pitcher than he showed last year and like you said, we're dealing 4 years of him for an expensive rental in Hanrahan who will be pitching the 9th inning with some massive control problems. I figured Melancon was in the deal, but my hope was it would be for somebody they can really use as opposed to a good hitting 2b that's really better off as trade bait. Unless Pedroia goes down for an extended stretch, I don't see Holt doing much for the Sox. I was hoping that somehow Ben would get a useful pitching prospect or a LH hitting OF if they were going to part with Melancon. Sums my thoughts up nicely.
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Post by soxfan06 on Dec 26, 2012 13:48:05 GMT -5
Actually, after digging into the stats more and more and actually looking at things in the big picture, I am liking this more and more.
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Post by jmei on Dec 26, 2012 13:50:13 GMT -5
People saw Melancon's "I think I just bled through my pad" face and determined that he simply couldn't have any type of career in the Boston Environment. Melancon probably would go over to Pittsburgh and have a nice year, but it doesn't mean he was ever going to do it in Boston. Not saying Hanrahan is right for this role either, but at least he hasn't shit the bed.............yet Oh, sort of like how Nancy Drew wasn't clutch (until the grant slam in the '07 ALCS) or how Bellhorn couldn't handle playoff pressure (two for twenty-five during the first seven games of the '04 playoffs) until he homered in games 6 and 7 of the ALCS that year? Give me a break. Melancon closed for Team USA and was very good after he returned to the major leagues in June. If you want to give up on him based solely on a stale narrative with the only evidence being four appearances in April and whatever Steinbrenner fed to the media to justify his trade to Houston three years ago, chances are you're making a mistake.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Dec 26, 2012 14:12:06 GMT -5
Put me in the camp of those who don't like this deal for the following reasons...
Hanrahan is a one year rental who will not receive a qualifying offer (or net anything significant at trade deadline), with questionable control Melancon is being traded at a low point (with BobbyV contributions to thank for ruining his confidence) This trade is not going to help Bailey's trade value which is also pretty low at this point Holt appears to be a slight upgrade over DeJesus; however the Red Sox have much greater need for LH OF/1B
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Post by hammerhead on Dec 26, 2012 14:17:06 GMT -5
The dude ended up in AAA..... Not saying it means everything, but that is more than just a bad stretch.
He was on the verge of tears on the Fenway mound Vs. Tampa
The guy came up and pitched for a team that was completely "mailing it in" for a manager who was a buffoon and the pressure was entirely moved. If that doesn't prove the point then I don't know what does.
The guy pitches well in AAA, he pitches well only after the team is out of it etc. etc. etc.
sorry, he can have a nice career closing for NL central bottom dwellers. He ain't gonna do it in the cream of the AL East.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 26, 2012 14:23:44 GMT -5
Put me in the camp of those who don't like this deal for the following reasons... Hanrahan is a one year rental who will not receive a qualifying offer (or net anything significant at trade deadline), with questionable control Melancon is being traded at a low point (with BobbyV contributions to thank for ruining his confidence) This trade is not going to help Bailey's trade value which is also pretty low at this point Holt appears to be a slight upgrade over DeJesus; however the Red Sox have much greater need for LH OF/1B I'm on the other side of this for almost the complete opposite reasons. If Hanrahan has a good season we are likely to re-sign him, with renewed discipline and cash on hand I'm sure we can pay a fair market vaule if he proves worth it. Melancon came off a year as Houston's closer and cost control is even more important for them, yet they gave him up for an injury-prone Lowrie. Not sure his value wasn't already low before he came to Boston. I doubt Bailey goes anywhere, we've been burned by the volatility of relievers many times in the Theo era and BC appears to be all about quality depth in the pen. No reason to trade him either, we have space now. I agree Holt at first glance appears to be a better option than DeJesus, but adding him does not exclude any other upgrades at all, especially since he can play at AAA this year if necessary. Obviously Hanrahan is no sure thing, but giving up what I saw as 4 guys who are not central to the present or future of this organization while picking up a potential back-end solution is fine by me. (jmei I realize that last point is highly subjective)
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 26, 2012 14:32:39 GMT -5
sorry, he can have a nice career closing for NL central bottom dwellers. He ain't gonna do it in the cream of the AL East. But couldn't you say the same thing about Hanrahan? Last I checked the Pirates have been NL Central cellar dwellers for the past 20 years.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 26, 2012 14:40:29 GMT -5
sorry, he can have a nice career closing for NL central bottom dwellers. He ain't gonna do it in the cream of the AL East. But couldn't you say the same thing about Hanrahan? Last I checked the Pirates have been NL Central cellar dwellers for the past 20 years. And, if Melancon is closing for cellar dwellars, that means he pitching against better teams and taking on a more significant role than he would have had in Boston.
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Post by jmei on Dec 26, 2012 14:42:03 GMT -5
The dude ended up in AAA..... Not saying it means everything, but that is more than just a bad stretch. He was on the verge of tears on the Fenway mound Vs. Tampa Yes, he was pretty terrible in April (11 ER, 5 home runs given up), but it was over the course of four appearances. Over the rest of the season, he put up a 4.18 ERA with a 40:11 K/BB. I'm not saying you ignore that stretch, but you also can't ignore his very solid four month stretch over the rest of the season. Melancon made his first appearance after being recalled from AAA on June 11th, when the Red Sox were 29-32 and 6.5 games out of the AL East lead and the second Wild Card spot. He then proceeded to give up one run over his next sixteen innings pitched. In the last game of that stretch on July 18th, the Red Sox were one game out of the second Wild Card spot. He pitched very well for a team that was on the cusp of playoff contention and well before the season became a lost cause. It is the epitome of misplaced arrogance to think that you have to have a special gene to pitch in Boston or New York. This is exactly why fans in the rest of the country hate Red Sox fans.
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Post by jmei on Dec 26, 2012 14:48:01 GMT -5
Sorry, two nit-picky things. If Hanrahan has a good season we are likely to re-sign him, with renewed discipline and cash on hand I'm sure we can pay a fair market vaule if he proves worth it. We could have just signed him next offseason. Granted, spending a year in Boston may make Hanrahan more fond of the place, but is that little bit of advantage worth the cost? Lowrie is injury-prone, but he plays at an All-Star level when healthy. He hit .244/.331/.438 and put up 2.5 fWAR in less than two-thirds of a season in 2012 and is under team control in 2013 and 2014.
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Post by elguapo on Dec 26, 2012 14:53:07 GMT -5
It's clear to me that the Sox place a significant value on players with options remaining as part of the depth initiative. In that light, Holt is a meaningful upgrade from De Jesus. Presumably they are satisfied he can field SS in the majors, at least as a backup.
Sands was bumped down the depth chart in his last option year with the additions of RHH Gomes & Napoli. They apparently like Hassan for LF & Gomez for 1B depth.
Pimentel was on the outs in his last option year.
Along the same lines, the Sox added a couple of lower-ceiling AAA players, Hassan & Butler, to the 40-man, who provide immediate depth & roster flexibility (avoiding the add-and-DFA juggling of the past few years).
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 26, 2012 14:53:09 GMT -5
Joel Hanrahan's worst season in MLB was 2009: 64.0 IP, 73 H, 34 ER, 34 BB, 72 K Mark Melancon's best season in MLB was 2011: 74.1 IP, 65 H, 23 ER, 26 BB, 66 K
Those are their best and worst seasons, and those years are relatively outlier-ish in each direction. Hanrahan is unquestionably better than Melancon. The question is by how much. Here's their MLB career averages:
Melancon: 8.1 H/9, 0.9 HR/9, 3.2 BB/9, 8.0 K/9 Hanrahan: 8.1 H/9, 0.8 HR/9, 4.3 BB/9, 9.9 K/9
So Hanrahan has historically walked more guys but has been much better striking guys out.
I'm not quite ready to concede that Hanrahan isn't better than Melancon. I think the question is really whether he's better enough given the players' different team control situations and to justify the rest of the swap. I do think that this does say something about what the Sox think of Melancon's mental toughness - something we wrote about in his bio here on the site based on his performance before this season.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Dec 26, 2012 14:59:11 GMT -5
The Red Sox have not been close to the cream of the crop since August 2011. It is going to take them at least another year, possibly two years, for them to field a team that has a legitimate shot at the World Series. The bandaid approach to this offseason has done nothing to build for the future.
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Post by remember04 on Dec 26, 2012 15:02:51 GMT -5
I wonder if we'll be trading for Melancon in a couple of years when he has one year left on his deal and the sox need bullpen help?
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Post by hammerhead on Dec 26, 2012 15:07:21 GMT -5
[/quote] It is the epitome of misplaced arrogance to think that you have to have a special gene to pitch in Boston or New York. This is exactly why fans in the rest of the country hate Red Sox fans. [/quote]
If you think that having increased media scrutiny, pitching against better line-ups (including a DH), having fickle fans, cold weather, higher expectations etc. etc. etc. doesn't have an impact on some player's overall numbers and psyche's then there is absolutely nothing I can say to argue the point.
I along with just about every other scout and baseball GM simply happen to disagree and it has been proven. Some player's simply can't play in Boston and New York.
And by the way....... That is not even close to the reason the rest of the country (not even remotely true)hates Red Sox fans...
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Post by joshv02 on Dec 26, 2012 15:07:29 GMT -5
Joel Hanrahan's worst season in MLB was 2009: 64.0 IP, 73 H, 34 ER, 34 BB, 72 K Mark Melancon's best season in MLB was 2011: 74.1 IP, 65 H, 23 ER, 26 BB, 66 K Those are their best and worst seasons, and those years are relatively outlier-ish in each direction. Hanrahan is unquestionably better than Melancon. The question is by how much. Here's their MLB career averages: Melancon: 8.1 H/9, 0.9 HR/9, 3.2 BB/9, 8.0 K/9 Hanrahan: 8.1 H/9, 0.8 HR/9, 4.3 BB/9, 9.9 K/9 So Hanrahan has historically walked more guys but has been much better striking guys out. I'm not quite ready to concede that Hanrahan isn't better than Melancon. I think the question is really whether he's better enough given the players' different team control situations and to justify the rest of the swap. I do think that this does say something about what the Sox think of Melancon's mental toughness - something we wrote about in his bio here on the site based on his performance before this season. But, if you wrote about it on this site before the season, the Red Sox appearently didn't care and now do care. Hanrahan is unquestionable a better bet for 2013, but he also is paid ~$6mm more and you give up 4 years of control for 1. That is a weird trade for a team that is really an 85 win team with the addition, no? Obviously, Holt is a better fit on this team than De Jesus (it isn't close - left handed/options > not being on 40 man but not being very good). Hanrahan is a better player than Melecon in 2013. But, if I'm Pittsburgh I do that trade every day, and if I'm Boston I have to think about it. No?
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Post by hammerhead on Dec 26, 2012 15:14:59 GMT -5
Not if the FO really thinks they can contend this season... If they think the playoffs are within reach 1 hard throwing reliever could be the difference down the stretch.
Word is also out there that Hanrahan will come to ST as the closer. If he's used in that role the FO obviously sees him as much more than just an ancillary piece to the bullpen puzzle.
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Post by Chris Mellen on Dec 26, 2012 15:28:43 GMT -5
Melancon made his first appearance after being recalled from AAA on June 11th, when the Red Sox were 29-32 and 6.5 games out of the AL East lead and the second Wild Card spot. He then proceeded to give up one run over his next sixteen innings pitched. In the last game of that stretch on July 18th, the Red Sox were one game out of the second Wild Card spot. He pitched very well for a team that was on the cusp of playoff contention and well before the season became a lost cause. Melancon wasn't being used as much more than a mop-up man or in situations where the team was trailing. Rarely was he brought into situations of high leverage after the recall. I get what you are trying to say about the games having meaning for the team, but if you look through the game logs Melancon was being used in low leverage/ low pressure situations as the guy to chew up some innings when the score was wider for either side. The Red Sox lost 8 of the 14 games you mentioned in that stretch for Melancon and the wins were lopsided.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 26, 2012 15:30:14 GMT -5
Hanrahan is unquestionably better than Melancon. The question is by how much. Here's their MLB career averages: Melancon: 8.1 H/9, 0.9 HR/9, 3.2 BB/9, 8.0 K/9 Hanrahan: 8.1 H/9, 0.8 HR/9, 4.3 BB/9, 9.9 K/9 So Hanrahan has historically walked more guys but has been much better striking guys out. I'm not quite ready to concede that Hanrahan isn't better than Melancon. I think the question is really whether he's better enough given the players' different team control situations and to justify the rest of the swap. I do think that this does say something about what the Sox think of Melancon's mental toughness - something we wrote about in his bio here on the site based on his performance before this season. I agree with your overall point, but you are really killing your argument with those stats. Since many if us believe that obp is the most valuable of statistics and Melancon has shown that he is better at limiting obp in these stat lines.
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Post by elguapo on Dec 26, 2012 15:36:35 GMT -5
Hanrahan is potentially a good trade chip at the deadline if things don't pan out for the Sox, or Bard bounces back, et cetera. They'd even be able to eat some salary for a better return.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 26, 2012 15:45:19 GMT -5
The one fairly clear negative conclusion that the majority of us can agree with (i think) is that the Boston FO's value of Melancon dropped dramatically over the past year. This was a failure to accurately judge the ability of a player either at the time of the trade with Houston, or now.
The Red Sox upgraded their bullpen and bench/depth at the cost of fringy talent. The Pirates shed payroll and gained 4 MLB ready role-players with long term team control
I agree with joshv's assessment. But this may have been the best trade available for the Red Sox to clear 40 man space - so at least they received value in return. And in the Red Sox are out of the race at the trade deadline, then I'm sure Harahan can be traded for prospects.
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Post by hammerhead on Dec 26, 2012 15:56:15 GMT -5
The Sox got a closer, one of the best available (without paying Soriano's demands) without giving up anyone with whom the org views as a future cog in the 2015-2016 juggernaut.
I'm not all giddy about the trade, because I liked Sands, and I think 1year of Hanrahan at 7mil is too expensive. In the end though, it's not my money and they didn't part with anybody who can't be replaced.
A solid reliever, a roster space and cleared away some floatsam for two usable parts is not a trade to get bent over.
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Post by soxfanatic on Dec 26, 2012 15:57:20 GMT -5
With Ben Cherington traveling, Red Sox assistant general manager Brian O'Halloran spoke to reporters this afternoon about the trade with the Pirates.
He said that manager John Farrell spoke to Joel Hanrahan and Andrew Bailey and told them that Hanrahan would be the closer going into spring training with Bailey as one of the set-up men Peter Abraham
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Post by sdsoxfan on Dec 26, 2012 16:14:56 GMT -5
I am decidedly in favor of this trade as it improved the Sox for 2013 for excess bit players.
Initial Hanrahan trade rumors included Doubront/Morales and/or Iglesias. Much happier with what we did give up to get proven All Star closer with 4 straight years of high strikeout rates, era of 2.59 and 0.9 hits per inning. He obviously will need to cut down on 2012 walk rate.
Sox saw an opportunity to significantly upgrade their closer and bullpen depth at a time when they needed to clear a couple of 40 man spots. This move improves Sox by minimum of 1-2 wins for 2013 and perhaps pushes Bailey to improve his conditioning and performance. Now we dont' have to hold our breath every 9th inning during 2012 with Bailey/Aceves/Melancon.
This is the type of trade Pirates have to do. Higher cost All Star closer and high energy utility infielder for a quantity package of potential.
Sure we'd have rather traded Mortenson than Melanson, but Pittsburg GM isn't stupid.
Melancon could do well in Pittsburg but was awful in Boston. He never pitched a high leverage situation after April and would likely not have had an opportunity in Boston with Bailey/Tazawa/Uehara/Miller/Bard available.
Sands had some power potential, but with Gomes/Napoli/Gomez wasn't going to get an opporutnity in Boston.
Pimental wasn't going to keep 40 man spot and Sox would have lost him for nothing next year unless he finally puts it all together in 2013.
DeJesus cleared waivers last week and anyone could have taken him.
If Hanrahan puts up All Star numbers similar to Paps, Sox could trade him at deadline, resign him or extend qualifying $13M offer for 2014 first round draft pick compensation. Sox were happy going year to year with Paps as long as they were in contention.
BC needed to package up excess non-essential talent that wasn't in 2013-2014 plans and trade for proven player which he did. My only question is whether he could have packaged similar talent for young cost controlled first baseman.
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