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The Official 2016 World Series Thread
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Post by ray88h66 on Nov 2, 2016 23:54:48 GMT -5
Glad I stayed up. Can sleep when I'm dead.
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Post by bosox81 on Nov 3, 2016 0:25:07 GMT -5
I really like this young Cubs team. They will be great for a long time. What a job by Theo.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Nov 3, 2016 0:26:56 GMT -5
This was so reminiscent of 2004 and so many people who once were with the Sox. It was a great game and, by a small margin, I am happy the Cubs won. I just wish Rizzo, Lester, Lackey, Francona, Epstein, etc., still were with the Sox.
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Post by thursty on Nov 3, 2016 0:33:39 GMT -5
That game was chaos
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 3, 2016 0:36:50 GMT -5
Doesn't Mike Montgomery just sound like a guy who would give up a walk-off homer to lose the Cubs a world series? No he sounds like the guy who recorded the most important outs in Chicago Cubs history.
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Post by scarr0214 on Nov 3, 2016 0:43:02 GMT -5
Doesn't Mike Montgomery just sound like a guy who would give up a walk-off homer to lose the Cubs a world series? No he sounds like the guy who recorded the most important outs in Chicago Cubs history. He will never pay for a beer in Chicago again.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 3, 2016 0:44:54 GMT -5
The Theo ballwashing is going to make me nauseous. Why is it ball-washing? Because he was a central figure in ending two major World Championship droughts? The fact of the matter is he won 2 World Championships with the Red Sox. He put a lot of finishing touches on the talented teams that Duquette built but could never finish off and he build the Cubs from the ground up. The "Oh anybody can tank and rebuild and win a Championship" theme is nonsense. The Cubs have been doing nothing but losing for 100 years, so they must have missed that memo that it's so easy to rebuild and win. Theo's Cubs teams lost with a purpose and he built that team through shrewd trades and great drafting, particularly when the rules were changed so he couldn't outspend everybody in the draft. Hell, Theo did more for the 2016 Red Sox than Dombrowski did as I looked around and saw Ortiz, Pedroia, Betts, Bogaerts, and Bradley. The fact of the matter is tonight Theo has pretty much punched his ticket to Cooperstown. Hope John Henry is satisfied with himself. He took Lucchino's side (Mr. Let's hire Bobby Valentine as manager) over Theo who wanted the autonomy that Henry was quite willing to give Dombrowski. What it boiled down to is ageism. Theo had to answer to Lucchino who is a generation older, but Dombrowski doesn't have to answer to Sam Kennedy who is about 15 - 20 years younger. Theo knows how to build Championship teams. Lucchino knows marketing, but not how to build Championship teams. Theo deserves the ballwashing he gets around here and Red Sox management had a great thing going with Theo and Tito and messed it up.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 3, 2016 0:45:30 GMT -5
No he sounds like the guy who recorded the most important outs in Chicago Cubs history. He will never pay for a beer in Chicago again. None of those Cubs players will ever have to pay for a beer in Chicago again. I wish Ernie Banks and Ron Santo had lived to see this moment.
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Post by tizzle on Nov 3, 2016 0:46:20 GMT -5
Doesn't Mike Montgomery just sound like a guy who would give up a walk-off homer to lose the Cubs a world series? No he sounds like the guy who recorded the most important outs in Chicago Cubs history. It was only one out, but yeah.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 3, 2016 0:53:01 GMT -5
Congratulations to the 2016 World Champion Chicago Cubs. I'm so happy for them and their fanbase. I really thought they'd fold after they blew the game in the last of the 8th and let an opportunity slip by in the 9th. I thought Chapman might lose the game in the last of the 9th when Cleveland had their chance to win, but he stiffened, and I was shocked seeing Carl Edwards Jr come on to get the biggest outs in history.
I was amazed he got two easy outs and then he totally got nervous and Mike Montgomery has the distinction of being THE GUY WHO GOT THE LAST OUT. Fortunately for the Cubs when Tito removed Crisp because of his weak arm it stuck them with fly swatter Michael Martinez as the Indians last chance.
As much as I identified with the Cubs ecstasy of breaking their long, long drought (reminiscent of the 2004 Red Sox), I also felt the pain of the long suffering Indians fans whose drought now stands at 69 seasons. They have now lost their last 4 World Series (1954 and 1995 when they were juggernaut .700 winning percentage teams, 1997 when they were two outs away from ultimate victory, and now 2016 when they were up 3 games to 1 with the last two in their own ballpark).
I was glad that they came back with two outs in the 8th although I felt sad for Cubs fans (but happy that Chapman screwed up) and I'm glad they had a chance to win it all in the last of the 9th but they came up totally empty.
What a fantastic World Series and what an epic Game 7. Nights like tonight remind me why baseball is the greatest sport in the world. It was nice to put aside my Red Sox allegiances and truly enjoy baseball as a baseball fan. What a pleasure.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 3, 2016 0:54:13 GMT -5
No he sounds like the guy who recorded the most important outs in Chicago Cubs history. It was only one out, but yeah. That's all he needed. Kind of like a young Mike Timlin getting the last out of the 1992 World Series that got the Blue Jays their first World Championship except this one was way more meaningful given the history of the Cubs.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 3, 2016 0:59:17 GMT -5
The Theo ballwashing is going to make me nauseous. Why is it ball-washing? Because he was a central figure in ending two major World Championship droughts? The fact of the matter is he won 2 World Championships with the Red Sox. He put a lot of finishing touches on the talented teams that Duquette built but could never finish off and he build the Cubs from the ground up. The "Oh anybody can tank and rebuild and win a Championship" theme is nonsense. The Cubs have been doing nothing but losing for 100 years, so they must have missed that memo that it's so easy to rebuild and win. Theo's Cubs teams lost with a purpose and he built that team through shrewd trades and great drafting, particularly when the rules were changed so he couldn't outspend everybody in the draft. Hell, Theo did more for the 2016 Red Sox than Dombrowski did as I looked around and saw Ortiz, Pedroia, Betts, Bogaerts, and Bradley. The fact of the matter is tonight Theo has pretty much punched his ticket to Cooperstown. Hope John Henry is satisfied with himself. He took Lucchino's side (Mr. Let's hire Bobby Valentine as manager) over Theo who wanted the autonomy that Henry was quite willing to give Dombrowski. What it boiled down to is ageism. Theo had to answer to Lucchino who is a generation older, but Dombrowski doesn't have to answer to Sam Kennedy who is about 15 - 20 years younger. Theo knows how to build Championship teams. Lucchino knows marketing, but not how to build Championship teams. Theo deserves the ballwashing he gets around here and Red Sox management had a great thing going with Theo and Tito and messed it up. Love it how you only look at the good and not the bad. Don't get me wrong Theo is a great GM/President, but he has his flaws too. Ben brought in just as much young talent as Theo did. Part of the reason why Theo left is he corned himself with a bunch of bad contracts that Ben had to get rid of. Theo is doing it again with deals like Hayward.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 3, 2016 1:05:47 GMT -5
Why is it ball-washing? Because he was a central figure in ending two major World Championship droughts? The fact of the matter is he won 2 World Championships with the Red Sox. He put a lot of finishing touches on the talented teams that Duquette built but could never finish off and he build the Cubs from the ground up. The "Oh anybody can tank and rebuild and win a Championship" theme is nonsense. The Cubs have been doing nothing but losing for 100 years, so they must have missed that memo that it's so easy to rebuild and win. Theo's Cubs teams lost with a purpose and he built that team through shrewd trades and great drafting, particularly when the rules were changed so he couldn't outspend everybody in the draft. Hell, Theo did more for the 2016 Red Sox than Dombrowski did as I looked around and saw Ortiz, Pedroia, Betts, Bogaerts, and Bradley. The fact of the matter is tonight Theo has pretty much punched his ticket to Cooperstown. Hope John Henry is satisfied with himself. He took Lucchino's side (Mr. Let's hire Bobby Valentine as manager) over Theo who wanted the autonomy that Henry was quite willing to give Dombrowski. What it boiled down to is ageism. Theo had to answer to Lucchino who is a generation older, but Dombrowski doesn't have to answer to Sam Kennedy who is about 15 - 20 years younger. Theo knows how to build Championship teams. Lucchino knows marketing, but not how to build Championship teams. Theo deserves the ballwashing he gets around here and Red Sox management had a great thing going with Theo and Tito and messed it up. Love it how you only look at the good and not the bad. Don't get me wrong Theo is a great GM/President, but he has his flaws too. Ben brought in just as much young talent as Theo did. Part of the reason why Theo left is he corned himself with a bunch of bad contracts that Ben had to get rid of. Theo is doing it again with deals like Hayward. Look at the Red Sox record with Theo Epstein as GM. Really look at it. The Red Sox averaged 93 wins per year. Sure he wasn't perfect, but look at the record, he did a helluva lot more right than he did wrong. Toward the end of his stint in Boston he was betraying his own ideals and he was hating what he was becoming. THAT'S why he quit. Ricketts was smart enough an owner to trust Theo to build the team as he sees fit without having to fight over what a "Bridge year" does to the marketing of the Red Sox brand and BS stuff like that. Theo's building of the farm system was excellent, his trades are usually shrewd, his small pickups are usually smart, and his free agent signings are a mixed bag at best. You also forgot to mention that he gave Jon Lester the money the Red Sox wouldn't. I'd say that's working out for him alright. Would you? How does the Zobrist signing look to you? Heyward was a bad signing, as was Lugo, but was Drew really a bad signing? Even the Lackey signings were decent in retrospect. So I'd say all in all, he's done damn well.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 3, 2016 1:24:12 GMT -5
Love it how you only look at the good and not the bad. Don't get me wrong Theo is a great GM/President, but he has his flaws too. Ben brought in just as much young talent as Theo did. Part of the reason why Theo left is he corned himself with a bunch of bad contracts that Ben had to get rid of. Theo is doing it again with deals like Hayward. Look at the Red Sox record with Theo Epstein as GM. Really look at it. The Red Sox averaged 93 wins per year. Sure he wasn't perfect, but look at the record, he did a helluva lot more right than he did wrong. Toward the end of his stint in Boston he was betraying his own ideals and he was hating what he was becoming. THAT'S why he quit. Ricketts was smart enough an owner to trust Theo to build the team as he sees fit without having to fight over what a "Bridge year" does to the marketing of the Red Sox brand and BS stuff like that. Theo's building of the farm system was excellent, his trades are usually shrewd, his small pickups are usually smart, and his free agent signings are a mixed bag at best. You also forgot to mention that he gave Jon Lester the money the Red Sox wouldn't. I'd say that's working out for him alright. Would you? How does the Zobrist signing look to you? Heyward was a bad signing, as was Lugo, but was Drew really a bad signing? Even the Lackey signings were decent in retrospect. So I'd say all in all, he's done damn well. But that Theo's weakness for me, he's great at building teams or improving a team he took over, but seemed to struggle with the win every year thing. Cubs gave him a ton of time to build team, which was smart, but can Theo keep them championship level for the long haul? The trades he made to stock system can't be made when contending year in and year out. I would say he sucks at free agent deals. Sure the Lester deal was great, but he knew the player, that was low risk. Deals like Heyward and the Crawford deal can really cripple a team in the long run. Let's see if Theo can sustain it in Chicago, because just like after we won in 2004, they will have increased pressure to win every year. One last thing, the Beckett and Lowel trade wasn't made by Theo and we don't win in 2007 without it.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 3, 2016 6:25:42 GMT -5
The big question. Will Theo's HOF plaque have his whole name or just say Theo ?
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Post by soxcentral on Nov 3, 2016 7:07:19 GMT -5
So does that instantly rank as the greatest World Series game ever? '91 Game 7, '75 Game 6, '60 Game 7 and '88 Game 1 are the only ones I can think of that might top it. But I don't think any of them do.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 3, 2016 7:09:51 GMT -5
The big question. Will Theo's HOF plaque have his whole name or just say Theo ? His whole name, but he'll be wearing a gorilla suit.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 3, 2016 7:43:58 GMT -5
I think this just cemented Theo as the best executive of all time. Which curse should he break next? The Cleveland Indians. Although they already have a President of Baseball Operations (Chris Antonetti), they could make Theo the Chairman/CEO of Baseball Operations!
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Post by libertine on Nov 3, 2016 8:47:21 GMT -5
The greatest game 7 of a world series I can recall seeing in a long, long, time. The Cubs, imho, won it despite Maddon. I really do think Maddon is one of the better managers in baseball, except when he goes into over-managerial mode which he did in game 7 (and game 6 using Chapman in a 5 run game). Too many things to go over right now but I was screaming at him (or the tv screen) when he pulled Hendricks in the 5th. Francona handled his pitching staff that way out of necessity due to SP injuries. Maddon has one of the better rotations in baseball, and it was a healthy, relatively well rested, rotation.
Very happy for the Cubs and their fans (us Sox fans know all about "legendary curses"). Finally what a way to end a career for David Ross! I really loved that guy when he played for us in 2013, and helped bring another title to Boston and he is a very popular player among everybody he has played with...
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Nov 3, 2016 10:51:10 GMT -5
Why is it ball-washing? Because he was a central figure in ending two major World Championship droughts? The fact of the matter is he won 2 World Championships with the Red Sox. He put a lot of finishing touches on the talented teams that Duquette built but could never finish off and he build the Cubs from the ground up. The "Oh anybody can tank and rebuild and win a Championship" theme is nonsense. The Cubs have been doing nothing but losing for 100 years, so they must have missed that memo that it's so easy to rebuild and win. Theo's Cubs teams lost with a purpose and he built that team through shrewd trades and great drafting, particularly when the rules were changed so he couldn't outspend everybody in the draft. Hell, Theo did more for the 2016 Red Sox than Dombrowski did as I looked around and saw Ortiz, Pedroia, Betts, Bogaerts, and Bradley. The fact of the matter is tonight Theo has pretty much punched his ticket to Cooperstown. Hope John Henry is satisfied with himself. He took Lucchino's side (Mr. Let's hire Bobby Valentine as manager) over Theo who wanted the autonomy that Henry was quite willing to give Dombrowski. What it boiled down to is ageism. Theo had to answer to Lucchino who is a generation older, but Dombrowski doesn't have to answer to Sam Kennedy who is about 15 - 20 years younger. Theo knows how to build Championship teams. Lucchino knows marketing, but not how to build Championship teams. Theo deserves the ballwashing he gets around here and Red Sox management had a great thing going with Theo and Tito and messed it up. I think Theo is a generational talent. The success he had with this franchise was great for all of us. What he has accomplished with the Cubs is really extraordinary. He deserves a lot of commendation and credit, and I am certainly willing to give it to a point. With the Sox, the drought bust was less significant. He was handed a dream job and a team / organization whose 86 year drought had a bit of bad luck sprinkled in it. Matter of fact, post free agency, the 1975, 1986 and 2003 teams were right there to win the title. I refer to ball washing because I am a fan of the Boston Red Sox and their organization and players and fans. I am very careful to laud anything outside that perimeter. I certainly feel no loyalty to him now that he is on the Cubs. That may not be politically correct, but that's the way I feel.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 3, 2016 11:49:36 GMT -5
I think this just cemented Theo as the best executive of all time. Which curse should he break next? The Cleveland Indians. Although they already have a President of Baseball Operations (Chris Antonetti), they could make Theo the Chairman/CEO of Baseball Operations! I was gonna say he should become Susan Lucci's agent, but she finally won one a few years back, right?
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Post by ramireja on Nov 3, 2016 11:53:05 GMT -5
Love it how you only look at the good and not the bad. Don't get me wrong Theo is a great GM/President, but he has his flaws too. Ben brought in just as much young talent as Theo did. Part of the reason why Theo left is he corned himself with a bunch of bad contracts that Ben had to get rid of. Theo is doing it again with deals like Hayward. Its not really looking at only the good and not the bad. Its more like looking at the net value. Of course every FA signing or trade isn't going to be an A+ transaction. However, its pretty hard to dispute the net success that Theo has brought to the Red Sox and Cubs franchises. Good for him. I'll always be thankful for his years with us, and I for one am not bitter that he's continuing to have success with another franchise (hey at least its in the NL).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 3, 2016 13:42:51 GMT -5
Love it how you only look at the good and not the bad. Don't get me wrong Theo is a great GM/President, but he has his flaws too. Ben brought in just as much young talent as Theo did. Part of the reason why Theo left is he corned himself with a bunch of bad contracts that Ben had to get rid of. Theo is doing it again with deals like Hayward. Its not really looking at only the good and not the bad. Its more like looking at the net value. Of course every FA signing or trade isn't going to be an A+ transaction. However, its pretty hard to dispute the net success that Theo has brought to the Red Sox and Cubs franchises. Good for him. I'll always be thankful for his years with us, and I for one am not bitter that he's continuing to have success with another franchise (hey at least its in the NL). See I totally agree with that. I just can't stand the people saying we should have never let Theo go. He left on his own accord, we didn't fire him or release him. We wanted him back, but he wanted to move on. Some people think he walks on water. Two best teams with the most young talent going forward are the Cubs and Red Sox. So congrats to Theo, but when we play you in world series next year prepare to get your butt kicked.
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Post by bosox81 on Nov 3, 2016 14:53:51 GMT -5
Look at the Red Sox record with Theo Epstein as GM. Really look at it. The Red Sox averaged 93 wins per year. Sure he wasn't perfect, but look at the record, he did a helluva lot more right than he did wrong. Toward the end of his stint in Boston he was betraying his own ideals and he was hating what he was becoming. THAT'S why he quit. Ricketts was smart enough an owner to trust Theo to build the team as he sees fit without having to fight over what a "Bridge year" does to the marketing of the Red Sox brand and BS stuff like that. Theo's building of the farm system was excellent, his trades are usually shrewd, his small pickups are usually smart, and his free agent signings are a mixed bag at best. You also forgot to mention that he gave Jon Lester the money the Red Sox wouldn't. I'd say that's working out for him alright. Would you? How does the Zobrist signing look to you? Heyward was a bad signing, as was Lugo, but was Drew really a bad signing? Even the Lackey signings were decent in retrospect. So I'd say all in all, he's done damn well. But that Theo's weakness for me, he's great at building teams or improving a team he took over, but seemed to struggle with the win every year thing. Cubs gave him a ton of time to build team, which was smart, but can Theo keep them championship level for the long haul? The trades he made to stock system can't be made when contending year in and year out. I would say he sucks at free agent deals. Sure the Lester deal was great, but he knew the player, that was low risk. Deals like Heyward and the Crawford deal can really cripple a team in the long run. Let's see if Theo can sustain it in Chicago, because just like after we won in 2004, they will have increased pressure to win every year. One last thing, the Beckett and Lowel trade wasn't made by Theo and we don't win in 2007 without it. It certainly doesn't look like Dombrowski is any better at it.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 3, 2016 20:02:53 GMT -5
Its not really looking at only the good and not the bad. Its more like looking at the net value. Of course every FA signing or trade isn't going to be an A+ transaction. However, its pretty hard to dispute the net success that Theo has brought to the Red Sox and Cubs franchises. Good for him. I'll always be thankful for his years with us, and I for one am not bitter that he's continuing to have success with another franchise (hey at least its in the NL). See I totally agree with that. I just can't stand the people saying we should have never let Theo go. He left on his own accord, we didn't fire him or release him. We wanted him back, but he wanted to move on. Some people think he walks on water. Two best teams with the most young talent going forward are the Cubs and Red Sox. So congrats to Theo, but when we play you in world series next year prepare to get your butt kicked. Nobody said he walks on water. What's being said is that he's the best GM in the game and he's the best GM the Sox ever had. I don't understand the complaint that his teams don't win year after year. The Red Sox worst season with Theo at the helm was 86-76 in 2006 when the team had a major rash of injuries that torpedoed the season. The team consistently surpassed 90 wins, routinely won 95 games per year and averaged 93 wins per year and had 2 championships. And as far as 2007 goes if the Sox don't make the deal they probably don't win the Series, but if they didn't make the deal, perhaps they would have won in 2008 when Hanley plus whatever pitcher they would have picked up if they hadn't gotten Beckett would have exceeded the value of an injured Beckett and an injured Lowell. We'll never know and I'll take the guaranteed 2007 title but it wasn't a slam dunk that the deal should have been made. As far as Theo leaving, it was of his own accord, but we know why he really left. He was in a power struggle with Lucchino who didn't share the same vision of building a team that Theo did. It's really that simple. It's a power struggle that he hasn't been having in Chicago.
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