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2018 Red Sox roster building
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Post by swingingbunt on Feb 1, 2018 0:10:17 GMT -5
I think it's about the right place to be in negotiations, yes. I'm not looking for a negotiation with my best player. I'm looking for a deal. 6 and 150 million dollars probably gets a Mookie extension done. He'll be worth that over the next 6 years, I guarantee that. There will be a negotiation whether you want one or not. If you start at 6 and 150 then they ask for 180+. You have to start somewhere, and DD started at a good place. It still takes two to make a deal happen.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 1, 2018 0:37:52 GMT -5
I'm not looking for a negotiation with my best player. I'm looking for a deal. 6 and 150 million dollars probably gets a Mookie extension done. He'll be worth that over the next 6 years, I guarantee that. There will be a negotiation whether you want one or not. If you start at 6 and 150 then they ask for 180+. You have to start somewhere, and DD started at a good place. It still takes two to make a deal happen. That is not necessarily true. If you break the market on a record deal, you have a REALLY good shot of signing him to that offer. The 6/150 would be a record breaker in this case. If then you couldn't get him to sign at THAT number, then you gave it a good effort to extend him. 5/100? That's nothing imo. That's more insulting if I'm Mookie.
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Post by swingingbunt on Feb 1, 2018 0:44:44 GMT -5
Then you're again getting into the idea of paying Mookie like Trout when he isn't close to the player Trout is. It just doesn't make sense.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 1, 2018 2:42:11 GMT -5
Then you're again getting into the idea of paying Mookie like Trout when he isn't close to the player Trout is. It just doesn't make sense. Trout took a team friendly deal in the first place. Trout could of made free agency this off-season and made 40-45 million a year for the next 10 plus years if he did reach free agency. It does make a lot of sense to reach a LITTLE bit for your best player who is really young, especially if he'll be worth the 6 years for 25 million a year (he easily will be worth that). I've never seen a better Red Sox player that grew up in the system that deserves an overpay than Mookie Betts. He's the perfect fit for this team in deep RF in Fenway Park. Maybe Devers will work his way into the conversation someday, but it's hard to reach the level that Mookie has made here and not make a case to overpay him to keep him here.
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 1, 2018 8:18:37 GMT -5
It is just business. And taking your best player to arbitration is really bad business, and taking him to arbitration and losing is irresponsible and dumb business. Without knowing the hearing details we don’t know this to be true. People used to speculate that the hearings were bad because the team basically talked down about the player in front of the player and that obviously would create bad blood. But that’s not really how those hearings go. Work ethic and effort and anything personal literally have nothing to do with it. It’s simply numbers and individual awards comparing to other arbitration cases in the past. It’s not personal at all so I really don’t think the contents of the hearing itself has any negative affect. The negotiation to get there is a different story.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 1, 2018 8:31:13 GMT -5
.264/.344/.459 Is not good enough. I can’t say Mookie had an off year because he’s so young, but that’s not good enough for what the team needs him to be and it doesn’t put him in the conversation as the number 2 who can push Mike Trout. He needs to be the .318/.464/.518 or damn close to it or is a disappointment and this team is in serious trouble.
Does not mean last years Mookie wasn’t very good, it just means he’s not the player the team is expecting or needs. It also means he’s not worth that mega extension. I don’t care what the WAR figure says you don’t pay that much for defense.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 1, 2018 8:33:37 GMT -5
Why are people mentioning Mike Trout?
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Post by m1keyboots on Feb 1, 2018 8:46:08 GMT -5
First of all YAY on thornburh throwing since Oct 2nd. Also YAY on Erod throwing at 90 feet.
I'm looking at some comments claiming JDM would have the best offensive season ever, or the best defensive season he's ever had just based on Outfield dimensions. I think we need to take into account the different pitching style in the AL, and the different pitchers. As well as it's hot all the time in Arizona, and the balls fly like golf balls off aluminum bats all the time in Arizona. Somehow we forgotten his production in Detroit in the AL which yes, was quite productive but I would not say in the realm of best offensive output in the league by far. Age and playing in Boston might have something to do with it, but I'm not as optimistic as best offensive production of his career.
It seems like it's the same narrative as the Hosmer signing was heating up. These threads contained all of his positives and how much they could be better (reminds anyone of Pablo Sandoval eh)
Maybe it's just hard to convince this fan that inserting JDM into last year's lineup would have equalled World Series appearance.
Yes, we could have benefited from some more fly balls and homeruns. I just really hope this isn't the consensus among the people with money is signing JDM for 5 or 6 years at 25 per.
If he takes 20, maybe <20 million to agree and DH 75% of the time I'm all for it. There is a decent portion of the reason why our pitching has looked good at times, and that's the Outfield defense and to an extent the infield defense. Man it would be nice if the Brass recognized why guys like Porcello had a career year and sale as well at some points. As well as the bullpen with names that aren't top tier having great years. I suppose Vasquez and his framing has something to do with it, but so does our Outfield catching all manner of flying things which tend to end up being extra-base hits.
Edit: I hope this doesn't come across as hating on JDM the player as much as gratitude for the club that got us to the postseason last year
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Post by swingingbunt on Feb 1, 2018 8:47:58 GMT -5
Why are people mentioning Mike Trout? Because Pedro has taken the stance that any contact offer to Mookie, short of what Mike Trout got, was a slap in the face. Which, again, is ridiculous.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 1, 2018 9:08:34 GMT -5
Why are people mentioning Mike Trout? It’s a great question but it’s how people talk about Mookie. After his 2016 season, people expect him to be that guy who’s not quite Trout but who you can mention in the same breath. Not only is it unrealistic but it’s unfair. We are still learning who Mookie is. We know he’s a very good player but who is he offensively? If you give him a mega extension and he’s 2017 Mookie not 2016 then that’s going to be a bad contract.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 1, 2018 9:13:13 GMT -5
I’d be surprised if JDM spent much time in the outfield if he signs here. I’d guess he DHs or plays First. First base defense is underrated in my opinion but at worst you’ll see him in left field at Fenway.
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 1, 2018 9:55:20 GMT -5
I’d be surprised if JDM spent much time in the outfield if he signs here. I’d guess he DHs or plays First. First base defense is underrated in my opinion but at worst you’ll see him in left field at Fenway. It'd be nice to get him some first base exposure, but I doubt we'll see any of that in his first season here (side note: FWIW, he made two starts at first base in his first season in the minors). More likely, he signs to be the primary DH, and racks up 25-40 starts in the outfield, mostly in left field. That'll stem from Bradley (and sometimes Benintendi) sitting against some left handers, and of course if there's an injury situation. Although as I look at the projected roster, I'm not sure there's a bench bat that can justify sitting JBJ (or Benintendi) vs a left handed pitcher right now, in large part due to Moreland's incompetence against LHP. Only real in-org option is Brentz, where you could DH him, put JDM in left (and yes, JDM is probably a better left fielder than Brentz), and Hanley at first. Otherwise, you might as well keep JDM at DH, keep your starting outfielders out there, and play Hanley with Moreland riding the bench. With whatever we end up paying for JDM, hopefully there won't be any ongoing situation with him grumbling about DH vs OF time (I don't think there will be).
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 1, 2018 12:35:37 GMT -5
Why are people mentioning Mike Trout? Because Pedro has taken the stance that any contact offer to Mookie, short of what Mike Trout got, was a slap in the face. Which, again, is ridiculous. Nope, paying him 40 plus million short of Trout is ridiculous however. If you're not going to beat the offer, at least come close to it. I'll stop posting about the subject however. To James' post, I brought up Trout because both players were pre-arbitration eligible when they got offered contract extensions and had the same amount of service time.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 1, 2018 13:05:54 GMT -5
Because Pedro has taken the stance that any contact offer to Mookie, short of what Mike Trout got, was a slap in the face. Which, again, is ridiculous. Nope, paying him 40 plus million short of Trout is ridiculous however. If you're not going to beat the offer, at least come close to it. I'll stop posting about the subject however. To James' post, I brought up Trout because both players were pre-arbitration eligible when they got offered contract extensions and had the same amount of service time. I, too, am pre-arbitration eligible.
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Post by dirtdog on Feb 1, 2018 14:33:25 GMT -5
Why are people mentioning Mike Trout? Good question. Trout is a generational talent. Mookie just had a run of the mill 6.4 WAR season that many here apparently werent happy with based on his BA. Of course they didnt complain about the 179 runs he was responsible for. All I know is down the road Mookie will make big money and if it isnt here, the same people complaining about what he is making now will be the same ones to complain about him leaving.
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Post by geezergeek on Feb 1, 2018 17:36:57 GMT -5
I'm not terribly excited about signing JDM. I think he will produce but 5 years @ 25 will handicap the sox with some very good FA's that will be available in the next few years. There is also the possible fall off in production in the last few years of his contract as he gets older. My thought was Logan Morrison on a pillow contract coupled with ramirez may be an option at DH and 1B. split ramirez and morrison as a left/right combo at DH and Morrison splitting with moreland will allow for another left / right platoon at 1st base. As a side bonus it will keep rameriz under the at bats required for his option to kick in. If ramirez does not respond maybe Brentz can be the Right handed DH option.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 0:40:10 GMT -5
I'm looking at how the Red Sox built their rosters in 2004,2007 and 2013.In 2004 Red Sox had starting rotation of Bronson Arroyo Derek Lowe Pedro Martinez Curt Schilling and Tim Wakefield.
The Bullpen consisted of Mike Myers Curtis Leskanic Alan Embree Mike Timlin and Keith Foulke. Their lineup was Johnny Damon CF Mark Bellhorn 2b Manny Ramirez LF David Ortiz DH Trot Nixon RF Jason Varitek c Orlando Cabrera ss Bill Mueller 3B Doug Mientkiewicz 1B
Their their bench was Doug Mirabelli Gabe Kapler Kevin Millar Pokey Reese.
And movable pieces like Cesar Crespo OF David McCarty 1B Ellis Burks DH/OF Brian Daubach 1B/DH Dave Roberts OF/PR Ricky Gutierrez SS Kevin Youkilis 3B
Their top prospects were Jon Lester Kevin Youkilis Kelly Shoppach Hanley Ramirez David Murphy Jonathan Papelbon Brandon Moss Dustin Pedroia Manny Delcarmen.
In 2007 Red Sox had a starting rotation of Josh Beckett Jon Lester Daisuke Matsuzaka Curt Schilling Tim Wakefield Their Bullpen was Manny delcarmen Eric Gagne Javier Lopez Hideki Okajima Mike Timlin Kyle Snyder and Jonathan Papelbon The lineup was Coco Crisp Dustin Pedroia Manny Ramirez David Ortiz Mike Lowell JD Drew Jason Varitek Kevin Youkilis Julio Lugo The bench was Eric Hinske Alex Cora Brandon Moss Bobby Kielty Their top prospects were Jacoby Ellsbury Clay Buchholz Dustin Pedroia Daniel Bard Justin Masterson Jed Lowrie Ryan Jalish Josh Reddick Will Middlebrooks
the 2013 starting rotation was Clay Buchholz John Lackey Jon Lester Jake Peavy and Ryan Dempster Their Bullpen was Craig Breslow Franklin Morales Junichi Tazawa Brandon Workman and Koji Uehara The starting lineup was Jacoby Ellsbury Dustin Pedroia David Ortiz Mike Napoli Stephen Drew Shane Victorino Daniel Nava Xander Bogaerts Will Middlebrooks The bench was Quintin Berry Mike Carp Jonny Gomes Daniel Nava Theb top prospects were Xander Bogaerts Jackie Bradley Matt Barnes Garin Cecchini Henry Owens Anthony Ranaudo Blake Swihart Brandon Workman Brian Johnson Manuel Margot deven Marrero Bryce Brentz and Christian Vazquez
The projected 2018 starting rotation is Chris Sale David Price Drew Pomeranz Rick Porcello Steven Wright The the projected bullpen Robby Scott Brian Johnson Heath Hembree Austin Mattox Matt Barnes Joe Kelly Carson Smith Craig Kimbrel The projected lineup Mookie Betts Andrew Benintendi Hanley Ramirez Rafael Devers Mitch Moreland Jackie Bradley jr. Christian Vazquez Xander Bogaerts Marco Hernandez The the bench Sandy Lyon Bryce Brentz Deven Marrero Brock Holt Projected top prospects Jason Groome Michael Chavis Brian Mata Tanner Houck Sam Travis Josh Ockimey Cole Brannen Mike Shawaryn Alex Scherff and Jalen Beeks.
The 2018 Boston Red Sox major league team on paper looks as good as any of the championship teams there are no Big Papi's or Manny Ramirez's.Like the 2014 made the Nomar Garciaparra trade to make it better this team may need to make a deal like that at the deadline Their farm system is definitely no where near the three championship teams so there's not going to be much help other than Chavis maybe Travis from the minors. Hopefully they have a plan to make this roster stronger than what it is now.
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Post by sparkygian on Feb 2, 2018 4:09:06 GMT -5
Philosophical question. If the Sox don't sign JDM, and they are still contenders in 2018, but like last year, just weren't good enough to be compared to Houston, or Cleveland, or the Dodgers, and maybe now the Yankees, then does it make sense to start a minor rebuilding of the team at the trade deadline? That way they can lengthen their window of opportunity before Free Agency starts ripping this club apart in two years or so? For example the Sox trade Pomeranz to a desperate contender at the trade deadline for young prospects? Look at how optimistic the White Sox are with all the top young talent they got from rebuilding over the last couple of years. Hypothetically, is it insane to consider trading someone like Sale for example, for a couple of top young prospects to go with Devers and Benentendi? Thereby helping to lengthen the window of opportunity. Or is it safer to stick with what you've got, in proven players that are looking for that big payday, and shell out the big dollars to resign top players, or extend their contracts? Doing so gives the team a lot less flexibility in the future, knowing that financial flexibility is strained, and trade value for players as they get into their thirties starts diminishing rapidly, especially when they're saddled with a big, lengthy contract.
I think re-signing players like Sale, or Betts makes sense as long as they are maintaing an All Star level of play. However players that are close to the end of their contracts, that aren't consistently upper echelon players, such as Pomeranz, or Bogaerts as he gets closer to his FA year, I think might be a wiser decision to trade them instead of re-signing them.
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Post by manfred on Feb 2, 2018 10:45:54 GMT -5
I'm looking at how the Red Sox built their rosters in 2004,2007 and 2013.In 2004 Red Sox had starting rotation of Bronson Arroyo Derek Lowe Pedro Martinez Curt Schilling and Tim Wakefield. The Bullpen consisted of Mike Myers Curtis Leskanic Alan Embree Mike Timlin and Keith Foulke. Their lineup was Johnny Damon CF Mark Bellhorn 2b Manny Ramirez LF David Ortiz DH Trot Nixon RF Jason Varitek c Orlando Cabrera ss Bill Mueller 3B Doug Mientkiewicz 1B Their their bench was Doug Mirabelli Gabe Kapler Kevin Millar Pokey Reese. And movable pieces like Cesar Crespo OF David McCarty 1B Ellis Burks DH/OF Brian Daubach 1B/DH Dave Roberts OF/PR Ricky Gutierrez SS Kevin Youkilis 3B Their top prospects were Jon Lester Kevin Youkilis Kelly Shoppach Hanley Ramirez David Murphy Jonathan Papelbon Brandon Moss Dustin Pedroia Manny Delcarmen. In 2007 Red Sox had a starting rotation of Josh Beckett Jon Lester Daisuke Matsuzaka Curt Schilling Tim Wakefield Their Bullpen was Manny delcarmen Eric Gagne Javier Lopez Hideki Okajima Mike Timlin Kyle Snyder and Jonathan Papelbon The lineup was Coco Crisp Dustin Pedroia Manny Ramirez David Ortiz Mike Lowell JD Drew Jason Varitek Kevin Youkilis Julio Lugo The bench was Eric Hinske Alex Cora Brandon Moss Bobby Kielty Their top prospects were Jacoby Ellsbury Clay Buchholz Dustin Pedroia Daniel Bard Justin Masterson Jed Lowrie Ryan Jalish Josh Reddick Will Middlebrooks the 2013 starting rotation was Clay Buchholz John Lackey Jon Lester Jake Peavy and Ryan Dempster Their Bullpen was Craig Breslow Franklin Morales Junichi Tazawa Brandon Workman and Koji Uehara The starting lineup was Jacoby Ellsbury Dustin Pedroia David Ortiz Mike Napoli Stephen Drew Shane Victorino Daniel Nava Xander Bogaerts Will Middlebrooks The bench was Quintin Berry Mike Carp Jonny Gomes Daniel Nava Theb top prospects were Xander Bogaerts Jackie Bradley Matt Barnes Garin Cecchini Henry Owens Anthony Ranaudo Blake Swihart Brandon Workman Brian Johnson Manuel Margot deven Marrero Bryce Brentz and Christian Vazquez The projected 2018 starting rotation is Chris Sale David Price Drew Pomeranz Rick Porcello Steven Wright The the projected bullpen Robby Scott Brian Johnson Heath Hembree Austin Mattox Matt Barnes Joe Kelly Carson Smith Craig Kimbrel The projected lineup Mookie Betts Andrew Benintendi Hanley Ramirez Rafael Devers Mitch Moreland Jackie Bradley jr. Christian Vazquez Xander Bogaerts Marco Hernandez The the bench Sandy Lyon Bryce Brentz Deven Marrero Brock Holt Projected top prospects Jason Groome Michael Chavis Brian Mata Tanner Houck Sam Travis Josh Ockimey Cole Brannen Mike Shawaryn Alex Scherff and Jalen Beeks. The 2018 Boston Red Sox major league team on paper looks as good as any of the championship teams there are no Big Papi's or Manny Ramirez's.Like the 2014 made the Nomar Garciaparra trade to make it better this team may need to make a deal like that at the deadline Their farm system is definitely no where near the three championship teams so there's not going to be much help other than Chavis maybe Travis from the minors. Hopefully they have a plan to make this roster stronger than what it is now. As good on paper except no Papi or Manny? Given that those are two HOF bats, that seems like a massive difference. Even adding JD wouldn’t narrow that gap.
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Post by huskies15 on Feb 5, 2018 14:26:37 GMT -5
Today would be a great day for the Red Sox to finally sign JDM. Maybe that's just my super bowl hangover talking tho
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2018 19:45:46 GMT -5
Ok... so... what if the Sox don't sign JDM? I mean, what if they decide to use the $150 million-ish they'd need for him and did something like sign Logan Morrison, Greg Holland, and still save a few bucks? I mean, Morrison did hit 38 hrs in the Sox's division last year. Of course he is not the same level player, and he is not righthanded, but if the Sox need a bit of thump, he is that.
And Holland in the 8th? Forget about it.
I suspect they could get Morrison for 3-year/$40 mill, and Holland for 3-year/$50 mill. That is a pretty big savings over JDM, and it keeps them from those last few years of dead money.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2018 20:04:52 GMT -5
Ok... so... what if the Sox don't sign JDM? I mean, what if they decide to use the $150 million-ish they'd need for him and did something like sign Logan Morrison, Greg Holland, and still save a few bucks? I mean, Morrison did hit 38 hrs in the Sox's division last year. Of course he is not the same level player, and he is not righthanded, but if the Sox need a bit of thump, he is that. And Holland in the 8th? Forget about it. I suspect they could get Morrison for 3-year/$40 mill, and Holland for 3-year/$50 mill. That is a pretty big savings over JDM, and it keeps them from those last few years of dead money. Over the next three years perhaps, but you'd actually pay more annually this year for those two players. You'd have one very overpaid setup man and a dh/1b who has shown one skill, hitting home runs. You'd pay less in 2018 to have the power hitter you actually need. I don't think the Red Sox need a 1 trick pony. They need a David Ortiz replacement. JD Martinez is a hitter. He does more than hit homers. I wouldn't pay $17 million/year for Greg Holland. I'd rather save that kind of money to try to re-sign Kimbrel who is a better pitcher than Holland.
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Post by mredsox89 on Feb 5, 2018 20:56:42 GMT -5
Not that the Sox had been linked to him, but Todd Frazier just signed with the Mets for 2/$17. Pretty cheap for a guy who has been pretty consistent and a 2-3 WAR player.
The market for offense continues to plummet, and it certainly appears that unless Boras lowers his ask for Hosmer/Martinez, neither are signing any time soon
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 5, 2018 21:29:18 GMT -5
I would rather not bet on a 30 year old guy who has had just 1 very good season.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2018 22:51:57 GMT -5
.264/.344/.459 Is not good enough. I can’t say Mookie had an off year because he’s so young, It was BABIP, BABIP, and nothing but BABIP. The skills hardly changed at all last year. Same contact ability, same power, same approach, same batted ball profile, same everything. The best you can really find is that he had a handful more pop ups last year. But he was the same dude last year, with worse outcomes on balls in play.
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