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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 9, 2017 13:43:00 GMT -5
Eh.....the fun is just beginning. You still gotta pitch it and play defense.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 9, 2017 13:44:15 GMT -5
Reminds me.......Who needs Stanton when you got Devers !!!!
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2017 13:54:07 GMT -5
Do you know this for sure (like having an inside source) or are you stating your opinion? He was never offered a chance to veto a trade to Boston. Boston.did.not.want.the.contract. I hope you're not right. If Stanton made it clear he didn't want to come to Boston, it sucks that the Yankees received such a gift, but that would hardly be Dombrowski's fault, although one would wonder why NY is such a great destination and Boston is a place to avoid. If you are right, then what do the Red Sox think they're going to get to anchor the lineup that doesn't cost a fortune or doesn't clean out their already thin farm system? If you want quality you have to pay for it one way or another and I don't really care to hear about the need to have money to extend everybody. At this point Mookie is the only guy I'd definitely pay huge $ to extend and even that might not work - he could want to leave for greener pastures, literally and figuratively. And you have the contracts of Hanley and Sandoval and Porcello expiring in the next couple of offseasons if not Price's contract. They had the money and if they are leery about giving Stanton 10 years at AAV of $25 million then how would they feel giving JD Martinez 7 years at around $180 million to age 37? And he can't even play defense now unlike Stanton. The bottom line with Stanton was two things - the Marlins wanted the money, prospects were totally secondary, which would suit the Sox fine, and two and most importantly Stanton would have to accept the deal, which he might not have done. However my gut is you're correct and it's not that Stanton turned down the Red Sox - they didn't want to commit to him. I think if they did want to Stanton would have met with the Red Sox like he did the Giants and Cardinals and he either would be a Red Sox or still a Yankee. But I don't think Red Sox management gave us a chance to find out. I hope I find out that I'm totally wrong about this. It wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened!
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 9, 2017 13:59:48 GMT -5
I'd say lets try not to overreact folks....but this deal is kind of insane. Yeah, no, I'm okay with this. Jose is a great prospect, I hope we can build a package around his slightly less talented cousin for a legit 8th inning man. I mean, come on, this day can't get any worse.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2017 14:00:55 GMT -5
It's kind of funny - when the offseason began I really thought the Yankees would come away with Ohtani and I didn't even consider them a realistic possibility for Stanton. Figured they would try to get under the luxury tax threshold.
So instead the Yankees walk away with Stanton and Ohtani decides he wants no part of the east coast.
As for the Red Sox I figured they'd be all over Stanton as they have the money and very little in prospects and are in a win now window and in great need of a proven power hitting guy to replace David Ortiz's production.
If the Sox weren't willing to spend on Stanton does that mean they want to go all in on Harper?
It kind of reminds me a little of they weren't willing to spend $150 million on Jon Lester so they spent $210 million on David Price. Is that the case here with Stanton and potentially Harper?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2017 14:02:08 GMT -5
I'd say lets try not to overreact folks....but this deal is kind of insane. Yeah, no, I'm okay with this. Jose is a great prospect, I hope we can build a package around his slightly less talented cousin for a legit 8th inning man. I mean, come on, this day can't get any worse. JD Martinez could sign with the Giants - that would do it, right?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2017 14:03:00 GMT -5
Eh.....the fun is just beginning. You still gotta pitch it and play defense. Right, and the Yankees gave us less runs last year than the Sox did (albeit not by much).
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 9, 2017 14:05:41 GMT -5
JD Martinez could sign with the Giants - that would do it, right? At the rate things are going he's going to sign with the Blue Jays, who are going to open cap space by trading Donaldson to the Yankees for a power throwing RH and cash considerations.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 9, 2017 14:10:15 GMT -5
I just have to say this, DD didn't want him. Stanton wanted West coast and the Dodgers. They had no interest so he jumped on the Yankees. If Red Sox pushed hard from the start I don't buy he wouldn't accept a trade to Boston. We showed very little interest and were out of it even after seeing the low cost. We never meet with him and tried to get him to approve a trade to Boston. He only wanted New York after the choices were Saint Louis and San Francisco. Which makes sense, those teams are a mess and seem to be going downhill. If you wanted to win a title in the near future you don't pick those teams. So sick of hearing he wouldn't accept a trade here, they said the same thing about New York till they showed interest.
This was either DD not wanting him, or more likely Ownership not wanting to take on a 10 year deal for a player that is injury prone.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 9, 2017 14:14:15 GMT -5
I just have to say this, DD didn't want him. Stanton wanted West coast and the Dodgers. They had no interest so he jumped on the Yankees. If Red Sox pushed hard from the start I don't buy he wouldn't accept a trade to Boston. We showed very little interest and were out of it even after seeing the low cost. We never meet with him and tried to get him to approve a trade to Boston. He only wanted New York after the choices were Saint Louis and San Francisco. Which makes sense, those teams are a mess and seem to be going downhill. If you wanted to win a title in the near future you don't pick those teams. So sick of hearing he wouldn't accept a trade here, they said the same thing about New York till they showed interest. This was either DD not wanting him, or more likely Ownership not wanting to take on a 10 year deal for a player that is injury prone. Exactly, you can't say you tried when you didn't even give Stanton a chance to approve a trade. This is all on ownership, you know Dave was interested because he at least made the phone call and did the due diligence. This was all John Henry not wanting another bad contract in order to get a superstar.
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Post by stevedillard on Dec 9, 2017 14:16:12 GMT -5
Guys. The yanks were always going to get a 300 million guy, either Harper, Machado or Stanton
They just got one (prob the weakest one) a year early and at the cost of a semi all star.
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Post by swingingbunt on Dec 9, 2017 14:23:55 GMT -5
True, except now the Yankees got a $300M guy for only $22M a year. And really, there's no reason to believe the Yankees won't get another $300M player next off season too. Thanks to Jeters gift basket, the Yankees will somehow reset the luxury tax limit this year and go crazy next year too.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Dec 9, 2017 15:24:24 GMT -5
If I'm the commissioner, it takes me about thirty seconds to void this deal.
The buzz all along was that the Marlins wanted to move Stanton's entire salary and get a significant prospect package in return. And that they were delusional and needed to settle for one or the other.
But settling for neither?
The sabermetric consensus was that Stanton was worth about what he was owed, so the acquisition price would be the equivalent of a late first-round pick (as if he were a FA), plus talent to offset whatever money you were getting towards his salary.
The Giants reportedly offered an OK but dirt-cheap 2B in Joe Panik, and their #2, #3, and #4 prospects, in returning for paying $30M of Stanton's salary.
This trade has Stanton going to the Yankees for their #7 (BA) or #9 (MLB) prospect plus a non-top-30 throw-in. IOW, the equivalent of a late first-round pick.
But the Yankees needed to shed close to $12M in AAV or they'd go over the cap this year and trigger a 50% surtax.
So the Marlins also gave them $30M ($3M AAV x 10) in exchange for ... Starlin Castro ($8.6M AAV), a guy who averages 1.3 bWAR and is owed 2/$22M, which is more than he would get as a free agent, which is to say, a guy with, at best, zero surplus value.
This would stink to high heaven under any circumstances. As a trade by a team with a long history of fire sales that has alienated its fanbase, and a team that plays in a gorgeous new stadium funded with tax dollars, which has severely alienated its fanbase (I experienced both of these things firsthand at last year's SABR conference), it's simply not acceptable. I can't imagine a Marlins fan wanting to attend a game after this.
As a trade made by one of the most financially strapped clubs in MLB, made by a new owner who is the ultimate living icon of the team he just gave a flat-our $30M gift to (taxpayer money in the eyes if their fanbase, remember) ... seriously? Seriously?
I have no problem with Stanton and $30M going to the Yankees for Castro and the two prospects, but the return also has to also include Estevan Florial and either Chance Adams or Justin Sheffield ... and probably Miguel Andujar, too.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Dec 9, 2017 15:27:07 GMT -5
No matter, we can just raise the Green Monster to twice the height. It's only a HR if Stanton hits the ball through the monster, right?
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Post by taftreign on Dec 9, 2017 15:52:04 GMT -5
Not sure but I believe the 30 mil only goes to NY if he does not opt out at the end of 2020.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 9, 2017 16:07:28 GMT -5
If I'm the commissioner, it takes me about thirty seconds to void this deal. The buzz all along was that the Marlins wanted to move Stanton's entire salary and get a significant prospect package in return. And that they were delusional and needed to settle for one or the other. But settling for neither? The sabermetric consensus was that Stanton was worth about what he was owed, so the acquisition price would be the equivalent of a late first-round pick (as if he were a FA), plus talent to offset whatever money you were getting towards his salary. The Giants reportedly offered an OK but dirt-cheap 2B in Joe Panik, and their #2, #3, and #4 prospects, in returning for paying $30M of Stanton's salary. This trade has Stanton going to the Yankees for their #7 (BA) or #9 (MLB) prospect plus a non-top-30 throw-in. IOW, the equivalent of a late first-round pick. But the Yankees needed to shed close to $12M in AAV or they'd go over the cap this year and trigger a 50% surtax. So the Marlins also gave them $30M ($3M AAV x 10) in exchange for ... Starlin Castro ($8.6M AAV), a guy who averages 1.3 bWAR and is owed 2/$22M, which is more than he would get as a free agent, which is to say, a guy with, at best, zero surplus value. This would stink to high heaven under any circumstances. As a trade by a team with a long history of fire sales that has alienated its fanbase, and a team that plays in a gorgeous new stadium funded with tax dollars, which has severely alienated its fanbase (I experienced both of these things firsthand at last year's SABR conference), it's simply not acceptable. I can't imagine a Marlins fan wanting to attend a game after this. As a trade made by one of the most financially strapped clubs in MLB, made by a new owner who is the ultimate living icon of the team he just gave a flat-our $30M gift to (taxpayer money in the eyes if their fanbase, remember) ... seriously? Seriously? I have no problem with Stanton and $30M going to the Yankees for Castro and the two prospects, but the return also has to also include Estevan Florial and either Chance Adams or Justin Sheffield ... and probably Miguel Andujar, too. Wow. You act like the Marlins turned down a better offer. They wanted to trade him to Giants or Cardinals, Stanton said no. The Giants final offer didn't include Panik if they weren't getting Gordon. Castro averages 1.7 bwar and is coming off of a 2 war season and the 2nd base market is very weak. They should have little problem moving him. At his age I bet he gets over 22 million if he were a free agent. I get being upset, but the Marlins took the best deal, because it was the only one that Stanton would approve. This wasn't some sneaky deal were the Marlins accepted a worst offer just to help Jeters former team. It's called a full no trade clause.
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Post by soxfan2015 on Dec 9, 2017 16:22:14 GMT -5
It is disgusting what the Yankees have done the past 4 years. Acquiring Didi, Castro, Torres, Chapman, Warren, and Stanton for nothing. Literally nothing. These deals are openly bad right away too where everyone knows it. Still can’t beliebe that Chapman deal. Got Chapman from the reds for nothing then flipped him for Torres and warren and McKinney. This was all for a HALF year of Chapman! This deal ends up being the Yankees getting Stanton for Brendan Ryan and Brian McCann (the Yankees ending up keeping the better prospect from the McCann deal anyways).
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Post by kingofthetrill on Dec 9, 2017 16:36:38 GMT -5
Wow. You act like the Marlins turned down a better offer. They wanted to trade him to Giants or Cardinals, Stanton said no. The Giants final offer didn't include Panik if they weren't getting Gordon. Castro averages 1.7 bwar and is coming off of a 2 war season and the 2nd base market is very weak. They should have little problem moving him. At his age I bet he gets over 22 million if he were a free agent. I get being upset, but the Marlins took the best deal, because it was the only one that Stanton would approve. This wasn't some sneaky deal were the Marlins accepted a worst offer just to help Jeters former team. It's called a full no trade clause. Does the deal have to be made though? I mean "best" doesn't automatically mean "good".
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 9, 2017 17:00:33 GMT -5
Wow. You act like the Marlins turned down a better offer. They wanted to trade him to Giants or Cardinals, Stanton said no. The Giants final offer didn't include Panik if they weren't getting Gordon. Castro averages 1.7 bwar and is coming off of a 2 war season and the 2nd base market is very weak. They should have little problem moving him. At his age I bet he gets over 22 million if he were a free agent. I get being upset, but the Marlins took the best deal, because it was the only one that Stanton would approve. This wasn't some sneaky deal were the Marlins accepted a worst offer just to help Jeters former team. It's called a full no trade clause. Does the deal have to be made though? I mean "best" doesn't automatically mean "good". The Marlins thought so. They want to rebuild and cut salary in like half. Look what they got after his huge year because that deal scared everyone. Maybe if they kept him he has a huge 2018 and increases his value or maybe he's more like 2016 and 2015 and they can't trade him at all. Untill they increase revenue, they really can't afford a contract like that. Very few teams can. Also keeping him for years why they rebuild doesn't seem smart. In a perfect world the Marlins new owners would have been like Mark Cuban, but instead they got cheap owners that waaay overpaid for the team. They couldn't afford to lose 10s of millions like the team did last year for years on years. The fans didn't even come out to see Stanton's epic season, so he wasn't much of a draw. The better question is, can Miami support a baseball team? Florida is a state where people go to retire. It seems they have more Yankee and Red Sox fans than Marlin and Devil Ray fans. That's not an easy thing to fix and you might not be able to fix it.
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atzar
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Post by atzar on Dec 9, 2017 17:13:20 GMT -5
This trade is why no responsible GM should ever offer a full no-trade clause to any of his players.
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Post by prangerx on Dec 9, 2017 19:44:23 GMT -5
I understand Stanton may have vetoed the trade. But I feel the sox should have offered a similar deal to the yanks and at least try. It would have been better for pr. Or by some miracle you actually convince him to waive the veto.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 9, 2017 22:10:23 GMT -5
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Post by prangerx on Dec 10, 2017 12:05:54 GMT -5
If I was a Marlins fan I would be pissed. They trade Stanton and Gordan away in pure salary dump deals and all they really get is Starlin Castro in return.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 10, 2017 13:33:39 GMT -5
If I was a Marlins fan I would be pissed. They trade Stanton and Gordan away in pure salary dump deals and all they really get is Starlin Castro in return. There will be no such thing as a Marlins fan in 2018. They have no reason to buy tickets or watch their team this year. This new ownership group put this team back 5-7 years competitively.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 10, 2017 16:38:28 GMT -5
If I was a Marlins fan I would be pissed. They trade Stanton and Gordan away in pure salary dump deals and all they really get is Starlin Castro in return. Castro is owed actual money and will therefor be flipped. I have seen some takes on this along the lines of "well, the Marlins weren't going to contend either way, the right move is to sell and rebuild the farm", which is true enough. There's a hole in this argument that you could pilot an aircraft carrier through though, which is that the Marlins actively avoided rebuilding the farm system in this trade in favor of lowering payroll. Maybe they needed to trade Stanton, maybe they didn't, but they absolutely didn't need to trade him just for the salary relief. It's not like the old days when a team stripping it's payroll down could at least redirect some of the savings to the draft and the international market. The projections suggest the contract is at worst a break-even proposition, so it's unlikely that they're going to be able to spend the money in a dramatically more efficient way in the future. This trade was 100% about providing a financial windfall to the new ownership group and 0% about making the Marlins a better team in the future. Why MLB invited these owners in to do nothing but soak up revenue sharing dollars while further destroying the credibility of what is already one of their least credible franchises is absolutely baffling to me.
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