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Post by jimed14 on Jul 26, 2018 14:40:25 GMT -5
Too bad for Workman, but it's a numbers crunch and he ended up behind Brasier. Weird that they activate him now since he's not pitching tonight. Don't they have 3 days to do it?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 26, 2018 14:51:54 GMT -5
He was actually listed in the pen for the gametime box of the rained out game but so was Workman. I looked because I wanted to see what move they made but just quickly before my electricity went out and didn't come back on before the box was gone.
Workman made sense. He's already burned an option.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 26, 2018 15:04:47 GMT -5
Yates is about 31? If I were Preller (parish the thought) I'd ask for Houck. By time the Padres are good down the road Yates will be 34 or 35. I would think he'd be interested in Houck. I'm sure Chavis or Dalbec would be of interest. I'm pretty sure the Sox could offer a package to come away with Yates. The bigger question is should they? I think the cost wouldn't be worth it. From what DDo said about Eovaldi, I'm pretty sure that's the one pitching move. He can start now and be probably as good or better than Britton in the bullpen later. I kinda called something like that a few days ago when I suggested trading for Gausman or Bundy. I don't believe that DDo is done. I think he gets a reliever, especially if Washington sells. I guess we'll see by the 31st.
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Post by mobaz on Jul 26, 2018 15:16:58 GMT -5
I just don't see the Sox paying the price to get another reliever. As Eric pointed out for weeks it's actually hard to find someone that will be an incremental improvement on what they have that can be had for less than Chavis/Houck/Mata/Groome. Only Mata might be a "sell high" candidate. Don't think the Nats relievers move the needle and look more like doing something for the sake of something.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 26, 2018 15:37:17 GMT -5
I just don't see the Sox paying the price to get another reliever. As Eric pointed out for weeks it's actually hard to find someone that will be an incremental improvement on what they have that can be had for less than Chavis/Houck/Mata/Groome. Only Mata might be a "sell high" candidate. Don't think the Nats relievers move the needle and look more like doing something for the sake of something. If it actually cost any of those to get a rental then I'd agree with you. I just don't think it will cost that, especially for teams looking to move salaries. I think it's the controllable years that cost you those prospects and I agree it wouldn't be worth it.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 26, 2018 15:57:18 GMT -5
I don't think I'm being ridiculous. If I was then I doubt the Sox would be looking to upgrade their pen. Maybe they're being ridiculous too, or maybe they see what I'm seeing - other teams they'll be playing with stack bullpens while the Sox only trust Barnes and Kimbrel close and late and apparently now Hembree now that Kelly has flamed out. And when did I ever guarantee post-season victory if they do A, B, and C? I identified areas of vulnerability in comparison to the teams they'll be facing in October. The Red Sox could win because Mookie or JDM are perfect or Devers goes off. But they can also win because they can better protect leads against tough lineups with more relief pitching weapons in their arsenal. I know one thing, though. They can easily let leads slip if their pen isn't deep enough. I think his point is that, no matter your team, you can always identify areas of weakness that are potentially upgradable. The question is whether or not those upgrades have genuine value for the cost. At some point you need to trust the roster you have. If you’re looking at a sequence of worst-case scenarios (ERod, Pomeranz, Wright all out for most of the remaining season and/or wholly ineffective, plus none of Kelly/Thornburg/Hembree pitching well), you’re paying a prospect cost on a very low-percentage outcome. It creates roster issues, salary issues, and long-term depth issues, for just a very marginal benefit. Odds are that one or more of the starters and one or more of the pen pieces picks it up. I don’t think there’s a ton of benefit to trying to shore up every *perceived* weakness, when they can’t all be predicted. I’m OK with the Beeks trade, although I don’t “like” it. I think Eovaldi’s addition has some clear benefits, including depth, insurance, and maybe even an edge on extending/re-signing him for Pomeranz’s departure. If Beeks is a 4, it’s a bit of a bummer cost-wise, because those guys are common but not necessarily that cheaply. If he’s a 3, it’s really a bummer but that probably wasn’t going to happen for several years. In the grand scheme he was probably a top-140-160 range guy and that’s not an atrocious price to pay. Plus they keep Eovaldi out of NY. And if they were to get Yates, as I said, it makes sense in terms of Kimbrel’s FA and saving $ to extend their run. But (and the more I think of Familia the more bummed I get) I don’t think they “need” another reliever. They have likely internal moves, including Price, Pomeranz, or ERod, or trying their Buttrey/Lakins/Jerez troika. A 2b would help, maybe significantly, but I think Lin-Holt is sufficient. They don’t “need” an uber team. Any move they make should take the future into account, be it preserving some prospect depth over small upgrades, financial flexibility, or hedging bets on upcoming FAs. You could drive yourself crazy coming up with every possible problem and anticipating those needs. Telson, normally I don't think you need an uber team either, but this is not a normal year. This is a year the Sox are at the highest point of their open window going up against two other teams who should easily exceed 100 wins, and might even win 105 plus as well. These are stacked teams. I think any weakness that can be improved without giving up the farm is the way to go. I don't think giving up Beeks is giving away the farm. Just about everything I read says that at best he's a #4 guy. That's not irreplaceable and the Sox need Eovaldi when on 7/31 they have no idea how healthy and effective E-Rod will be. If E-Rod is healthy great either he, Eovaldi, or Price can go to the pen, but we don't know that as of now. As of now, Eovaldi is needed with Sale, Price, and Porcello. Because we don't know if Eovaldi or whoever will be free to be a big high leverage relief guy in October it would behoove the Sox to stack their pen just as the Yankees have done. The Yanks improved their pen and rotation (and in the process avoid having to use Gray in a playoff start against the Sox which is big because Gray is a disaster against the Sox). The Sox need to keep up. They don't want to play in that Wild Card game. Now understand just because I say there is more urgency this year than in most doesn't mean you do something stupid and strip away your farm system. Just as Happ and Britton didn't cost the Yankees anybody like Sheffield or even Frazier or Estoval or whoever they regard the highest the moves the Sox need to make should not cost them their crown jewels either. That's why I'm against Yates (thanks for informing me about San Diego's park effects) and anybody else that would cost prospects due to years of control. I wanted Britton or Soria and if Herrera comes back on the market or Watson becomes available, I hope the Sox will get their man. I think the Sox need another high leverage reliever to go with Barnes and Kimbrel. I like Brasier and have some hope for Thornburg, but at this point I think they need a higher level of certainty. I also think they can improve 2b without giving up too much whether it's Dozier, Cabrera, or Kinsler down the road. They're going to be over the limit anyways, so I don't have a problem with them throwing short-term money at a problem. I feel that between Nunez, Holt, and Lin, you are talking about utility men. I think the Sox are capable of getting a regular who can lengthen the depth of the lineup against good pitching without giving up too much. Short of an injury hitting I don't see any real other holes on the team. Ramos probably would have cost too much to rent and he's hurt anyways and frankly I wanted to see what could happen if Swihart was given a chance. Well now Vazquez is hurt and Leon is slumping - I think this problem can internally solve itself. If JBJ hadn't gotten his timing mechanism fixed at the plate, they might have needed to get an OF. I don't know how long his adjustment will hold - but given the priorities you have to roll with it because when he is hitting he's damn good, so that problem did solve itself, but if he was still hitting .180 in July you'd have to look to upgrade. Fortunately they don't need to. I think they needed a RH bat to replace Hanley. DDo solved that brilliantly getting Pearce. And I think he did a good job getting Eovaldi. If he can do something similar for a high leverage reliever and a 2b - this team is good to go. Who knows? he might even add a LOOGY. I read of their interest in Liriano. I'm not as worried about that. I know weaknesses can shift and change but if I'm a betting man, I think they're going to need help in the pen and at 2b. I have a feeling Dombrowski will agree and upgrade those two areas. After that, it's all about health, and kicking butt.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 26, 2018 16:09:44 GMT -5
Maybe we should also get an ace, just in case Sale doesn't look good in October again.
At some point you just have to trust that things work out reasonably well.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 26, 2018 16:48:45 GMT -5
Who knows, but they had a chance to get Romo in a package deal and passed. Heck Romo even adds 3rd base depth lol. So either were done or DD is going to do something stupid.
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 26, 2018 17:10:07 GMT -5
Too bad for Workman, but it's a numbers crunch and he ended up behind Brasier. Weird that they activate him now since he's not pitching tonight. Don't they have 3 days to do it? It is a little puzzling. With BJ starting tonight, I agree that Velazquez is more valuable than Workman in the pen, but once BJ goes back to the pen, the opposite is true. You really don't need two long men. And the odds of needing long relief in the next couple of days, with Sale and Porcello starting, are slim.
It might be construed as a vote of confidence in Kelly as the 5th option in the pen after Kimbrel, Barnes, Thornburg, and Brasier. If he was going to be ahead of Workman in the pecking order anyway, the move makes more sense.
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Post by oilcan73 on Jul 26, 2018 17:14:52 GMT -5
If Kelly continues to struggle mightily as he has recently, I have to believe Workman will be back up and Kelly will head to the DL for a bit.
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 26, 2018 17:17:43 GMT -5
Who knows, but they had a chance to get Romo in a package deal and passed. Heck Romo even adds 3rd base depth lol. So either were done or DD is going to do something stupid. A lefty still makes some sense. Kirby Yates still makes a lot of sense at the right price. But another RHR of roughly Barnes' caliber doesn't, unless Thornburg goes backwards in the next 6 days.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 26, 2018 17:54:37 GMT -5
Maybe we should also get an ace, just in case Sale doesn't look good in October again.At some point you just have to trust that things work out reasonably well. Thanks for the sarcasm. It's unwarranted. Thinking that 2b and the bullpen could use upgrading is hardly ridiculous. I trust that everything else will work out reasonably well. We'll see if Dombrowski agrees over the coming days.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 26, 2018 19:09:45 GMT -5
Who knows, but they had a chance to get Romo in a package deal and passed. Heck Romo even adds 3rd base depth lol. So either were done or DD is going to do something stupid. A lefty still makes some sense. Kirby Yates still makes a lot of sense at the right price. But another RHR of roughly Barnes' caliber doesn't, unless Thornburg goes backwards in the next 6 days. Who are the big lefty bats we're worried about in the plyoffs, though? Judge, Stanton, Torres, Andujar? Springer, Altuve, Bregman? It's mostly RH bats to worry abut in the AL, at least with the contenders. Not sure I'd put too much emphasis on a killer lefty specialist.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 26, 2018 20:13:13 GMT -5
Weird that they activate him now since he's not pitching tonight. Don't they have 3 days to do it? It is a little puzzling. With BJ starting tonight, I agree that Velazquez is more valuable than Workman in the pen, but once BJ goes back to the pen, the opposite is true. You really don't need two long men. And the odds of needing long relief in the next couple of days, with Sale and Porcello starting, are slim.
It might be construed as a vote of confidence in Kelly as the 5th option in the pen after Kimbrel, Barnes, Thornburg, and Brasier. If he was going to be ahead of Workman in the pecking order anyway, the move makes more sense.
If they want to see if Braiser and Thornburg can handle the high leverage spots that Barnes and Kimbrel aren’t getting, in the short term then what’s the point of Workman over Velasquez? There’s no need to burn an option year. If Braiser can’t handle it then he’s being shipped down and Workmanis back. Since they will be doing things that way with Workman here or not then you’ve lost nothing by sending him down.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 27, 2018 4:58:14 GMT -5
How in the heck do the Sox pull off a Yates deal? What can they conceivably offer? I think the better question is what is he truly worth? He's been a 1.7 bwar guy this year, yet his career war is 1.5. His best season besides this year was last year, which was a .4 bwar season. The guys costing a ton so far have been proven guys like Hand and Britton. I wouldn't mind him, but no way I pay a kings ransom for him. Chances are you wouldn't be getting the one plus war you'd be paying for. Nevermind the Padres are very good at trades. I don't know how that team still sucks. I wouldn't offer a lot frankly. As good as he's been he is more like the guys we have, an unproven guy just pitching well. I want a more proven guy frankly. That should be the whole point of getting a reliever. Getting a guy that adds more certainty to the bullpen. Seems DD is waiting to see if the Giants and Nationals becomes sellers. Those teams have a bunch of more proven guys.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 28, 2018 12:52:27 GMT -5
Barnes would probably be getting even better results if the Red Sox had a better infield defense. His GB% is 55.4%.
That ranks 17th of 161 qualified RP.
And unrelated - Ziegler is 1st with a 74.3%!!!!! rate.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 15, 2018 13:49:48 GMT -5
This wouldn’t be for this year but didn’t want to start a new thread. Trevor Rosenthal is having an October showcase for a contract next season. Could be a decent short term option. He’ll be 18 months removed from TJS at the start of spring training.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 15, 2018 14:43:00 GMT -5
This wouldn’t be for this year but didn’t want to start a new thread. Trevor Rosenthal is having an October showcase for a contract next season. Could be a decent short term option. He’ll be 18 months removed from TJS at the start of spring training. Saw that. Rosenthal would definitely be an interesting option to look at. Also, can't remember where I saw it, but it sounds like Dana Levangie mentioned something about Kimbrel going through some minor physical ailments that could be causing some of his mechanical problems that are showing up as increased walks. Something similar happened a couple of years ago when Kimbrel's walks were up. Found out the following season that Kimbrel had an issue with his finger that was messing with his mechanics. If he does have some minor ailments I don't think it would be a bad thing for him to go on the DL and rest if need be. Now would be a good time for that. They need him at the top of his game in October.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 14, 2018 6:53:56 GMT -5
Barnes being hurt sucks for the team but it also sucks that it gives the people who have been claiming the bullpen isn’t a problem an excuse when the bullpen is a problem in the post season. It will be:
1. Small sample sizes in the post season
2. Losing Barnes killed them or Barnes just wasn’t right coming back from time off.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 14, 2018 8:31:33 GMT -5
Barnes being hurt sucks for the team but it also sucks that it gives the people who have been claiming the bullpen isn’t a problem an excuse when the bullpen is a problem in the post season. It will be: 1. Small sample sizes in the post season 2. Losing Barnes killed them or Barnes just wasn’t right coming back from time off. Barnes should be back for the postseason and there shouldn't be any excuses at this point. You shut down Chris Sale for over a month. You didn't get a bullpen arm because you didn't want a better reliever. The Sox core has been together for over 2 years minus Sale and Martinez. If this team doesn't win this year or next year, then it should be considered a failure and Dombrowski should lose his job over it, especially if the bullpen is the reason why the Sox lose. I'm sorry, but it is what it is. He has a ton riding on the next 2 years. There might be 4 teams in the AL to win over 100 games this year, so that isn't a great reason to keep him here. I give him credit for it, but it's not even close to the most important thing. Cora acknowledges this everytime he speaks too.
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Post by 07redsox on Sept 14, 2018 11:22:15 GMT -5
Barnes being hurt sucks for the team but it also sucks that it gives the people who have been claiming the bullpen isn’t a problem an excuse when the bullpen is a problem in the post season. It will be: 1. Small sample sizes in the post season 2. Losing Barnes killed them or Barnes just wasn’t right coming back from time off. Barnes should be back for the postseason and there shouldn't be any excuses at this point. You shut down Chris Sale for over a month. You didn't get a bullpen arm because you didn't want a better reliever. The Sox core has been together for over 2 years minus Sale and Martinez. If this team doesn't win this year or next year, then it should be considered a failure and Dombrowski should lose his job over it, especially if the bullpen is the reason why the Sox lose. I'm sorry, but it is what it is. He has a ton riding on the next 2 years. There might be 4 teams in the AL to win over 100 games this year, so that isn't a great reason to keep him here. I give him credit for it, but it's not even close to the most important thing. Cora acknowledges this everytime he speaks too. Seriously? You should know, just like everyone else here, that this is not how it works. Most things in life, including baseball, are not black and white like this. It isn't does or doesn't, want or not want. Do you honestly think that DD didn't want another reliever? It's not as simple as asking and receiving. There were plenty of reports about a supposed deal for Herrera that fell apart at the last minute on the Nationals' part. The way you are describing it is making it seem like DD was sitting in his office, twiddling his thumbs, convinced that the Sox have all of the best relievers and that no one could replace any of them performance wise. It can definitely be said that people make excuses a lot for this bullpen. Some are justified, some are not. However, the extent of the criticism it gets can get extremely overblown. Even the best bullpen in baseball is going to blow many leads throughout the season. You know what fans of those teams say in those situations? Pretty much exactly what many on this board say about our current bullpen. We watch Red Sox games, many of us watching most if not all of them during the season in some way, shape or form, and know everything about the team. That means when something goes wrong we are also the first and most vocal to criticize. The grass is always greener on the other side....Fans of other teams who don't watch Red Sox games frequently are looking at our overall bullpen numbers/statistic and most likely saying they have a good bullpen, just like how we do here with other teams and their relief pitchers/bullpens (Seriously, how many times have people said Barnes can't pitch under pressure/in tough spots this season, even though looking at only his numbers he is having a really nice year. You don't see those comments about other teams pitchers, because we aren't watching them night after night. We mostly have the numbers to rely on. Barnes most certainly isn't the only reliever who has good numbers, but fans see them in a different way). The point is, yes the bullpen has question marks, but no, it is not as bad compared to other teams as many on here think it is. We are comparing our own experiences viewing these players nonstop firsthand to mostly just stats and occasional video evidence of players from other teams. The first way of doing it is great to be able to completely support and root for one team, but it also means you see every last details that others may not see and that numbers/statistics don't show.
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Post by voiceofreason on Sept 14, 2018 11:32:29 GMT -5
Barnes being hurt sucks for the team but it also sucks that it gives the people who have been claiming the bullpen isn’t a problem an excuse when the bullpen is a problem in the post season. It will be: 1. Small sample sizes in the post season 2. Losing Barnes killed them or Barnes just wasn’t right coming back from time off. Barnes should be back for the postseason and there shouldn't be any excuses at this point. You shut down Chris Sale for over a month. You didn't get a bullpen arm because you didn't want a better reliever. The Sox core has been together for over 2 years minus Sale and Martinez. If this team doesn't win this year or next year, then it should be considered a failure and Dombrowski should lose his job over it, especially if the bullpen is the reason why the Sox lose. I'm sorry, but it is what it is. He has a ton riding on the next 2 years. There might be 4 teams in the AL to win over 100 games this year, so that isn't a great reason to keep him here. I give him credit for it, but it's not even close to the most important thing. Cora acknowledges this everytime he speaks too. Pedro take a step back from that ledge. Just because Boston teams have been winning championships at an unprecedented rate for the past 18 years doesn't mean it is the norm. The Sox went 86 years without a WS championship. Winning the division 3 years in a row is something to be happy about, winning 110 games is something to be happy about. Yes winning it all is the goal but don't minimize the successes that fall short. How would you like to be a fan from Detroit? Baltimore? Minn? It is like life, you have to enjoy the journey as their are no guarantees of success.
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Post by voiceofreason on Sept 14, 2018 11:37:06 GMT -5
The Sox bullpen isn't great but take a look around MLB, they are still ranked #5 in baseball. A weakness on a great team but not as bad a weakness as many here believe when comparing to other pens.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 14, 2018 11:59:43 GMT -5
The only bullpens that matter to compare it to are the ones they are going to be playing in the post season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 14, 2018 12:04:42 GMT -5
Barnes being hurt sucks for the team but it also sucks that it gives the people who have been claiming the bullpen isn’t a problem an excuse when the bullpen is a problem in the post season. It will be: 1. Small sample sizes in the post season 2. Losing Barnes killed them or Barnes just wasn’t right coming back from time off. Barnes should be back for the postseason and there shouldn't be any excuses at this point. You shut down Chris Sale for over a month. You didn't get a bullpen arm because you didn't want a better reliever. The Sox core has been together for over 2 years minus Sale and Martinez. If this team doesn't win this year or next year, then it should be considered a failure and Dombrowski should lose his job over it, especially if the bullpen is the reason why the Sox lose. I'm sorry, but it is what it is. He has a ton riding on the next 2 years. There might be 4 teams in the AL to win over 100 games this year, so that isn't a great reason to keep him here. I give him credit for it, but it's not even close to the most important thing. Cora acknowledges this everytime he speaks too. Pedro, I didn't respond initially because a well thought out response would result in my post having to be moved to another area as this is about the upcoming post-season roster. Besides I knew others would respond anyways. But now that others will wind up having their posts moved, so now will I. I'm not a huge fan of our bullpen. I'm usually in dread of it. I understand that there are a lot of bad bullpens out there. I see the Sox chew through those pens nearly day after day, but the post-season bullpens are better than the Sox pens and that's what counts at the moment. Dombrowski didn't want to spend talent to get a pitcher on the level of Hembree/Kelly/Thornburg. I think he should have. I don't think it's a tough level to beat. But I get why he didn't want to spend resources to upgrade that level. I mean were you really upset that Fernando Rodney didn't come to Boston? Or Familia with his checkered past? Or Osuna? I'd have trouble rooting for that guy and respecting the Sox there. Dombrowski wanted to upgrade the upper level of the pen - he wanted to try to upgrade Barnes or at least supplement him so he DID try to get that guy - he had a deal in place for Kelvin Herrera, but the Nats deluded themselves into thinking a hot streak was coming right around the corner so they backed out of the deal. You can argue that Soria or Kela would have been close enough to Herrera - I'd make that argument, but apparently Dombrowski didn't think so. He could have had Britton but opted to get Eovaldi instead. Can't say he chose wrong. I was hot for Britton but that guy can't throw strikes either at this point. And Eovaldi might just wind up being that 8th inning guy they were looking for. And even better they got a guy making his best start at the most opportune time - against the Yankees during the Fenway fiasco. In a way that could work out a bit like the deal Theo made 15 years ago with Arizona for Kim, who started for the Sox and then went back to closing by season's end. They had E-Rod out so Eovaldi held the rotation together and made a key start against the Yankees, and he has the stuff to be a dominant reliever, so maybe Dombrowski DID get his reliever after all. You can doubt that if you want and I won't say you're wrong. It's still an unknown and yes, that makes me nervous, too. But I don't see anything that resembles a "fireable" offense. Seeing what Buttrey is doing for the Angels I really wish the Sox would have given him a long look in June or July like they did with Brasier, but they opted not to. That could wind up being a mistake, but again - another guy who's "not proven" and the Sox have a lot of that already. Pedro, I agree with your bullpen concern, but I do get why Dombrowski did what he did. He did get a reliever ultimately - his name is Eovaldi. Let's hope his 100 MPH out of the pen plays up better than it does for Kelly - at least he's capable of throwing more strikes. And who knows? Maybe Wright to the pen will wind up an unanticipated genius move? Maybe Kelly's meltdown opens the door for Workman do replicate what he did in 2013? I don't feel easy about the pen, but I think Dombrowski was reasonable and the overall job he's done has been amazing. His true evaluation will come when the Sox have to deal with free agency (Bogaerts, Sale, Porcello, Betts, JBJ, etc) and if the farm system can be rebuilt in time to replenish the talent (bad luck with Groome, tragedy with Flores, and an extremely promising draft class this year). If he can't get that talent replenished then yeah, you can question his job security. But now, no way - despite some missteps here and there, he's been a lot better GM than I could have hoped for. I don't always agree with what Eric Van writes but his opinion re: Dombrowski put me at ease and I do agree with Eric's assessment about Dombrowski. He's pretty savvy and adaptive, too.
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